Nvidia confirms the GTX 580

[Pantsu]

nApoleon said it was only 15-20% faster in games even though the vantage score was high. In any case vantage scores mean little and can be easily fakes. I hope Futuremark will get 3DMark 11 out in time for the reviews.

[bamtan2]

OK, now that's seriously unimpressive if true... And I do not see how it deserves being called GTX580 at all... GTX485 at best.

gtx 285 was a great improvement over gtx 280. but there have been similarly named cards that weren't great improvements. and there are different-named cards that aren't great improvements either.

so it should be evident to everyone by now that deserves has nothing to do with it. these products get names based on market conditions.

AMD has jumped a model number, so nvidia will too.

[Sam_oslo]

gtx 285 was a great improvement over gtx 280. but there have been similarly named cards that weren't great improvements. and there are different-named cards that aren't great improvements either.

so it should be evident to everyone by now that deserves has nothing to do with it. these products get names based on market conditions.

AMD has jumped a model number, so nvidia will too.

Number-game has always been a nVidia-game in the past. But they have been "fare enough" to keep generation number (the first digit) for GF104 (GTX 460). AMD has started the number-game in this round by using a "fake" new generation number on 68xx.

But new generation-numbers creates expectation about performance/power, and I don't think any of them can stay up to these expectations for upcoming high-end cards.

[Manicdan]

AMD has started the number-game in this round by using a "fake" new generation number on 68xx.

it has to be a new number from 58xx because its not xfire compatible. whether or not they reserved the x870 value is a whole other argument, but it really needs to be a 6xxx class part, just because it really is a new chip.

[Dimitriman]

it has to be a new number from 58xx because its not xfire compatible. whether or not they reserved the x870 value is a whole other argument, but it really needs to be a 6xxx class part, just because it really is a new chip.

You know i never xfired anything always had single gpu but i was always under the impression you could crossfire just about any two amd cards? such as 4000s with 5000s? I remembered long ago that it was the whole shebang about xfire. I wouldnt build a mixed system but I thought this was true. So you can only do it with same generation cards huh?

[Sam_oslo]

it has to be a new number from 58xx because its not xfire compatible. whether or not they reserved the x870 value is a whole other argument, but it really needs to be a 6xxx class part, just because it really is a new chip.

As a rule of thumb, the top single-GPU of a new generation beats the double-GPU of last generation in performance/power. But usually it needs a shrink to do so. So when you hear 6870, it creates expectations, and you expect it to beat the performance of 5870 at least, but it doesn't, so how can it be a new generation?

I'm sure 6870 is some kind of improvements, evolution of 5870, but it's a "fake" new generation, becouse it doesn't beat it's performance. It should keep the first digit, just like GTX 460 did.

Wee need to have some rules and definitions what a new generation means. Otherwise these guys are going to marked any re-fresh, re-brand, etc .. as a new generation.

[RejZoR]

http://bbs.expreview.com/viewthread....ge=1#pid274471

Awesome cooler design. Something i'd buy extra for my HD5850 but all aftermarket vendors can offer are stupid dumb-the-heat-in-the-case crap coolers. I want a proper exhaust cooler like this. The one on HD5850 is virtually silent an still dumps all the heat out. Adding few pipes would make it even more silent and cooler plus making internals much cooler. I know coz i had HD4870 before that was dumping only half the heat inside, yet the case was very hot after hour or 2 of gaming. With full exhaust HD5850, the case is barely warm. This is certainly one of things i really like with NVIDIA. They seem to stick to this cooler design for good reason.

[Manicdan]

As a rule of thumb, the top single-GPU of a new generation beats the double-GPU of last generation in performance/power. But usually it needs a shrink to do so. So when you hear 6870, it creates expectations, and you expect it to beat 5970. It doesn't even beat 5870, so how can it be a new generation?

I'm sure 6870 is some kind of improvements, evolution, etc.., and has a better PPP(performance, Price, and power usage) than 5870, but it's a "fake" new generation. It should keep the first digit, just like GTX 460 did.

Wee need to have some rules and definitions what a new generation means. Otherwise these guys are going to marked ane re-fresh, re-brand, as new generation number.

9800 to x850? too long ago to remember
x850 to x1800? too long ago to remember
x1950 to 2900, not double
2900 to 3870, not double
3870 to 4870, not double
4870 to 5870, literally was double the gpu, yet only 80ish% faster
5870 to 6870 was less perf, but still a new arch

maybe the issue is that they should have called the 5870 a 5970, and the x2 should have been 5990, then we wouldnt have had all these issues. theres really only 2 things that increase performance, a shrink which lets them pack more into smaller sizes, or an architecture change. i really didnt want to get into an argument about the name given to a 6870, i only made that reply to point out it could not have been called a 58xx



and for xfire compatibility, they need to have the SAME EXACT DRIVERS when you download them. so if your searching for the next Cats, it will say 5800s which means all cards which qualify for those can work with each other. my 4850 cannot work with a 4770, even though they are near the same in perf. but it can work with a 4830, 4870, and even a 4890.

[Sam_oslo]

..
5870 to 6870 was less perf, but still a new arch

and for xfire compatibility, they need to have the SAME EXACT DRIVERS when you download them.

...

If i understand you right, any new architecture (even a GF104) should be considered as a new generation. It's wrong, you need a new level of performance/power (that usually requires a shrink) to call it a new generation. At least, as the minimum requirement, you need to beat the 5870 to call it 6870. Otherwise it's a fake generation.

Changing drivers is a problem created by driver development team, and it shouldn't be used as an excuse for creating number-confusion and disappointments.

[Manicdan]

If i understand you right, any new architecture (even a GF104) should be considered as a new generation. It's wrong, you need a new level of performance/power (that usually requires a shrink) to call it a new generation. At least, as the minimum requirement, you need to beat the 5870 to call it 6870. Otherwise it's a fake generation.

Changing drivers is a problem created by driver development team, and it shouldn't be used as an excuse for creating number-confusion and disappointments.

your not understanding me right then

read the last part of my reply to you
"i really didnt want to get into an argument about the name given to a 6870, i only made that reply to point out it could not have been called a 58xx"

6870 has better perf per watt and perf per mm2 and is around the same performance as a 5800s, it clearly cannot be called a 57xx or 58xx or 59xx. so it has to be 6xxx. which number under 6xxx i honestly do not care, and i will not get into a discussion about it, because its 99% subjective and everyone has their own opinion and i let them have it.

[RaV[666]]

I'm sure 6870 is some kind of improvements, evolution, etc.., and has a better PPP(performance, Price, and power usage) than 5870, but it's a "fake" new generation. It should keep the first digit, just like GTX 460 did.

Well, no .
A year ago AMD introduced 5xxx series, with 5800 first than 57xx etc, Exactly like nvidia did with GTX 480 and 460 few months ago.5xxx series and fermi series were based on same architectures, thats why same numbering scheme.
Now a year later AMD STARTED to introduce 6xxx series, with 68xx being the first, but NOT the most powerfull in the series.
68xx has many changes since cypress, new tesselator, improved AF, new AA method, better power efficiency,new display port and others.Thats why its a NEW series.
As to the debacle about numbering scheme any sane person only is miffed about move from x7xx to x8xx.
There are many ways to look at it, but it is has many differentiating factors from x7xx series, as in 128bit to 256bit move and overall higher BOM costs and in reality different market segment.In reality it aint a successor to 5770 and also not to the 5870.Taking into consideration PRICE POINT and all this info, change is kind of justified.AMD is going back to high end big chip fight which they werent in from 2900 days.And then it was called 2900.

You cant call it "fake", because it isnt.Its new, new chip, new features, and a WHOLE NEW lineup.
In this NEW LINEUP, cayman will be much faster than cypress, and even more differentiated from cypress.
Nvidia on the other hand, is pulling new name with no new features, hopefully a new chip.But thats not been proved for now.Theyre doing this, to have a "new" name because amd has one already.
If its a new chip and not just a respin, its still less evil than 2 to 3 series move, or 88xx to 98xx move tho.

Once again youre stating your own, misinformed opinion as "facts".
And wheres this your "a new architecture needs new process" thing gone ? Cos its about nvidia this time ?

[Sam_oslo]

your not understanding me right then

read the last part of my reply to you
"i really didnt want to get into an argument about the name given to a 6870, i only made that reply to point out it could not have been called a 58xx"

6870 has better perf per watt and perf per mm2 and is around the same performance as a 5800s, it clearly cannot be called a 57xx or 58xx or 59xx. so it has to be 6xxx. which number under 6xxx i honestly do not care, and i will not get into a discussion about it, because its 99% subjective and everyone has their own opinion and i let them have it.

I hear you, but you are defending AMD for starting this mess with fake new generation. You are saying it's OK to fool and disappoint people who think they are getting a new generation.
By your logic, GTX 460 should be a new generation too. Why couldn't AMD call it 5875?

AMD has started a messy number game, with a lot of confusions, broken expectations, and fooling people, and you are defending it.

[Zloyd]

So basically this is going to be equal to cayman , nice gpu wars on the horizon hope they get really aggresive with the pricing

[Oztopher]

Shifting the naming scheme up 100 isn't exactly messy. Anyone who rushes out to buy a 6870 to replace their 5870 obviously haven't done their research, it's their own fault if they were disappointed.

GTX 580 looks interesting, glad to see nvidia are not letting ATI rule them, good news for everyone in terms of pricing.

In my eyes, ATI have had nvidia running around for a while now though, they have been very strict with their generations, i.e. 3xxx, 4xxx to 5xxx have all been fairly straight forward, clean, and in proportion with each other (minus the 4890). Where as nvidia have always had to chop and change to compete (and doing well might i add). My opinion anyway.

[Manicdan]

I hear you, but you are defending AMD for starting this mess with fake new generation. You are saying it's OK to fool and disappoint people who think they are getting a new generation.
By your logic, GTX 460 should be a new generation too. Why couldn't AMD call it 5875?

AMD has started a messy number game, with a lot of confusions, broken expectations, and fooling people, and you are defending it.

because all 5800s are xfire compatible, its not part of the series and that rule has been standard for quite some time now. and its a good rule since it makes things very simple for consumers.

reasons why your misinterpretation of my logic is wrong:

1) 460 is below the 470/480, thus does not need to have a new series, there is a gap where the 460 fits in price and perf
2) the 470/480 are still be produced, while the 260 is not, so the 460 would not have made sense as a "570" since 470s will continue to be on the shelf after the release of the.

in a few months there will be no fools. people should not see a 5870 next to a 6870 on the shelf. and people who can afford to buy a 300$ video card each year deserves to screw up by not reading a single thing or asking a friend. one reason i think they didnt go with 6770 was because the 5770 will still be sold for a little while longer, and didnt want people wondering why the same thing from 2 different generations are out there, but with way different prices.

i could write pages about different concepts for reasoning of their naming history, and pages more on ideas about where things are headed based only on process sizes and release dates. but its mostly pointless considering very little is even used as logical reasons why, and the rest is pure speculation.

[MrMojoZ]

but its mostly pointless considering very little is even used as logical reasons why, and the rest is pure speculation.

You just described the fanboy reality. Be wary of its inhabitants.

[Hey Zeus]

GTX 580 @ 772/1544/2004MHz ? 64TMU


GTX 480 @ 925/1850/1950 MHz with 260.99 WHQL


http://www.chiphell.com/forum.php?mo...%2F%3D1&page=4

Well hello there

[zerazax]

You just described the fanboy reality. Be wary of its inhabitants.

With that kind of "logic" being thrown out there for naming, and calling it "fake" naming, I don't even know why we bother reading the posts

[Xoulz]

I hear you, but you are defending AMD for starting this mess with fake new generation. You are saying it's OK to fool and disappoint people who think they are getting a new generation.
By your logic, GTX 460 should be a new generation too. Why couldn't AMD call it 5875?

AMD has started a messy number game, with a lot of confusions, broken expectations, and fooling people, and you are defending it.

Dude, will you stop?

Nobody is getting fooled except you! You are the ONLY person on these forums that doesn't understands that the 5800 series is EOL.

[kadozer]

Dude, will you stop?

Nobody is getting fooled except you! You are the ONLY person on these forums that doesn't understands that the 5800 series is EOL.

Don't forget those poor chaps at Best Buy and other retail stores. Anyone spending couple hundred dollars on something without research deserves no sympathy.

[Flying duck]

Personally I think that Sam_oslo fella is a funny guy...

[Vipeax]

Can't want for the outcome....
AMD, who had the low power usage with nice performance, is going GTX 470/GTX 480 style.
nVidia, who had the high power usage with great performance, is (likely) going 5890 style (using 5890 cause it would be more like a 4890 than a 4870, bit more power usage than usual, but not as high as GTX 480).

Who has mastered 40nm more? We will know it in less than a month.

I must admit that I hope Cayman wins this one. Surround would require 2 cards, SLI compatible motherboard and use a lot of power (say 750 Watts for 2 GTX 580s & 3 monitors). With the AMD solution only needing 1 card, it does have a benefit when the high-end are really power hungry.

[Hey Zeus]

Don't forget those poor chaps at Best Buy and other retail stores. Anyone spending couple hundred dollars on something without research deserves no sympathy.

Love how best buy has the 460 for 300 dollars

[DilTech]

I must admit that I hope Cayman wins this one. Surround would require 2 cards, SLI compatible motherboard and use a lot of power (say 750 Watts for 2 GTX 580s & 3 monitors). With the AMD solution only needing 1 card, it does have a benefit when the high-end are really power hungry.

I'm seriously hoping for a situation of the 2 cards trading blows. I pray I'm not the only one on these forums hoping for such an occasion. When the cards trade blows, that's when we see the real price war, sort of like what we're seeing now with the GTX 470, GTX 460, and I'm sure the 6850 and 6870 will have no choice but to soon follow suit.

I don't care what brand can say they are on top, because if it forces a price war then WE'RE the ones on top. That, my friend, is when things are a win for us.... the consumer.

[Rai]

I hear you, but you are defending AMD for starting this mess with fake new generation. You are saying it's OK to fool and disappoint people who think they are getting a new generation.
By your logic, GTX 460 should be a new generation too. Why couldn't AMD call it 5875?

AMD has started a messy number game, with a lot of confusions, broken expectations, and fooling people, and you are defending it.

Sorry but you're logic is off.

By that logic the 5770 should have been called the 6770, and the 5670 should have been called the 7670. The 5570 the 8570 etc. The GTX 460 is Nvidia's FIRST generation DX 11 midstream part. It took Nvidia a very long time to roll out a top to bottom product stack of the 400series, but that's all they are, 1 line up/1 gen.

Do you not understand that the 5700series and the 5800 series are materially different, yet share the same first digit as they are part of the larger 5000 series line up?

AMD have STARTED to intro their 2nd Gen DX11 parts, the 6000 series, the first of which are the 6800 series. Next up are the 6900 series, also part of the 2nd gen dx11 line up.