AMD Radeon HD 6870 and HD 6850 confirmed to be launched on 22.10.2010

[ripken204]

I guess its time for AMD to make some money on their graphics division?

If they decide to take it easy then nvidia will have a chance to come up with things to kill amd. now is the time for amd to go full speed ahead and kill nvidia while keeping customers happy and gaining market share.

[tajoh111]

What we are forgetting are also the R&D costs for AMD compared to Nvidia.

I'm not saying that I can afford and like costly VGA's, but it seems to me they AMD is lately spending more on product development then Nvidia. What I have in mind is the fact that Nvidia already has problems competing with HD 5000 and AMD is launching HD 6000. What did McVidia do in their prime time?

Rename, re-brand and cash-in on the same architecture. I guess its time for AMD to make some money on their graphics division?

I don't know about lately. They spend 210 million last quarter and AMD spent 369 million for both their CPU division, GPU division and whatever else they may have.

Well, 8600 GT wasn't a highend card, and that didn't stop it being priced at US$ 200+. The difference is, while Bart would be at worst half of Cayman & performs quite handsomely (around last gen top end single GPU card), G84 was a quarter of G80, the performance sucked bad yet nVidia had no problem putting it as their midrange card. OTOH, i think ATi would give better value, performance/$, in this gen compared to the last, while the card is still made in the same process node, something that isn't easy to pull, compared to spewing FUDs out of people's rear.



You tell us nothing but FUDs throughout the ordeal. But it's okay, we'll see the truth in the end. I hope you'll be man enough to admit your wrong prediction is things unveiled not the way you described. I know i will give AMD their fair share of lashing & scolding if these new gen cards turn out to give less value compared to last gen & if they pull a renaming BS over HD 5770. Resegmenting & realigning the name for this new gen, while confusing and could be annoying, will not bother me at all if it's priced all right & the performance is satisfying.



Now, that's quite surprising, but we'll see. A card based on 230 mm^2 chip shouldn't cost all that high (GTS 450 says so), so the pricing will reflect the products positioning & performance in the market, plus the saving/added value for customer with this new gen.



While i don't know the truth either way, the price is very much within reason with the variable that we know, chip size, VRAM capacity, PCB design. Whether it will give the right amount of performance for the price it commands, the market will be the judge. Like some other members comment, this chip certainly brings added efficiency while still built in the same process node (IF the performance leaks are correct), now it's up to AMD how much saving that they would put into their own coffer, and what portion goes to the consumers.



GF 104 is 367 mm^2 mm by people who has broke the card and measured it themselves. Judging from GF 106 & GF 108 sizes, i think they're correct & more believable.



Yes, i also thought that indeed nVidia has better contract, but how significant & extensive it is, we can't really tell. One thing for sure, AMD will have the pleasure of market choices beetween TSMC vs GloFo, being an ordinary, unpreferred costumer of TSMC, something that nVidia won't have with their preferred status.

And also yes, GTX 460s weren't full fledged chip cards, but we haven't seen the imaginary full fledged product in the market, have we ? Until then, it's nVidia's duty to prove that creating such product is feasible & doable within technical & economical constraint, outside that, just the noise of fanbois blabbering & forum bantering.



You're right buddy, though with the resegmenting & name realigning + market competitive environment + still built using the same process node, we can't expect the exact same price structure compared to last gen cards. Can we expect the added value, performance/$ for the consumers ? yes, i think we could.

Man, I can't believe you have such optimism from AMD, it's extreme.

Picking the side that appears the most in AMD favor.

The 6870 is as fast or faster than 5870.
The 6870 will be priced at 200 dollars.
Their is nothing wrong with the renaming.

How can you have such unwavering optimism?

AMD is going to price these to make max profit and that means barts xt is going to be higher than 215. The only way bart xt get near 200 is if it performs much more similar to the 5850 than the 5870 and even then, AMD is still more likely to price it at 250. The european leaked priced seem to indicate a 250 price.

[bamtan2]

if they decide to take it easy then nvidia will have a chance to come up with things to kill amd. Now is the time for amd to go full speed ahead and kill nvidia while keeping customers happy and gaining market share.

klsdflakfhlkasfhalksfhaflskkdfslksdklsghlksgdsdkgl klsdg

[Manicdan]

I don't know about lately. They spend 210 million last quarter and AMD spent 369 million for both their CPU division, GPU division and whatever else they may have.

does nvidia RnD go to things like TWIMTBP involvements? or is it strictly silicon and nothing else

[[XC] Synthetickiller]

I wonder how the 6870 will compare to a gtx470? Mine doesn't clock well....

[Chumbucket843]

What we are forgetting are also the R&D costs for AMD compared to Nvidia.

I'm not saying that I can afford and like costly VGA's, but it seems to me they AMD is lately spending more on product development then Nvidia. What I have in mind is the fact that Nvidia already has problems competing with HD 5000 and AMD is launching HD 6000. What did McVidia do in their prime time?

Rename, re-brand and cash-in on the same architecture. I guess its time for AMD to make some money on their graphics division?

actually it is highly unlikely that ATi spends more on R&D. nvidia's R&D expenditures are almost as much as ATi's revenue and nvidia's revenue is still ~3x that of ATi.

[Eagleclaw]

Yes you are correct.

My "guesses" were based on a bread crumb trail I have been following.

Your numbers could be spot on and mine could be way off.

that is not why they are releasing it.

they price things to make money. that is it.

not to compete with nvidia. not to take sales from nvidia. not to beat nvidia.

they price things to make lots of money.

and a new product with new features that is roughly the same performance of an old expensive product, guess what that means. that means no low prices, geniuses. that means something like $250 and $300.

[generics_user]

please release these cards so i can stop following this discussion...

[Glow9]

the 6870 is as fast or faster than 5870.
The 6870 will be priced at 200 dollars.

[Jowy Atreides]

please release these cards so i can stop following this discussion...

Gotta love ashens

[RaV[666]]

Their is nothing wrong with the renaming.

Is there some new info ? What parts have been REnamed ?

[RPGWiZaRD]

Was away from this thread for one day and it's already filled 2 pages with speculation/crap.

OK since I got here I may throw my final estimates as well b4 they show up in US:

Pricing:

HD6850: $199
HD6870: $249
HD6950: $349
HD6970: $449~499 (lack of availability can drive prices up a bit)
HD6990: $649~699 (lack of availability can drive prices up a bit)

-------

Performance:

HD6850: ~10% average advantage above GTX 460 1GB non-OC versions
HD6870: ~GTX 470 performance / in between HD5850 & HD5870
HD6950: ~10% ahead of HD5870 in avg
HD6970: 10~15% slower than HD 5970 in avg / 10~15% faster than GTX 480
HD6990: 30~40% ahead of HD5970 in avg.

The most logical guess I can make.

[BababooeyHTJ]

that is not why they are releasing it.

they price things to make money. that is it.

not to compete with nvidia. not to take sales from nvidia. not to beat nvidia.

they price things to make lots of money.

and a new product with new features that is roughly the same performance of an old expensive product, guess what that means. that means no low prices, geniuses. that means something like $250 and $300.

So they are releasing the 6xxx series to continue to let GTX460 eat into their sales? Lets face it none of these features are worth upgrading over for the mainstream user. At those prices AMD won't be putting any pressure on GTX460 and despite rumors (the charts posted recently) will just continue to compete with GTX470.

[Aten-Ra]

OK since I got here I may throw my final pricing estimate as well b4 they show up in US:

HD6850: $199
HD6870: $249
HD6950: $349
HD6970: $449~499 (lack of availability can drive prices up a bit)
HD6990: $649~699 (lack of availability can drive prices up a bit)

These prices will make GTX460 (and GF104 in general) life much easier

My guess will be $140-150 for 6850 and $180-199 for 6870

[spursindonesia]

Man, I can't believe you have such optimism from AMD, it's extreme.

I want the industry to move forward technology speaking, and bring more value to consumers, so yes if that's extreme optimism for you, so be it. I had as much optimism in the past, it rewarded nicely in ATi R300, nVidia G80, and Intel Conroe cases, didn't happen so nicely in ATi R600, AMD Phenom I cases, but i'm a positive person in this matter, i'll leave it at that.

Picking the side that appears the most in AMD favor.

Why should i pick any side unless they give the best benefit for me as CONSUMER ? I'm not in any way related to AMD, and my allegiance in graphic accelerator changes from time to time, depending which IHV gave me the best value for my hard earned $$.

The 6870 is as fast or faster than 5870.

The sentence " The difference is, while Bart would be at worst half of Cayman & performs quite handsomely (around last gen top end single GPU card)" that you interpreted as saying Bart XT will be as fast nor faster as Cypress XT, well, it was your own negative perspective that took control. "Around" doesn't mean EXACTLY as fast or faster, does it ? It can be overall slightly slower while as fast in some scenarios that favor this new gen cards. Are we in the same boat now ? I'm not that optimist somehow.

The 6870 will be priced at 200 dollars.

LOL, where do you get that impression ???

Now, that's quite surprising, but we'll see. A card based on 230 mm^2 chip shouldn't cost all that high (GTS 450 says so), so the pricing will reflect the products positioning & performance in the market, plus the saving/added value for customer with this new gen.

The COST means the cost for manufacturer to built this product, okay ? GTS 450 has 240 mm^chip & 1 GB GDDR5, but nVidia happily sells it at US$ 129 price point. AMD can price the card as low as GTS 450 if they want to, but i don't think they will.

The price will reflect its performance, AMD's strategy in product positioning against competitor, and their long term strategy for gaining market share, which is very important in this graphic accelerator bussiness (TWIMTBP, PhysX, features blocking craps should tell you exactly about this). I don't have a particular faith regarding the cards price, but i do share the thought of other posters saying that the chip & cards is slotted at AMD's weak price segment & it will be marketed mostly as GF 104 derivatives competitor. If Bart XT is around HD 5850+ performance, i hope AMD will price it at US$ 229 at most, while Bart Pro is priced accordingly (how far it's crippled against its bigger brother & how it fares against competitor).

Their is nothing wrong with the renaming.

This is BS, read again !

.....I know i will give AMD their fair share of lashing & scolding if these new gen cards turn out to give less value compared to last gen & if they pull a renaming BS over HD 5770.

And regarding Bart chip as the base of HF 68xx cards, that's not renaming, how can you rename something that doesn't have a name to begin with ???

Resegmenting & realigning the name for this new gen, while confusing and could be annoying, will not bother me at all if it's priced all right & the performance is satisfying.

How can you have such unwavering optimism?

How can you have such unwavering pessimism ? Especially against a party that has been quite generous in the past (RV 770) and delivering better value for consumers compared to competitor ?? AMD has built a decent reputation as good value provider for graphic card lately, i think they DESERVE the goodwill until proven otherwise. And no, you can't really use Evergreen strong pricing structure throughout its lifetime, considering all the factors & environment that affected it (fact was, HD 5850 AND 5870 was priced LOWER than GTX 285 at its launch while beating it convincingly, that wouldn't have happened if AMD is such a greedy bastard like one that is living in your head).

AMD is going to price these to make max profit and that means barts xt is going to be higher than 215. The only way bart xt get near 200 is if it performs much more similar to the 5850 than the 5870 and even then, AMD is still more likely to price it at 250. The european leaked priced seem to indicate a 250 price.

They want to make profit, sure, ain't no charity to begin with. But do they also want to gain market share for long term strategic goals ? I think they do also. I don't have a firm grasp of what exactly the price is, but i do think it would be totally a FAIL case for AMD if they won't address their clearly chink in the armor, 150-250 US$ market segment, while having such a potent weapon as a small yet efficient Bart in their arsenal.

Regards.

[Metroid]

HD6850: $199
HD6870: $249

The GTX 460 768MB has been selling for $169. The HD6850 has to be 20% faster to match. The HD6870 seems right at $229. Still knowing how greedy AMD is, I would say your prediction is quite right.

[RPGWiZaRD]

The GTX 460 768MB has been selling for $169. The HD6850 has to be 20% faster to match. The HD6870 seems right at $229. Still knowing how greedy AMD is, I would say your prediction is quite right.

Updated my post with performance speculation to give better idea of my pricing guesstimate:

Performance:

HD6850: ~10% average advantage above GTX 460 1GB non-OC versions
HD6870: ~GTX 470 performance / in between HD5850 & HD5870
HD6950: ~10% ahead of HD5870 in avg
HD6970: 10~15% slower than HD 5970 in avg / 10~15% faster than GTX 480
HD6990: 30~40% ahead of HD5970 in avg.

[Xoulz]

actually it is highly unlikely that ATi spends more on R&D. nvidia's R&D expenditures are almost as much as ATi's revenue and nvidia's revenue is still ~3x that of ATi.

ATi knows what AMD knows... shared R & D.

[spursindonesia]

Profit isn't just factored by how much margin you can extract out of a product, but also by how much units you can sell to the market. Pricing Bart cards skyhigh will yield nothing, especially for their longterm well being, if GF 104 cards continue to be the best value provider for mainstream gaming market. This is quite the truth, especially if AMD has cost leadership over its competitor and the supply is more forgiving compared to what was happening with Cypress based cards in the past.

Companies are greedy, it's still capitalism world that we're living in. But calling AMD greedy, wow, what can we call nVidia then ? Fermi has to fail so hard for 'em so they were forced to price GF 104 crippled cards so nicely for us consumers.

[Xoulz]

Profit isn't just factored by how much margin you can extract out of a product, but also by how much units you can sell to the market. Pricing Bart cards skyhigh will yield nothing, especially for their longterm well being, if GF 104 cards continue to be the best value provider for mainstream gaming market. This is quite the truth, especially if AMD has cost leadership over its competitor and the supply is more forgiving compared to what was happening with Cypress based cards in the past.

Companies are greedy, it's still capitalism world that we're living in. But calling AMD greedy, wow, what can we call nVidia then ? Fermi has to fail so hard for 'em so they were forced to price GF 104 crippled cards so nicely for us consumers.

Fermi will rock on, once it gets to a smaller node. But the whole company is trying to hold it together, until then.


If AMD releases the HD 6850 @ $179 (just in time for the holiday buying season)... Nvidia's stock will drop significantly. But I believe almost everyone understands this, save a few.

[kaktus1907]

Looks cool

[Nintendork]

A bit ugly with the red. I want to see the Sapphire Vapor-X one (that should come later).

[zerazax]

Damnit, just lost the pic, but Chiphell had a 6870 vs. a GTX 460 1GB and the 6870 scored on Vantage H11xxx whereas the the GTX 460 scored H95xx. Somewhere around 16-17%. GPU score it was like 9xxx vs. 10xxx, roughly 18% advantage for the 6870. So I'm guessing the 6870 being somewhere between 5850 and 5870 is about right?

[jimbo75]

actually it is highly unlikely that ATi spends more on R&D. nvidia's R&D expenditures are almost as much as ATi's revenue and nvidia's revenue is still ~3x that of ATi.

Q2 2010 nVidia revenue was 811,208
Q2 2010 ATI revenue was 440,000

So nVidia's revenue is actually less than half of ATI's now.

It's probably going to increase to 2x for Q3 again. Almost half of that revenue for nV is the professional market, the consumer market is in freefall.

[Jowy Atreides]