New rumor about ATI Southern Islands

[Chumbucket843]

Just shrinking components in a GPU with no feature or performance changes does not count.

Some Xbox 360 have shrunken GPU/CPU components, they don't count that as a new product.

no, that definitely counts as a genuinely new product. also i would consider lower power consumption a feature, which is why the 5870 is favored over the 480 by a lot of enthusiasts.

the xbox is not really a valid counterexample either. it's a console.

[Final8ty]

no, that definitely counts as a genuinely new product. also i would consider lower power consumption a feature, which is why the 5870 is favored over the 480 by a lot of enthusiasts.

the xbox is not really a valid counterexample either. it's a console.

power consumption is only considered in this case with new competing products when upgrading.
People will not fork out to replace a card with another & the only difference is the power consumption.

I would like to see how often people would change a 480 for another 480 just because one used slightly less power.

[MrMojoZ]

2900 Dx10 - 3870 Dx10.1.

I don't think anything you say or fact you provide is going to help here, they simply refuse to see the difference.

[Final8ty]

I don't think anything you say or fact you provide is going to help here, they simply refuse to see the difference.

They do when it suits them.

NV just has to change the PCI-E plug on a gfx card from 6pin to 8pin for them to see it as a new product & its ok for a new name.

ATi change some core elements in the GPU & they say its the same product.

[Manicdan]

power consumption is only considered in this case with new competing products when upgrading.
People will not fork out to replace a card with another & the only difference is the power consumption.

I would like to see how often people would change a 480 for another 480 just because one used slightly less power.

i upgraded from a 2900 to a 4850 due to power consumption, but it literally was saving me 3-5$ a month, so after a year the 4850 was getting close to being free. graphics wise they were too close to be worthy of an upgrade. and im glad i did it too, cause i skipped over the 5000 series and that 1 year is turning into 2 now.

however, people who bought a 5870, and plan to buy a 6870 without any research, honestly probably would believe in the placebo effect, and just think its 2x as good. (and in some dx11 titles it actually might feel that way too, which is why i find this 50 page thread really funny since theres no legit benchmarks)

[Final8ty]

i upgraded from a 2900 to a 4850 due to power consumption, but it literally was saving me 3-5$ a month, so after a year the 4850 was getting close to being free. graphics wise they were too close to be worthy of an upgrade. and im glad i did it too, cause i skipped over the 5000 series and that 1 year is turning into 2 now.

however, people who bought a 5870, and plan to buy a 6870 without any research, honestly probably would believe in the placebo effect, and just think its 2x as good. (and in some dx11 titles it actually might feel that way too, which is why i find this 50 page thread really funny since theres no legit benchmarks)

Your in the minority.
But the fact is there are more change than just the power difference 2900 to a 4850.
The 2900 was simply bad & many would jump off at the first chance they could.

[hurleybird]

so a 4770 should have been called a 5x70 instead?

I'm not defending anyone's naming scheme here, I was just replying to the guy who said 5870 -> 6870 was like 8800gt - > 9800gt, telling him that it was actually morel ike 8800stx - > 9800gtx. Read twice, post once.

[Manicdan]

Read twice, post once.

the last dozen pages is the same argument. i just want some damn benchmarks.

[Xoulz]

I'm not defending anyone's naming scheme here, I was just replying to the guy who said 5870 -> 6870 was like 8800gt - > 9800gt, telling him that it was actually morel ike 8800stx - > 9800gtx. Read twice, post once.

And? Either way, it's technically wrong.. the 6870 will be a different piece of archetecture..!

[blindbox]

They do when it suits them.

NV just has to change the PCI-E plug on a gfx card from 6pin to 8pin for them to see it as a new product & its ok for a new name.

ATi change some core elements in the GPU & they say its the same product.

So you're not pissed at all that 6870 has about the same performance as 5870, as long as the generation increase is not due to a shrink?
For me, a generation increase means a performance increase, that's about it. Maybe power consumption reduction is acceptable as well. If power consumption is half of Cypress, I don't really mind if 6870 has the same perf as 5870. I did say a power reduction would warrant a generation increase but as far as I am concerned, I wouldn't upgrade from 5870 to 6870 just for less power.

I'm pretty disappointed actually. I have more ATi cards than nvidia. Hell, I prefer ATi before nvidia, if performance is comparable (GTX 460 is *just* everyone's cards these days though). The good thing is, none of the renaming etc matters to me, nor anyone here when it comes to buying it themselves. I do have to keep watch when I buy notebooks though, they're renamed infinite number of times (nvidia being a worse offender), and I tried a laptop with 8 CUDA cores.. ugh. Then a 32 cuda core one (hell, branded as 9600MGT)...good, but 4330 is better. meh, I should've stucked with ATi.

I'm just hoping for rumours to be rumours. Anyway, sticking to my trusty 4890.

Or maybe I'm just about to get used to seeing ATi's performance leaps they keep showing.

[RPGWiZaRD]

Today my GTX 280 started to refuse to work with 3D/performance mode anymore and would always give me a textured pattern screen of doom as soon as I launch any game (or ATITools, Furmark etc) even below stock clocks so currently on my backup gfx card 7900GTO (wish I hadn't stuffed the 9800GT I got back from a 8800GT RMA replacement into my parents comp ). Buying a GTX 460 wouldn't be much of an upgrade at all and GTX 470 and GTX 480 are rather uninteresting to me and wouldn't either make sense buying a HD58xx card at prices STILL similar to its launch and so close to 68xx launch. Guess I just gotta hang in there for a while... better not be any serious delays... :s

[kgk]

Anyway, sticking to my trusty 4890.

I still have my 1Ghz 4890 that I bought for around 200 Euros. Didn't see any real incentive to upgrade yet. Really glad I skipped the 5000 series.

[blindbox]

Today my GTX 280 started to refuse to work with 3D/performance mode anymore and would always give me a textured pattern screen of doom as soon as I launch any game (or ATITools, Furmark etc) even below stock clocks so currently on my backup gfx card 7900GTO (wish I hadn't stuffed the 9800GT I got back from a 8800GT RMA replacement into my parents comp ). Buying a GTX 460 wouldn't be much of an upgrade at all and GTX 470 and GTX 480 are rather uninteresting to me and wouldn't either make sense buying a HD58xx card at prices STILL similar to its launch and so close to 68xx launch. Guess I just gotta hang in there for a while...

Haha, I know that feeling. Upgrading when you have a 4890/gtx275/gtx280 yet require extra cash for a >4890/gtx275/gtx280 performance is pretty sad

Just hoping that the least the 6000 series can do is drive prices down.

[zerazax]

So you're not pissed at all that 6870 has about the same performance as 5870, as long as the generation increase is not due to a shrink?
For me, a generation increase means a performance increase, that's about it. Maybe power consumption reduction is acceptable as well. If power consumption is half of Cypress, I don't really mind if 6870 has the same perf as 5870. I did say a power reduction would warrant a generation increase but as far as I am concerned, I wouldn't upgrade from 5870 to 6870 just for less power.

Okay, and what part of 6870 != top dog don't you get? If you want a generational leap, compare the 6970 to the 5870.

The entire hoopla around this is that basically AMD named the 5870 incorrectly... if they had intended to keep the $200-300 range reserved for the x800's, then the 5870 should have been renamed the 5970 and the 5970 -> 5970X2, as it appears they are doing with the 6900's this round with Cayman and Antilles.

And, if the rumors are true, the 68xx's are ~200mm^2 and higher perf/mm^2 and higher perf/watt than the 5850/5870, so yes, you're talking about a chip more like Juniper size doing what Cypress did.

Either way, I find it funny people are getting peeved about the card's performance based on:

a) Leaked Vantage/3dMark numbers, which have little bearing on real world gaming (and to boot, the scores weren't referenced with the same CPU/computer set up)

and

b) Projected prices, which we don't know for certain yet, which will be the ultimate factor

After all, who would be the people caring if a 5850/5870 replacement came in at $179/229 for instance? In that example, the people complaining would really only be fanbois trying to stir the pot

[RPGWiZaRD]

Haha, I know that feeling. Upgrading when you have a 4890/gtx275/gtx280 yet require extra cash for a >4890/gtx275/gtx280 performance is pretty sad

Just hoping that the least the 6000 series can do is drive prices down.

ATM I would be very happy with a HD6870 even if in my own guess it'll perform just slightly better than HD5850, it's the price of it ($250 TOPS or it wouldn't make sense) that makes it worth it and from a performance POV it'd still be a noteworthy improvement. It'll prolly allow some decent OCing too. A Cayman would look more logical change from a GTX 280 yes but I didn't spend a fortune on this GTX 280 anyway, it was bought 2nd hand for like 220 EUR. I think. It's prolly the last time I buy an EVGA tho, also had an EVGA GTX 260 SP216 OC (again bought 2nd hand) that got the same sympton as this GTX 280 and clocks just got more and more unstable until stock clocks weren't even stable anymore and only after maybe 10~11 months or so, ~15 months for the GTX 280.

[Final8ty]

1) So you're not pissed at all that 6870 has about the same performance as 5870, as long as the generation increase is not due to a shrink?

2)For me, a generation increase means a performance increase, that's about it. Maybe power consumption reduction is acceptable as well. If power consumption is half of Cypress, I don't really mind if 6870 has the same perf as 5870. I did say a power reduction would warrant a generation increase but as far as I am concerned, I wouldn't upgrade from 5870 to 6870 just for less power.

1) nope not pissed at all, die shrink alone is relevant if it does not offer anything different/new.

2) Performance or new features counts as a new gen, because not everyone needs more performance but may want new features.

What if shrinking was never an option that would not mean that there could never have new generations with more efficient architecture & features.

Too many people are hangup on the shrinking & that it alone defines new gen without any changes.

[demonkevy666]

So you're not pissed at all that 6870 has about the same performance as 5870, as long as the generation increase is not due to a shrink?
For me, a generation increase means a performance increase, that's about it. Maybe power consumption reduction is acceptable as well. If power consumption is half of Cypress, I don't really mind if 6870 has the same perf as 5870. I did say a power reduction would warrant a generation increase but as far as I am concerned, I wouldn't upgrade from 5870 to 6870 just for less power.

I'm pretty disappointed actually. I have more ATi cards than nvidia. Hell, I prefer ATi before nvidia, if performance is comparable (GTX 460 is *just* everyone's cards these days though). The good thing is, none of the renaming etc matters to me, nor anyone here when it comes to buying it themselves. I do have to keep watch when I buy notebooks though, they're renamed infinite number of times (nvidia being a worse offender), and I tried a laptop with 8 CUDA cores.. ugh. Then a 32 cuda core one (hell, branded as 9600MGT)...good, but 4330 is better. meh, I should've stucked with ATi.

I'm just hoping for rumours to be rumours. Anyway, sticking to my trusty 4890.

Or maybe I'm just about to get used to seeing ATi's performance leaps they keep showing.

it doesn't surprise me they said the next generation would be a hybrid design of current and new architectures

ATI cards are more versatility since all of them can do Crossfire X up to 4 card.

SLI only go's down to 450 gts and tri sli only starts at 465 gtx on up and 4 way SLI is for only two cards 470 gtx and 480 gtx

I've been looking over Nvida tesselstion and they get 99.6 % scaling for each tessellation unit in the SIMD arrry would should be next to impossible 99.6% for each one.

it's suspicious Scaling performance for that many units.

While and ATI unit is one gpu adding another is 1.9 times faster and another after that varies, but in heavy Tessellation it's prefect (2 5850 vs 3 5770)

1) nope not pissed at all, die shrink alone is relevant if it does not offer anything different/new.

2) Performance or new features counts as a new gen, because not everyone needs more performance but may want new features.

What if shrinking was never an option that would not mean that there could never have new generations with more efficient architecture & features.

Too many people are hangup on the shrinking & that it alone defines new gen without any changes.

3870 - 4870 wasn't a shrink ?
slight redesign and bump in size.
this looks similar.

[Final8ty]

3870 - 4870 wasn't a shrink ?
slight redesign and bump in size.
this looks similar.

As you said slight redesign, better AA handling ect....

[spursindonesia]

Okay, and what part of 6870 != top dog don't you get? If you want a generational leap, compare the 6970 to the 5870.

The entire hoopla around this is that basically AMD named the 5870 incorrectly... if they had intended to keep the $200-300 range reserved for the x800's, then the 5870 should have been renamed the 5970 and the 5970 -> 5970X2, as it appears they are doing with the 6900's this round with Cayman and Antilles.

And, if the rumors are true, the 68xx's are ~200mm^2 and higher perf/mm^2 and higher perf/watt than the 5850/5870, so yes, you're talking about a chip more like Juniper size doing what Cypress did.

Either way, I find it funny people are getting peeved about the card's performance based on:

a) Leaked Vantage/3dMark numbers, which have little bearing on real world gaming (and to boot, the scores weren't referenced with the same CPU/computer set up)

and

b) Projected prices, which we don't know for certain yet, which will be the ultimate factor

After all, who would be the people caring if a 5850/5870 replacement came in at $179/229 for instance? In that example, the people complaining would really only be fanbois trying to stir the pot

Hey, thinking alike are we mate ?

Not trying to make excuses, should the rumored resegmenting indeed happen, ATi will stirr the pot on their own, but considering the competitive landscape, i think it's too naive expecting ATi to downgrade a sweetspot, performance segment chip such as Bart into mainstream segment market as 67xx cards, with its own lower price basket & consumer expectation.

Unlike nVidia who can absorb thinner profit even slight loss in selling consumer graphic cards with below margin price strategy (367 mm^2 GF 104 chip sold as a US$ 160 mainstream card, LOL), so they can maintain the ever important marketshare, with the super profitable professional market control as counterweight in book keeping, ATi HAS to make a very profitable consumer chip, so that if the performance warrants the price, they can optimise the profit while still competitive enough to gain marketshare, though not in predatory mode.

ATi don't want a zero sum game with nVidia getting crazy in pricing, so expecting a Juniper price introductory level for Bart who matches las gen highend chip performance & grows in size+complexity, is very, very NAIVE in my book.

[ToxAvenger]

And? Either way, it's technically wrong.. the 6870 will be a different piece of archetecture..!

Allow me to introduce us all to the power of a name. If the successor to the 5770 is called the 6770, then it's a whole new architecture and everything is fine. BUT, if the new card is called the 6870, then it's a rebrand, and AMD is doing exactly the same thing as Nvidia did countless times.

Now remember folks, this all happens because of the name of the box. The chip AMD is introducing is the same.

[Sn0wm@n]

LOLl a rebrand is a new name without architectural changes .... nvidia didnt change anything so that's why we are blasting them .. and anyway we dont know the whole story about the 6k series .. so why dont we all let this thread die until its 100% official ....

[zerazax]

Allow me to introduce us all to the power of a name. If the successor to the 5770 is called the 6770, then it's a whole new architecture and everything is fine. BUT, if the new card is called the 6870, then it's a rebrand, and AMD is doing exactly the same thing as Nvidia did countless times.

Now remember folks, this all happens because of the name of the box. The chip AMD is introducing is the same.

No it's not. I hope you're trolling, cause this is seriously logic fail

[Lanek]

So you're not pissed at all that 6870 has about the same performance as 5870, as long as the generation increase is not due to a shrink?
For me, a generation increase means a performance increase, that's about it. Maybe power consumption reduction is acceptable as well. If power consumption is half of Cypress, I don't really mind if 6870 has the same perf as 5870. I did say a power reduction would warrant a generation increase but as far as I am concerned, I wouldn't upgrade from 5870 to 6870 just for less power.

I'm pretty disappointed actually. I have more ATi cards than nvidia. Hell, I prefer ATi before nvidia, if performance is comparable (GTX 460 is *just* everyone's cards these days though). The good thing is, none of the renaming etc matters to me, nor anyone here when it comes to buying it themselves. I do have to keep watch when I buy notebooks though, they're renamed infinite number of times (nvidia being a worse offender), and I tried a laptop with 8 CUDA cores.. ugh. Then a 32 cuda core one (hell, branded as 9600MGT)...good, but 4330 is better. meh, I should've stucked with ATi.

I'm just hoping for rumours to be rumours. Anyway, sticking to my trusty 4890.

Or maybe I'm just about to get used to seeing ATi's performance leaps they keep showing.

Why will you upgrade from 5870 to 6870 ? Offcourse it will be a downgrade ......if you want upgrade from the 5870, you will choose the 6950-6970 or even the 6990 .... It was same for 4870-4890 owners... outside DX11 they was no interest to buy a 5770 for replace the 4870 ... in general the new lower cards ( who is the 6850-6870 ) are rarely faster of the Top cards of the old series, but in general equal them..

Now upgrading from 4890 or 5770 for 6870 = will be a good choice. specially if the price is cheap. Having a gpu who perform between a 5850 and a 5870 for a price who should be around the 5770 prices is not a bad move.

[Erklat]

Lol you guys fed a 50 page thread with conclusions based solely on misinformation ATi themselves might be leaking.

I will not make any conclusion except I don't like the way they named their series. We were all kind of used to *870 being higher mainstream
thing to get. Reintroducing Pro/XT/whatever schemes is not necessary nor welcome imho.

So, based on these rumors we have atm, if you skipped 5870, but you want it's successor, that would be 6890?
Pardon me, I suppose this was answered many times, but I don't have the time nor will to go through 50 pages of speculations

EDIT: There I go, answered

[Iconyu]

Lol you guys fed a 50 page thread with conclusions based solely on misinformation ATi themselves might be leaking.

I will not make any conclusion except I don't like the way they named their series. We were all kind of used to *870 being higher mainstream
thing to get. Reintroducing Pro/XT/whatever schemes is not necessary nor welcome imho.

So, based on these rumors we have atm, if you skipped 5870, but you want it's successor, that would be 6890?
Pardon me, I suppose this was answered many times, but I don't have the time nor will to go through 50 pages of speculations

EDIT: There I go, answered

You mean 6970 right?