The GT300/Fermi Thread - Part 2!

[Teemax]

dude calm down, this is not that serious, we dont like re-branding as much as you, but the point is, we try the most we can to not get taken advantage of, but to be honest, in one way or another we all get take advantage of by companies, even the ones that research.

If you ran a company and someone put some papers in front of you with your debt and then laid down business models to pay that debt and keep the company rolling and one of those was re-branding, you would chose to do it too, based on how effective it is. Its business.

I know it sounds like poor logic just to deal with it, but unfortunately, its the truth, more importantly, you dont have to deal with it if you dont want to.

Your blowing this whole research thing out the water trying to make your argument sound full proof, it takes 10 minutes of research on a graphics card to find out a little of what your buying, rebranding, performance and what not, not an 8 hour work day LOL, and of course we dont do this for every little thing, impulse/convenient buying is in everyone, some more than others.

seriously, your saying you dont do this, yet your in this very forum right now, finding out exactly what fermi is, and im shure your not taking days off of work to do it.
and you saying your the consumer that would be tricked by this yet your, again, in this very forum showing your concern about re-branding on mobile chips.. Its your logic, that i dont understand.

Erh, don't read everything so literally. I wasn't apologizing for anything; and I sure as hell didn't take any day off

BTW, I'm not the one that suggests "throughrough research" before making a purchase like a GPU is necessary... A good and honest naming convention goes a long way in helping consumers.

[Teemax]

- There IS a hardware-based tessellator in the PolyMorph Mngine

Well there's a block called "Tessellator" in the PolyMorph Engine. The question is whether this tessellator provides its own muscles or does it borrow from the shader?

Do you know something that we don't?

[SKYMTL]

Do you know something that we don't?

You have to remember that there are certain aspects of the architecture that are still can't be discussed.

[MaadDaawg]

You have to remember that there are certain aspects of the architecture that are still can't be discussed.

Maybe so, but what is out there being discussed is pretty fascinating

[highoctane]

BTW, I'm not the one that suggests "throughrough research" before making a purchase like a GPU is necessary... A good and honest naming convention goes a long way in helping consumers.

1st what does an "honest" model naming convention for a graphics product tell you about the actual graphics product you are buying.

Answer, its tells you nothing if you don't spend some time "researching" to know/understand what it actually is. There's no shaders count, no dx capability, no core clocks, no memory info, nada in the name itself and without "researching" how do you even know what it is exactly capable of.

So now that you know the name of the new fermi cards without doing any research at all you must be able to extrapolate all the specs for all of us from the GTX480 & GTX470 because surely all the information you need is right there in the naming convention according to you....

[OutSider]

you are digging to deep in that research thing ... he is trying to tell you that for high percentage of customers its easier to go just by the numbers (highest model number =highest performance for them)

[highoctane]

you are digging to deep in that research thing ... he is trying to tell you that for high percentage of customers its easier to go just by the numbers (highest model number =highest performance for them)

Its not about research alone, its about basic human common sense and using the rock on your shoulders for something more than looking at model numbers.

There's nothing easy for a totally uninformed customer to go into a store and look at a shelf full of video cards with model numbers across the board and hope to make sense of model numbers alone to figure out what they want, that would be quite daunting if you didn't have a clue.

If a customer doesn't have a basic understanding of what they are buying what basis do they have to compare an item. Is a 5970 or gtx295 what they feel they need because they cost so much or what is the difference with the 5870 or gtx275. If they don't know they could end up with a dx10 card when they assumed they where all dx11 or even end up with a dx9 card when they where hoping to get a video card to allow vista aero theme to work.

All it takes is basic common sense to read the package, ask questions, or google for a few minutes, this isn't research for a thesis or phd.

How many people go into a store pick up the gpu box with the biggest or lowest number and simply proceed to the checkout knowing only the model number, who does that other than the hypothetical masses of zombie human consumers with no basic reasoning skills, seriously...

Why is the customer upgrading their video card anyways, I would wager most computer hardware illiterate folks never even open the computer case so much as upgrade a video card and those who know enough to upgrade their video card have the basic common sense to figure out what offers the best performance for their budget by looking at all the pretty graphs posted by review sites or even on the box itself.

Go fermi....

[GoldenTiger]

Its not about research alone, its about basic human common sense and using the rock on your shoulders for something more than looking at model numbers.


How many people go into a store pick up the gpu box with the biggest or lowest number and simply proceed to the checkout knowing only the model number, who does that other than the hypothetical masses of zombie human consumers with no basic reasoning skills, seriously...

Go fermi....

100% spot-on post .

[NapalmV5]

^^ same reason I'm ignoring it.

If nVIDIA releases a faster card, I'll buy it. As long as ATI has the faster card, I'll use it. Napalm, what gives? You usually have constructive posts.

youre right.. absolute no point in continuing discussion with certain individuals.. i did.. i was wrong.. wont happen again

sorry to all

[ElSel10]

Its not about research alone, its about basic human common sense and using the rock on your shoulders for something more than looking at model numbers.

There's nothing easy for a totally uninformed customer to go into a store and look at a shelf full of video cards with model numbers across the board and hope to make sense of model numbers alone to figure out what they want, that would be quite daunting if you didn't have a clue.

If a customer doesn't have a basic understanding of what they are buying what basis do they have to compare an item. Is a 5970 or gtx295 what they feel they need because they cost so much or what is the difference with the 5870 or gtx275. If they don't know they could end up with a dx10 card when they assumed they where all dx11 or even end up with a dx9 card when they where hoping to get a video card to allow vista aero theme to work.

All it takes is basic common sense to read the package, ask questions, or google for a few minutes, this isn't research for a thesis or phd.

How many people go into a store pick up the gpu box with the biggest or lowest number and simply proceed to the checkout knowing only the model number, who does that other than the hypothetical masses of zombie human consumers with no basic reasoning skills, seriously...

Why is the customer upgrading their video card anyways, I would wager most computer hardware illiterate folks never even open the computer case so much as upgrade a video card and those who know enough to upgrade their video card have the basic common sense to figure out what offers the best performance for their budget by looking at all the pretty graphs posted by review sites or even on the box itself.

Go fermi....

Why are people still talking about the numbers?

[dengyong]

Did everyone forget the first post in this thread.....

Originally Posted by Gomeler
Just as the title says, this is the Fermi thread. You find something you want to share about Fermi, stuff it in here. We don't need a new thread every day til the fictitious launch day.

Play nice or you'll get the hammer.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
Originally Posted by Serra
+1

Remember:
- We can/do track who writes tags and don't appreciate seeing them played with. Good Tags == Traffic folks!
- Let's keep things on topic. Or, as there is next to no info available, as not off-topic as possible. When a mod or admin gets grumpy and wants to give infractions or play with the banhammer this will be a popular place to visit as the last thread was like shooting fish in a barrel.

If anyone has links to nVidia they feel are credible / official news feel free to send me a PM and I'll review and toss it up.

[zerazax]

Its not about research alone, its about basic human common sense and using the rock on your shoulders for something more than looking at model numbers.

There's nothing easy for a totally uninformed customer to go into a store and look at a shelf full of video cards with model numbers across the board and hope to make sense of model numbers alone to figure out what they want, that would be quite daunting if you didn't have a clue.

If a customer doesn't have a basic understanding of what they are buying what basis do they have to compare an item. Is a 5970 or gtx295 what they feel they need because they cost so much or what is the difference with the 5870 or gtx275. If they don't know they could end up with a dx10 card when they assumed they where all dx11 or even end up with a dx9 card when they where hoping to get a video card to allow vista aero theme to work.

All it takes is basic common sense to read the package, ask questions, or google for a few minutes, this isn't research for a thesis or phd.

How many people go into a store pick up the gpu box with the biggest or lowest number and simply proceed to the checkout knowing only the model number, who does that other than the hypothetical masses of zombie human consumers with no basic reasoning skills, seriously...

Why is the customer upgrading their video card anyways, I would wager most computer hardware illiterate folks never even open the computer case so much as upgrade a video card and those who know enough to upgrade their video card have the basic common sense to figure out what offers the best performance for their budget by looking at all the pretty graphs posted by review sites or even on the box itself.

Go fermi....

While I grant that a lot of GPU users out there who go to upgrade probably are smarter than the average consumer...

You're giving consumers wayyyy too much credit here. How else would you explain Best Buy having $200 mid-range cards from a year ago... and seeing people actually buy it.

So many B&M stores prey on the uninformed it's ridiculous...

Like it's been said... think of your average American... then realize that he's only average and how many more are stupid?

And as technology improves/gets more advanced, the gap between the "knows" and the "dont knows" only gets larger

[LordEC911]

I remember one episode of this "vicious circle" a couple weeks ago. Somebody was making claims about the performance of the Fermi without having any documentation/benchmarks.

He was claiming boldly that he knew more about the Fermi-performance back in July than most us Know today, because of his "insider knowledge".

At the end he wanted to use the picture of his beer belly to prove his groundless claims about the performance of an unreleased product. Just because the claims for his "insider knowledge".

Any documentation or benchmarks that he could provide us...
Stop being a jerk to one of the few people that actually does have inside info.

People get mad that there isn't any leaks and then when people do leak info, they ignore it or attack it... Talk about a "vicious circle."

[highoctane]

While I grant that a lot of GPU users out there who go to upgrade probably are smarter than the average consumer...

Whoa I wouldn't call a gpu user smarter than the avg consumer, more hardware savy than the avg consumer maybe. More like allot of gpu users have an interest in computers while the avg consumer is only interested in getting on say the internet and could care less about the mechanisms that allow them to actually browse the internet or how the computer works.
Fermi

You're giving consumers wayyyy too much credit here. How else would you explain Best Buy having $200 mid-range cards from a year ago... and seeing people actually buy it.

The consumer is you me and everyone else, you were not born knowing what you know now nor where any of us. If you don't want to buy junk/outdated hardware its not hard to get informed before buying but if you don't care about the hardware you're buying it doesn't matter either way because you don't care. Hence you can't really blame a company for selling someone something they bought when they themselves don't even know what they want and bought it anyways.
Fermi

So many B&M stores prey on the uninformed it's ridiculous...

I would agree which is what I've been going round in circles talking about. If you want to make the right choices your only option is to be well versed in regards to the item you plan to purchase. Blame can go both ways for the consumer and the store but if the consumer doesn't wise up the store will give the consumer what they think they want with no questions asked. Then again if the customer doesn't know any better and is happy with their purchase in the end who are we to say they got duped. They may have gotten exactly what they thought they wanted because they really don't know the difference and even if they got the better hardware they probably wouldn't know the difference.
Fermi

Like it's been said... think of your average American... then realize that he's only average and how many more are stupid?

Most people here are hardware savy because they are interested in hardware in general, that doesn't mean non hardware savy consumers are stupid they simply don't share an enthusiasts level of interest in regards to their hardware purchases. They probably have other interests and think computer hardware folks are crazy stupid for spending so much money on something that gets outdated pretty much annually.
Fermi

And as technology improves/gets more advanced, the gap between the "knows" and the "dont knows" only gets larger

Sure but the "don't knows" don't matter because they don't care or don't care enough to know what needs to be known to be in the "know", so the "don't knows" might also be considered "don't cares" because it don't matter to them.

So we have people who are hardware savy that care enough to learn about hardware because of interests to make smart choices and we have computer users that simply want to use a working computer and don't care about the hardware regardless.
Fermi

[DosDuoNo]

Whoa I wouldn't call a gpu user smarter than the avg consumer, more hardware savy than the avg consumer maybe. More like allot of gpu users have an interest in computers while the avg consumer is only interested in getting on say the internet and could care less about the mechanisms that allow them to actually browse the internet or how the computer works.
Fermi



The consumer is you me and everyone else, you were not born knowing what you know now nor where any of us. If you don't want to buy junk/outdated hardware its not hard to get informed before buying but if you don't care about the hardware you're buying it doesn't matter either way because you don't care. Hence you can't really blame a company for selling someone something they bought when they themselves don't even know what they want and bought it anyways.
Fermi



I would agree which is what I've been going round in circles talking about. If you want to make the right choices your only option is to be well versed in regards to the item you plan to purchase. Blame can go both ways for the consumer and the store but if the consumer doesn't wise up the store will give the consumer what they think they want with no questions asked. Then again if the customer doesn't know any better and is happy with their purchase in the end who are we to say they got duped. They may have gotten exactly what they thought they wanted because they really don't know the difference and even if they got the better hardware they probably wouldn't know the difference.
Fermi



Most people here are hardware savy because they are interested in hardware in general, that doesn't mean non hardware savy consumers are stupid they simply don't share an enthusiasts level of interest in regards to their hardware purchases. They probably have other interests and think computer hardware folks are crazy stupid for spending so much money on something that gets outdated pretty much annually.
Fermi



Sure but the "don't knows" don't matter because they don't care or don't care enough to know what needs to be known to be in the "know", so the "don't knows" might also be considered "don't cares" because it don't matter to them.

So we have people who are hardware savy that care enough to learn about hardware because of interests to make smart choices and we have computer users that simply want to use a working computer and don't care about the hardware regardless.
Fermi

i really mean no offence here, but personaly i have never seen so many words say nothing, i see a lot of 'Buzz' words like 'consumer' and 'dont care's and dont know's'

heres what i think your saying in a few less words,

'uninformed people get ripped off'
'people like 'us' are tech savvy'
'we dont get ripped off'

and isnt that what the quoted guy was saying anyway?

[Teemax]

It's now officially confirmed:
NVIDIA is simply renaming their cards for us to have a ... healthy debate on xtremesystems. It's not a marketing gimmick, nor is it an attempt to boost the bottom line from a company with no real product against the competition. Obviously, EVERYONE is spending at least a few days doing their "research" before buying a $200 GPU, right?

A big thank-you to NVIDIA for providing us with free entertainment! In this economic crisis, we need more companies like NVIDIA

/sarcasm

[570091D]

It's not officially confirmed:
NVIDIA is simply renaming their cards for us to have a ... healthy debate on xtremesystems. It's not a marketing gimmick nor is it an attempt to boost the bottom line. Obviously, EVERYONE is spending at least a few days doing their "research" before buying a $200 GPU, right?

A big thank-you to NVIDIA for providing us with free entertainment! In this economic crisis, we need more companies like NVIDIA

/sarcasm

this really doesn't belong in the gf100 thread, perhaps a thread in the ati section would be more appropriate.

[Farinorco]

<<deleted by myself, I don't think I'm saying nothing useful>>

[Tim]

<<deleted by myself, I don't think I'm saying nothing useful>>

I wish more people would do that, then this would be a 1 page thread.

[Otis11]

<<deleted by myself, I don't think I'm saying nothing useful>>

[saaya]

You can't add bus width like that. AFR mirrors the memory for GPU1 in GPU2 so the bandwidth is still 256-bit effective, iirc.

is it? what really matters is the available bandwidth per frame rendered, isnt it? and for a dualgpu card that bandwidth IS double...
if you look at how dualgpu cards perform compared to single gpu cards of the same model and single gpu cards of the next generation with almost double the memory bandwidth per gpu and double the gpu horsepower per gpu... youll notice that dualgpu cards are a pretty reliable perf indication for next gen single gpu cards... not 100%, but a pretty good indication...

a dual gpu card is basically gpu raid0, you dont gain memory space by adding a second unit, but you gain bandwidth...
a dual fermi card thus has effective bandwidth of a 768bit gddr5 bus...
i venture a guess here that fermi2 and even fermi3 single gpu cards wont beat that :o

Nvidia, get the molasses out your ass. Seems the older your company gets, the slower it gets, the dumber it gets; beat you with the inside of a horses' ass.

i heard nvidia is notorious for not promoting staff, only if people leave and then get hired back they have a chance to sit in a more comfy seat or make more money... plus they are known to drive their employees pretty hard, 14+ working days... sooner or later that starts to hurt the employees performance...

Being informed/educated is a consumers responsibility, to think that that the consumer is not capable of making an informed decision by reading the box or ask questions of the product they intend to buy is ridiculous.

hey i totally agree... it IS ridiculous... but its the sad truth

About AMD copying Intels naming scheme I think it's because they want people to think that their 965 is equal to Intels 965.
Just like they did with the 3000+ etc trying to convince people their 3000+ equals a Pentium 4 3000mhz.

for the + rating from amd... no idea what their itentions were, but the idea behind the + rating during the a64 days was really good! amd never talked that much about it, but they actually ran a series of benchmarks, sysmark, office, excel, games, photoshop and a few others, and they based the + rating on the performance of a cpu in relation to an original athlon 1ghz (where applicable since it didnt even have sse)

so when amd launched their dualcores, those + ratings were pretty good... they didnt relate to games and other applications all that much, but for productivity they were pretty spot on iirc

I remember one episode of this "vicious circle" a couple weeks ago. Somebody was making claims about the performance of the Fermi without having any documentation/benchmarks.

He was claiming boldly that he knew more about the Fermi-performance back in July than most us Know today, because of his "insider knowledge".

At the end he wanted to use the picture of his beer belly to prove his groundless claims about the performance of an unreleased product. Just because the claims for his "insider knowledge".

the sad part is that i know you wont even apologize for these remarks once it turns out he was right...

I wish more people would do that, then this would be a 1 page thread.

yes and forums wouldnt exist, there would only be 1000 chatrooms on the whole net and 5 news websites... is that really what you want?

back on topic:
what do you guys think how fermi will scale cpu wise?
will it need as much cpu power as a 295 to max out, less, more?
and how tdp/temp limited will it be when overclocking it?

[SKYMTL]

i heard nvidia is notorious for not promoting staff, only if people leave and then get hired back they have a chance to sit in a more comfy seat or make more money...

Several of my contacts there (marketing, development, etc) have risen through the ranks over the years I have been talking to them so I don't know where you gotyour info from.

what do you guys think how fermi will scale cpu wise?
will it need as much cpu power as a 295 to max out, less, more?

As you increase the performance of a GPU, the CPU naturally needs to be faster to feed it information at a quick pace. However, as these GPUs quickly outpace game development, the CPU will continue to be a bottleneck all the way into high instances of AA. Luckily, it seems like DX11 has moved less emphasis off of the CPU which bodes well for the future.

and how tdp/temp limited will it be when overclocking it?

This really depends on how good of a heatsink NVIDIA sticks on it. I have a feeling though that the combination of 8-pin / 6 pin power connectors and the PCI-E 2.0 slot will be able to provide more power than even an overclocked GF100 can ask. Naturally, when you get into areas like voltage tweaks the consumption of any component will skyrocket.

[ElSel10]

is it? what really matters is the available bandwidth per frame rendered, isnt it? and for a dualgpu card that bandwidth IS double...
if you look at

No it isn't. With AFR each frame is handled completley by either GPU1 or GPUn.

And since the memory is mirrored for both GPUs, you effectively have the same amount, speed, bus width and bandwidth of the single GPU counterpart.

[zalbard]

hey i totally agree... it IS ridiculous... but its the sad truth

It's not just the consumers, also the shop managers often have no clue about various brands and models of hardware. Whenever I see one of them 'helping' one of the customers... I really wish I wouldn't hear what they were suggesting.
So no wonder renaming works for Nvidia so well.
Most people only look at the numbers... model number, price, VRAM amount, that's it. And a lot assume that the more they pay the better product they get... So there is a lot of room for ridiculous pricing, and people are more than happy to buy such stuff.

[prava]

As I don't want to dig into this useless thread...What's about GTX4XX? Wasn't it supposed to be GF100? Renaming again? What happens to GTX3XX, they just skip that number?