ATI Radeon HD 4000 Series discussion

[LordEC911]

Not only the fight between the GT200 and the RV770 (we reported) is interesting. We could bring out some information about the coming RV730. What sounds very interesting is the the 256Bit memory interface. In the high end area nothing special, but for the middle class the newest sensation.

The 600 MHz and the 500 MHz core clock is for us a little to less, propably the values are from a engineer sample or AMD think they can win some performance with the higher memory bandwith.

We can not garantee that these are the final specifications!

source; http://www.ati-forum.de/general/news...pecs/?29c56f82

Wowser 512mb on the RV730?

[mao5]

R870 is 40nm with 2000sp?

http://www.pczilla.net/en/post/16.html

[NH|Delph1]

Not only the fight between the GT200 and the RV770 (we reported) is interesting. We could bring out some information about the coming RV730. What sounds very interesting is the the 256Bit memory interface. In the high end area nothing special, but for the middle class the newest sensation.

The 600 MHz and the 500 MHz core clock is for us a little to less, propably the values are from a engineer sample or AMD think they can win some performance with the higher memory bandwith.

We can not garantee that these are the final specifications!

source; http://www.ati-forum.de/general/news...pecs/?29c56f82

256-bit is a giveaway...

//Andreas

[AliG]

so andreas any idea why they went with 256 bit with the midrange last generation but are giving 256 to even the lower end this generation?

[StimulatedBoy]

"We learn from pcinlife forum that ATI next generation flagship R700 lost battle to GTX 280 in closed doors tests.

Taiwan graphics cards manufacture obviously got both 4870x2 and GTX 280 graphics card samples for these comparisons. But as we told you before, we still don't know the specification of the test hardware and software configurations.

We hope ATI Catalyst Develop Team could do miracle to save Radeon HD 4870x2 in next gorgeous chips battle between AMD and NVIDIA."

http://www.pczilla.net/en/post/12.html

Any input on this? BS?

[Calmatory]

If they are relasing R700 in few months and not now, I'd suppose it has some problems. Drivers, design problems or anything else. Though I am not surprised at all if GT200 beats R700.

[Shintai]

so andreas any idea why they went with 256 bit with the midrange last generation but are giving 256 to even the lower end this generation?

Economics and GDDR5.

[Nuker_]

R870 is 40nm with 2000sp?

http://www.pczilla.net/en/post/16.html

Last gfx card based off R600 architecture, Then I'll wait for R900, which will again bring the glory of ATI premium graphics

[StimulatedBoy]

Last gfx card based off R600 architecture, Then I'll wait for R900, which will again bring the glory of ATI premium graphics

Afraid that ATI will be dead and gone if they don't come up with something really good very soon. If the Nvidia 280/260 is as powerful as rumoured, ATI is in big trouble. Only thing make them stay in business now is fanboyism and the fact that ATI got a free ride with Intel - Intel chipsets rock (and have CF support) and Nvidia chipsets (680/780/790) suck donkey balls...

ps. apart from that ATI graphics is a lot better in BF2 which is the one and only game I play...

[mao5]

internal competition?

Infernol

[largon]

Rob Halford,
Actually...
Performance of high-end parts means absolutely nothing for the GPU-companies for what comes to economics.

[Shintai]

Rob Halford,
Actually...
Performance of high-end parts means absolutely nothing for the GPU-companies for what comes to economics.

Revenue != Profit. A 8800GT and a 9800GTX basicly cost the same to make. Yet nVidia is scoring quite alot more money on the later in profit. If it wasnt worth it X2 and GX2 and GTX was dead now.

[ownage]

OH NOES!!!!
HD 4000 series will get GDDR5 Qimonda memory

Source

[largon]

Shintai,
Dunno what you're going on about - ofcourse the profit from single 9800GTX is greater than of a 8800GT. But you can be sure that the sales volume of 9800GTX (~$300) is totally insignificant compared to 8800GT/S ($175-200) thus the latter brings more profit in the end of the day. Unless you can post some numbers...

Selling G200s @ $500 (or w/e) will be very, very bad business for nV... On the other hand, HD4870 will retail at much lower price thus more people will buy it. Volume is what matters.

[Calmatory]

Afraid that ATI will be dead and gone if they don't come up with something really good very soon. If the Nvidia 280/260 is as powerful as rumoured, ATI is in big trouble. Only thing make them stay in business now is fanboyism and the fact that ATI got a free ride with Intel - Intel chipsets rock (and have CF support) and Nvidia chipsets (680/780/790) suck donkey balls...

ps. apart from that ATI graphics is a lot better in BF2 which is the one and only game I play...

So you think that the one who holds the PERFORMANCE crown is the winner? You think that the one who has the FASTEST card will win? Not at all.

Actually, again, ATI vs. Nvidia isn't same as AMD vs. Intel. ATI can actually deliver competitive products in the same price range. They might not hold the FASTEST card, but hey, how many people actually BOUGHT the GX2/X2 SLI/CF system? Aye, 10. How many bought 8800 GT/HD3850? Aye, 10,000.

[Shintai]

Shintai,
Dunno what you're going on about - ofcourse the profit from single 9800GTX is greater than of a 8800GT. But you can be sure that the sales volume of 9800GTX (~$300) is totally insignificant compared to 8800GT/S ($175-200) thus the latter brings more profit in the end of the day. Unless you can post some numbers...

Selling G200s @ $500 (or w/e) will be very, very bad business for nV... On the other hand, HD4870 will retail at much lower price thus more people will buy it. Volume is what matters.

There is a crossover point. The issue is not mainstream would generate more. But to say enthutiast aint highly profitable is wrong. AMD would want to be there aswell, but they cant really.

A 8800GT is more like 150-180$ and the 9800GTX 290$.

Asume the production price is about equal. Maybe add 10$. Then it depends what nVidia earns on a 8800GT. If the GT gives 10$ profit and the GTX 120$ profit you would quickly need a alot higher revenue. For Intel the 1499$ chip cost the exact same to make as the 266$ chip. Enthutiast part of the game is basicly like milking a golden cow. Its free more or less with extremely high profit.

Oh, and the ATI part still doesnt make any profit.

[adamsleath]

$150-249

[ownage]

There is a crossover point. The issue is not mainstream would generate more. But to say enthutiast aint highly profitable is wrong. AMD would want to be there aswell, but they cant really.

A 8800GT is more like 150-180$ and the 9800GTX 290$.

Asume the production price is about equal. Maybe add 10$. Then it depends what nVidia earns on a 8800GT. If the GT gives 10$ profit and the GTX 120$ profit you would quickly need a alot higher revenue. For Intel the 1499$ chip cost the exact same to make as the 266$ chip. Enthutiast part of the game is basicly like milking a golden cow. Its free more or less with extremely high profit.

QFT
And to repeat some old info. nVidia didn't make much profit per card on the 8800gt. They tried to sell those card @ ATI price levels while RV670 cards where so much less expensive to produce (almost 50% smaller die size).

[Shintai]

QFT
And to repeat some old info. nVidia didn't make much profit per card on the 8800gt. They tried to sell those card @ ATI price levels while RV670 cards where so much less expensive to produce (almost 50% smaller die size).

They sell more cards than AMD. And nVidias financial figures shows otherwise

Another example btw. 9800GX2. Now thats a heavy profit card. Maybe as much as 250$ or more profit per card.

[ownage]

They sell more cards than AMD. And nVidias financial figures shows otherwise

Another example btw. 9800GX2. Now thats a heavy profit card. Maybe as much as 250$ or more profit per card.

Ok, i'm a bit confused now What do you mean?

[adamsleath]

And nVidias financial figures shows otherwise

what figures?

shows

where?

[Shintai]

Ok, i'm a bit confused now What do you mean?

AMD(ATI) losing money and nVidia is basicly shovelling in truckloads of money in profit.

[adamsleath]

AMD(ATI) losing money and nVidia is basicly shovelling in truckloads of money in profit.

must be all those gx2's they selling ;
no, but i think it's because nvidia trumps 3xxx series. in mainstream & performance segments mainly.

and 4xxx will probly be trumped by nv also, boring as that is. spose ati will cash in on 4xxx for a while.

but amd making a loss could be good for that company as they can right off losses against tax - it's actually a machiavellian plot to avoid paying taxes amd makes heaps of revenue, and mysteriously their running costs still show large losses. AMD is actually a non-profit organisation and im sure there are plenty of tax exemptions that way

im not trolling, but the amd financial situation is rather bizarre to me pardon me if this has been explained before


there is profit sure, but there is bread and butter revenue from a customer base. no customers = no revenue OR profit. AMD has a lot of revenue, but the profit loss situation is ..............? in the fickle hands of the customers ultimately.

i spose amd want to turn a profit, but somehow i think it will be in the mainstream and performance segments rather than the high end, that can achieve this. the fact that nv invariably trumps any high end offering that amd brings forth doesnt help amdati

i havent seen discrete gcard sales figures from amd or nvidia, so i dont know what im talking about really :p

[Shintai]

must be all those gx2's they selling ;
no, but i think it's because nvidia trumps 3xxx series. in mainstream & performance segments mainly.

and 4xxx will probly be trumped by nv also, boring as that is. spose ati will cash in on 4xxx for a while.

but amd making a loss could be good for that company as they can right off losses against tax - it's actually a machiavellian plot to avoid paying taxes

Well in short. After all investment etc. nVidia makes about 500million in cash profit a year. ATI makes about 30million in loss. nVidia is even having a bigger quarter revenue than ATIs yearly.

nVidia uses 1billion in R&D. Thats almost ATIs entire revenue.

[adamsleath]

but total revenues for each company in the discrete gcard market is...?

nVidia uses 1billion in R&D. Thats almost ATIs entire revenue.

i'll take a guess then that nvidia's revenues/turnover of units is much higher than amdati's, but i havent seen any figures of total revenues for nvidia , but how does it break down ...like there are chipsets, discrete gcards, the cpu side of amd, etc.

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:NVDA
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:AMD

AMD:

Total Revenue 1,505.00 6,013.00 5,649.00
Gross Profit 628.00 2,262.00 2,793.00
Operating Income -264.00 -2,865.00 -47.00
Net Income -358.00 -3,379.00 -166.00

2007 total revenue: 6.013billion
2007 net income: -3.379billion


NVIDIA:

Total Revenue 1,153.39 4,097.86 3,068.77
Gross Profit 514.84 1,869.28 1,300.45
Operating Income 202.98 836.35 453.45
Net Income 176.81 797.64 448.83

2007 total revenue: 3.068billion
2007 net income: 0.448billion

wtf?

do amd losses go into gold plated rolls royces for all empoyees or something? wtf?

and yet the figures show that amd had twice the total revenues vs amd in 2007