GTX Corrosion

[Mekrel]

My loop has a copper top on it, never actually had the Aluminium top as part of a loop

Yes, but you've emailed Gabe for his correspondence to someone else's top in the past.

I would not say using Glycol is a stupid thing, in fact - I think using Glycol in a water cooling loop when there really isn't any need to is stupid.

After all, there are no aluminium parts that have a valid reason to be in our loops. Radiators are best when copper/brass, there are acrylic/delrin reservoirs that do the exact same job as the XSPC aluminium tubes and most blocks are made from copper and some form of plastic.

So surely if the plating on the GTX top is as good as Gabe touted, then Glycol based additives shouldn't have to be used?

Glycol worsens the thermal transfer of water after all

Again, if this isn't corrosion then why would you say it's stupid that he didn't run a Glycol based additive? If it isn't corrosion and it's a deposit from a radiator or other source then why aren't the users who've posted pictures of the GTX not having the same crap dumped into their NB/GPU blocks or anything else in the loop for that matter.

[IanY]

Oh... so if nobody else posts pictures of a normal GTX, then all must be corroded eh?

So... one DDC2 dies.. then another one.. then ten more.. then two DDC3.2s die.. so *all* Laing DDC must be absolute crap then, eh?

If your car manufacturer tells you to use Mobil One oil, do you go out and use Castrol Syntec or Shell Helix, even though both are just as good? What are instructions for ?

[Mekrel]

Where did I say all have corroded? I never.

Go back to my example above, why run the risk of making a product that potentially will corrode? I don't make water blocks, but I'm clued up enough to know that every one runs a different form of coolant and that making a block which won't corrode itself due to user error when it can be prevented is the right thing to do.

If you don't use anti-corrosive in a FuZion loop, will the FuZion eat itself? No - so which is the better design?

Great Fire of London, saw houses no longer made predominantly from wood because they didn't just simply say "You know what, sod it - we'll build them from wood and just pretend that no one can make a mistake with fire and if they do then tough it's their fault".

Why not design it so that it doesn't? So we have a FuZion block, that won't corrode and performs better. So again, remind me why the GTX top was made from Aluminium. No wait, I remember. So it could be died and sanded to match an engine cover.

Aesthetics over design when it should be the other way around.

Edit: You think that Swiftech advise using Hydrex because it's the only thing that will prevent corrosion of the product? Again, do we see D-Tek advising own brand additives to stop their block eating itself? I would imagine Swiftech would rather sell 1 bottle of Hydrex for every block they put out for turn over

So you know 100% sure that HydreX is different from the likes of Zerex or any other glycol based additive in terms of preventing corrosion?

[nibble]

This has me slightly concerned, but honestly I'd say it was most likely a rare case that the aluminium wasn't plated properly or it was damaged after plating/anodizing. I currently have a GTX in a box beside me...

[IanY]

I have asked this questions several times before. Hydrx is not regular automotive ethylene glycol. Its not the same antifreeze that is found in Zerex or Pentosin. What else is in it is a mystery to me. Never bothered to find out. What I do know is that I use Pentosin in my car because the manufacturer tells me to use Pentosin. I use Hydrx in my water block because the manufacturer tells me so. I follow instructions.

As to which is a better design, I would leave it up to you to make your own choices. My GTX outperformed my FuZion until the nozzles finally became available. Now, the FuZion outperforms GTX.

Aesthetics over design? I could care less if its dog turd cooling my cpu. You are one to talk. Look at your avatar. You even took to painting your mosfet blocks so that they can look like your NB and SB blocks ! I could care less if my water block had a contraption that looks like a vagina or a middle finger sticking out. The only factor I pay attention to is load temps.

[Mekrel]

So basically, you're touting HydreX usage as being the reason as to why we have corroded GTX tops without actually knowing what HydreX is?

So the FuZion out performs the GTX, is cheaper, doesn't eat itself even if you use a coolant not recommended by the manufacturer. Hmm, so it's designed better?

Of course the GTX Aluminium top was aesthetics over design, Gabe even said it was a set to match the Stealth. Was no reason why the GTX could have been made from Delrin.

There is no mosfet blocks in my avatar

Yes I did paint some MIPS blocks, but what has that got to do with the GTX eating itself? The paint was behind the O-ring and not in the threads of the barbs, so didn't come in contact with the water. I never even used those blocks, Tom @ ChilledPC did when he used them on my board to pull a 10s SuperPI time before the G0's were even out.

Maybe we'll see an innovative ApogeeGTX Twin Turbo with even smaller pins and a non aluminium top.

[IanY]

So basically, you're touting HydreX usage as being the reason as to why we have corroded GTX tops without actually knowing what HydreX is?

So the FuZion out performs the GTX, is cheaper, doesn't eat itself even if you use a coolant not recommended by the manufacturer. Hmm, so it's designed better?

Of course the GTX Aluminium top was aesthetics over design, Gabe even said it was a set to match the Stealth. Was no reason why the GTX could have been made from Delrin.

There is no mosfet blocks in my avatar

Yes I did paint some MIPS blocks, but what has that got to do with the GTX eating itself? The paint was behind the O-ring and not in the threads of the barbs, so didn't come in contact with the water. I never even used those blocks, Tom @ ChilledPC did when he used them on my board to pull a 10s SuperPI time before the G0's were even out.

Maybe we'll see an innovative ApogeeGTX Twin Turbo with even smaller pins and a non aluminium top.

Once again, I'm not the one who painted any blocks. I could care less if the blocks were doo doo brown and lime green or hot fuschia. I'm not the one who gets all hyped up about how computers look and take pics to proudly acclaim how cooling looking my computer is. It could be built inside a toilet bowl and I will gladly use it if it performs at its best. You even went as far to put EK barbs into your GTX to match your other EK blocks lol

Gabe already said that he won't make blocks with acrylic tops. Why he doesn't like Delrin is his decision. I could care less if it is made of cardboard, as long as its the top performing block. For a while it was the best block. And honestly, the price differential between it and teh FuZion has been inconsequential.. a mere $10.. or even if its $30, I could care less. If someone doesn't want to fork over the extra money, its not my business. My heart won't bleed if someone can't fork over that extra $10, because if money is that tight, then precious cash should not be expended on something as silly as water cooling for a computer.

Understand the electrical circuit schematics behind your motherboard? Understand the die structure and electronic connections in your cpu dies? Yet, you use your motherboard and cpu!

I don't have the inclination to go find out the chemical properties in Hydrx. I am told that the GTX works best when its used with Hydrx, then why wouldn't I use it ? If D-Tek tells me that their special coolant (not dye) works well with the FuZion, you can bet your ass that I will use it religiously. Otherwise, I wouldn't use a FuZion.

[ElEctric_EyE]

I'm going to speak clearly here for all the folks watching this, hide your kids, cuz it's rated R, that is Restricted.
Jedda, who do you work for?
Gabe works for Swiftech.
IanY prob worx for Swiftech.
Petras, well we know who he works for...
Mekrel is from Thermochill.
ME, I want the best product from R&D, not BS rumor.
IMHO, there is alot of UNprofessional behavior going on here. From my perspective as 3rd party, those who I start to go with and I see crap like this, I will never order from people that act unprofessional. Real companies let their products speak for them, LOSERS have to speak for THEIR products. So go on speaking CEO's, SPEAK, I CAN't HEAR YOU!

[Waterlogged]

I'm going to speak clearly here for all the folks watching this, hide your kids, cuz it's rated R, that is Restricted.
Jedda, who do you work for?
Gabe works for Swiftech.
IanY prob worx for Swiftech.
Petras, well we know who he works for...
Mekrel is from Thermochill.
ME, I want the best product from R&D, not BS rumor.
IMHO, there is alot of UNprofessional behavior going on here. From my perspective as 3rd party, those who I start to go with and I see crap like this, I will never order from people that act unprofessional. Real companies let their products speak for them, LOSERS have to speak for THEIR products. So go on speaking CEO's, SPEAK, I CAN't HEAR YOU!

WOW! You really don't have any clue as who works where.

Jedda is an Aussie and is nothing more than a consumer.
AFAIK, IanY does NOT work for Swiftech. Again, another consumer.
Mekrel, Is also another consumer. He does NOT work for Thermochill, that's Marci.

[ElEctric_EyE]

Ah, well thank you for that! Only because I am loyal too, for a good company that produces leading edge products. I am type A personality that will instantly trash a company that screws me too. I'm a n00b that has not been been screwed by any company here so far, but it is disturbing to read some of this BS. BS that I KNOW is NOT true.

[Mekrel]

Once again, I'm not the one who painted any blocks. I could care less if the blocks were doo doo brown and lime green or hot fuschia. I'm not the one who gets all hyped up about how computers look and take pics to proudly acclaim how cooling looking my computer is. It could be built inside a toilet bowl and I will gladly use it if it performs at its best. You even went as far to put EK barbs into your GTX to match your other EK blocks lol

Gabe already said that he won't make blocks with acrylic tops. Why he doesn't like Delrin is his decision. I could care less if it is made of cardboard, as long as its the top performing block. For a while it was the best block. And honestly, the price differential between it and teh FuZion has been inconsequential.. a mere $10.. or even if its $30, I could care less. If someone doesn't want to fork over the extra money, its not my business. My heart won't bleed if someone can't fork over that extra $10, because if money is that tight, then precious cash should not be expended on something as silly as water cooling for a computer.

Understand the electrical circuit schematics behind your motherboard? Understand the die structure and electronic connections in your cpu dies? Yet, you use your motherboard and cpu!

I don't have the inclination to go find out the chemical properties in Hydrx. I am told that the GTX works best when its used with Hydrx, then why wouldn't I use it ? If D-Tek tells me that their special coolant (not dye) works well with the FuZion, you can bet your ass that I will use it religiously. Otherwise, I wouldn't use a FuZion.

Newsflash for you IanY, this thread isn't about mine and your tastes in Watercooling, so please kindly get back onto topic about the GTX and corrosion. Have I ripped into you for wanting to TEC cool your stock PC? No, so kindly take your jibes elsewhere. You're acting like a child who can't deduct a counter argument and has resulted to little jibes.

We all know you like to buy into your brands, and call everyone else flocks of sheep - you don't need to keep reminding us.

I don't put aesthetics over performance, I put performance whilst still looking good:

• Painted MIPS blocks, no where near threads or the water channel - so no decrease in performance? Not that mosfets require a lot.
• EK barbs? So what? You're telling me that has decrease performance from other barbs? FWIW - I don't use any EK barbs either, they've been changed.

In fact, nothing in that avatar matches my current setup.

The aluminium in the GTX was purely for aesthetics, the block could have been bowed with a tough plastic. The aluminium was for dyeing and sanding to match the engine cover look.

Yeah it's plated, but it's not 100% infallible is it, else we wouldn't be seeing these problems. As far as I can see, you put Aluminium in your loop, you then have to add additive and decrease coolant performance.

Why not, just not put any aluminium in your loop and run water + anti-algae.

[Jedda]

I'm not going to post all his stuff. Maybe he will post it here.
I will quote his other relevant point though;

"I went to the vendor where I purchased the ApogeeGTX, which happens to be Japan's biggest specialist for water cooling and also the official importer for Swiftech stuff in Japan. Although he had more than 5 ApogeeGTX on stock, he offered me another waterblock as replacement. I asked him why, and he told me otherwise, I should wait a few weeks until he gets an "upgraded" ApogeeGTX version (?) with a copper cover . That made me suspicious. After digging deeper into this, he finally admitted, reluctantly, that I am not the first one with this problem. Obviously some Apogee GTX were returned with the same problem."

Beyond being a member of both fora I have no dog in this fight. Thought some clear pics might advance the debate. Silly me!
Maybe Alex's tests will.
WTG Alex

[IanY]

I don't know, man. Corrosion it is then. I couldn't care less. Other than that, PEBKAC rules.

And Electric Eye, no offense to you, but real perceptive there eh. I just said that the nozzled D-Tek FuZion is the best performing block. Does it sound like I work for Swiftech ?'

[ElEctric_EyE]

Yeah, time to go back on topic, who hijacked it?

[IanY]

I did. I hijacked it to respond to a very unwarranted cheap shot. From there on, downhill it went, but I didn't start it and I couldn't care less if anyone thinks its my fault.

[Mekrel]

You're not silly, I love debating

I do believe this won't happen if a coolant is properly protected with an anti-corrosion inhibitor to the right ratio. From what I remember HydreX is taken from the racing boat industry, so it wasn't actually designed as such to be used in PC water cooling, but what has been apart from the blocks?

Radiators are designed to fit into cases and be efficient with the flow/pressure levels we use, but the concept of radiators has obviously been around way before PC water cooling.

Tubing again, we use vacuum tubing and beverage tubing.

I just think the ultimate of ultimate protection should have been using a material that isn't as problematic as aluminium if things go wrong. A safety net if you will.

[ElEctric_EyE]

I don't know, man. Corrosion it is then. I couldn't care less. Other than that, PEBKAC rules.

And Electric Eye, no offense to you, but real perceptive there eh. I just said that the nozzled D-Tek FuZion is the best performing block. Does it sound like I work for Swiftech ?'

No offense taken m8, I was calling everyone out. Just sounded like a Swiftech trash session, since I use Swiftech and they perform for me and they are in my nic/sig, you call them stupid, you call me stupid. Dig?

[IanY]

No offense taken m8, I was calling everyone out. Just sounded like a Swiftech trash session, since I use Swiftech and they perform for me and they are in my nic/sig, you call them stupid, you call me stupid. Dig?

Yes M8, but then you wouldn't find me calling Swiftech users stupid, would you ? lol You do realize that I am a hyper Swiftech. Yes you do, otherwise you wouldn't have thought I work for Swiftech. BTW, are you registered on the Swiftech forum? Anyway, thank God my line of work has nothing to do with the IT industr, given the personalities here at XS.

[Mekrel]

It's not a Swiftech dig session, I've used the MCRES and loved it, I rate it as the best reservoir in the industry because it works well with it's mid plate and mounting options.

MCW30 ticks all the boxes of a NB block because it doesn't need to be complex and non-restrictive as possible with a varying mount for different motherboards.

I have an MCW60-R on its way to me because it performs well and Swiftech seem to release stuff faster than D-Tek, so if the new nvidia/ati cards need new mounting plates then Swiftech will probably have them out quickest.

I just think the GTX Alu top was a step backwards. Yes people should read instructions and follow them but that can never be guaranteed, and should have been taken into consideration.

As far as I'm aware, the plating was quoted as being mill spec, so I can't see why HydreX would be needed if it was that good unless Swiftech didn't fully believe there could be a chance corrosion would happen?

[IanY]

Let's wait for Gabe's response. Maybe tomorrow.

From now on, I'll just ignore all this b1tching about corrosion. Not my problem at all. I lose no sleep.

[CyberDruid]

Lol

I have 5 copper tops just in case I decide to use a GTX. I would not feel comfortable putting aluminum in a client build.

The Bowed GTX is a strong performer.

I have seen a very similar Galvanic Corrosion (often misnomered Electrolysis) in other "plated" aluminum blocks: specifically in Alphacool (read junk) GFX blocks.

Once the Coating has even the tiniest flaw the Galvanic force is so strong in mixed metal loops (without additives) that it will begin riddling the aluminum.

The large chunks missing are simly where the metal has literally dissolved into a chalky substance. The remaining aluminum is junk now...completely porous and lacking in structural integrity.

My god I love reading IanY when he's on a rampage

I should repost some highligjhts from his rebuttal...they about make me piss myself :

[Jedda]

I just think the ultimate of ultimate protection should have been using a material that isn't as problematic as aluminium if things go wrong. A safety net if you will.

Yeah, like Werner von B. said "Never put a human on top of a solid fueled rocket"
Its safe most of the time but not all of the time.
Never have liked the move to using automotive power symbols in IT marketing. Whether its swift's block or evga's board boxes they come over as adolescent and creatively Mother Hubbard's cupboard.

Hey, he's taking the piss, isn't he?
Nobody really mixes "self" with brand identification to that degree, do they?

[IanY]

You know... the more the aggravation with my "brand self-identification," it just eggs me on.. makes me all the more enthusiastic about being distinctive.. honestly, makes me all the more happy...

I guess I should just burn my video cards because the blocks are guaranteed to leak and kill the cards anyway. They are pure unadulterated aluminum.

Gimme the piss !!

Thankfully this discussion is limited to water cooling.. without politics lol

[Jedda]

Ian,
I wasn't refering to you. Twas the younger generation.
You're obviously not that short of points of self differentiation.

[disruptfam]

I'm going to speak clearly here for all the folks watching this, hide your kids, cuz it's rated R, that is Restricted.
Jedda, who do you work for?
Gabe works for Swiftech.
IanY prob worx for Swiftech.
Petras, well we know who he works for...
Mekrel is from Thermochill.
ME, I want the best product from R&D, not BS rumor.
IMHO, there is alot of UNprofessional behavior going on here. From my perspective as 3rd party, those who I start to go with and I see crap like this, I will never order from people that act unprofessional. Real companies let their products speak for them, LOSERS have to speak for THEIR products. So go on speaking CEO's, SPEAK, I CAN't HEAR YOU!

Man what are you on about???


what the hell is worx??? Slang....