Here's a little teaser....

[gOtVoltage]

Does 3dMark even install on x64 based OS's? I've tried to install PCMark on my 2x2218's running 2k3 x64 and it won't work. The only way I can run PCMark is to use a separate XP 32-bit install.

It works



P.S. Nice results every one ,Iwill be hoping AMD pulls through because i really want a 4core Proc that isnt INTEL!

[KTE]

Wow, very nice feedback guys!!

Dave: the 1.7GHz vs 2GHz comparison will be very worthwhile IMHO. Frequency scaling is already hot on the topic with tests so far showing k10 scales better than core 2: frequency scaling and socket scaling.

K10 is an architectural beast: if I was an engineer, I'd be damn praising the K10 just as Core 2 was to be praised over P4. I'm pretty sure Intels upcoming CPUs will be based on many technologies you see within K10 now although they are very risky. It certainly is weird but this independent core frequency/voltage control can also throw off quite a few more potential problems.

AFAI understand... processor mfgs don't release another core stepping (a re-spin will take 3 months at least usually) unless there's a good enough gain with the tweaks to make it justifiable. Am I correct?

And from what I'm hearing now, they're trying to push B3 out of the door as quick as possible late Q4. Must be something worth it then.

I know one thing for sure - B1 leaks a lot more current than B2 hence why it aint shipping.

Stephen: Nice work with the CPU .. but what about the low RAM frequency and it looked like your RAM was running single channel mode? Imagine if all but one of them was running at the correct frequencies just like the CPUs

[doompc]

Dave, if your board has the errata 281 workaround in BIOS it will work just fine.
The NB 200MHz boost on a dual plane board won't give more than 3% performance increase.
And I just can't wait to know how it performs

[dave_graham]

Wow, very nice feedback guys!!

Dave: the 1.7GHz vs 2GHz comparison will be very worthwhile IMHO. Frequency scaling is already hot on the topic with tests so far showing k10 scales better than core 2: frequency scaling and socket scaling.

K10 is an architectural beast: if I was an engineer, I'd be damn praising the K10 just as Core 2 was to be praised over P4. I'm pretty sure Intels upcoming CPUs will be based on many technologies you see within K10 now although they are very risky. It certainly is weird but this independent core frequency/voltage control can also throw off quite a few more potential problems.

AFAI understand... processor mfgs don't release another core stepping (a re-spin will take 3 months at least usually) unless there's a good enough gain with the tweaks to make it justifiable. Am I correct?

And from what I'm hearing now, they're trying to push B3 out of the door as quick as possible late Q4. Must be something worth it then.

I know one thing for sure - B1 leaks a lot more current than B2 hence why it aint shipping.

Stephen: Nice work with the CPU .. but what about the low RAM frequency and it looked like your RAM was running single channel mode? Imagine if all but one of them was running at the correct frequencies just like the CPUs

B3 isn't coming in Q4. wipe that off your "it's coming list." B2 will be Q4.

dave

[dave_graham]

Dave, if your board has the errata 281 workaround in BIOS it will work just fine.
The NB 200MHz boost on a dual plane board won't give more than 3% performance increase.
And I just can't wait to know how it performs

not saying it doesn't work, but the BIOS workaround does inhibit peak performance.

in order to respond to your next point, I'll need to do the adequate testing and comparison before I note the exact perf. increase.

dave

[F@32]

Reluctant to post info from Fudzilla, but here it goes:

Shanghai / Moscow 07: The fixed B0 revision, no B2

Back in Barcelona Spain, AMD officially said to the Fudzilla that the shipping Barcelona K10 is a stoning B2 revision but a few independent sources have confirmed that Barcelona Opterons 23xx will come as BA chips. Well AMD folks were wrong as B2 wont be ready till Q4.

The BA revision is improved and fixed B1 revision that is suitable for mass production. AMD simply couldn't launch the B1 revision as it was buggy. The infamous B1 had Errata 281 bug with horrible stream, integer and floating point unit performance and BA fixes it.

The B2 comes in Q4 and it is likely to save AMD's behind as it offers higher clock speeds of up to 3GHz and even higher.

So, the first Opteron 23xx at up to 2GHz won't be exactly the greatest thing around but at least it's a start.

Barcelona K10 launch version is BA

Does this sound right?

[zakelwe]

and your point is?

why don't you let the folks who actually know something about the platform get a chance to get test the processors out besides hacking through a list of "Well, Intel did this..." stuff? we get it, you're not impressed....don't really care.

i have been upfront in claiming that B1 cores with their BIOS workaround DO cause performance deficits. BA will eliminate that, so, why don't you shut up and let me (and S7) get back to getting the platforms in line. you don't see me crapping in your threads, so....please, stop trying to attack people.

dave

Dear Dave,


My point is that Intel Conroe was putting in great scores months before release even with new BIOS and motherboards. K10 doesn't do the same after release, what does that show?

You say I attack people, however I have only ever attacked the initial K10 results and said that "excuses" for it were not logical. If you want an example of somone attacking the person let me quote you on another forum:-

""i'm a liar at Xtremesys by a few uninformed imbeciles but, whatever....""

Nobody called you a liar, we were trying to work out the steppings by asking questions to try and get to the bottom of it. Nice to know what you actually think of us when you are not here though.....

And as for you claim about :-


"i have been upfront in claiming that B1 cores with their BIOS workaround DO cause performance deficits"

I can inform you now that Anandtech were using BA and B1 according to a source at Anandtech and did not notice a difference between the two but they are still testing and will give a full report later.

On the subject of testing, you said why don't I shut up and wait for you to get testing these things in anger. Good idea. I waited and you both are producing very little so I thought I'd just mention

SHOW US THE BEEF

XS is all about results on the desktop, not excuses and what ifs and could have beens and just wait a bit longer and the platforms currently is not right. A fantasic processor would still cut through all of this like Woodcrest/Conroe did.

You have to walk the walk, not talk the talk and after 17 pages how much walking has actually been done in this thread? And this is a cpu that is being shipped for revenue, not something to be released in Q108

Regards

Andy

[zakelwe]

I think what happenned is that AMD backed themself into a corner.
They had moved the release date I think twice and knew they couldn't do it again BUT, they still had some issues with the chips so they kept it all quiet as long as possible( great job doing that) with the hope that they would solve the issues before release. It seems they didn't but JUST seems that way.
I think that given 60-90 days they will correct most of the issues and then is when we should make our judgements not today..
Just my 2 cents pal..

First part is a very good summation Dave, the "it will get better" part I don't agree with. They can make it better but they would need to pull off a Thoroughbred B trick again and I do not think they can find the magic again this time round.

I tell you what, if they do manage it I will dedicate my 2 machines to the DC project of your choice for a year and you know what I now think of DC after being addicted for years

If AMD are 10% better overall than Penryn on desktop benches on the last day of 2007 my machines are at your DC command

Regards

Andy

[dave_graham]

Dear Dave,
My point is that Intel Conroe was putting in great scores months before release even with new BIOS and motherboards. K10 doesn't do the same after release, what does that show?

i understand taking a few days to respond but seriously, this has been thrashed through enough by myself and others. read the pages AFTER your initial email.

You say I attack people, however I have only ever attacked the initial K10 results and said that "excuses" for it were not logical. If you want an example of somone attacking the person let me quote you on another forum:-

""i'm a liar at Xtremesys by a few uninformed imbeciles but, whatever....""

Nobody called you a liar, we were trying to work out the steppings by asking questions to try and get to the bottom of it. Nice to know what you actually think of us when you are not here though.....

that was from here: http://forums.2cpu.com/showpost.php?...1&postcount=48 (for reference)...always quote your source, zakelwe.

hey, you missed one here: http://forums.2cpu.com/showpost.php?...9&postcount=73

In that thread i say:

it's the ridiculous amounts of intel/AMD fan-s over at XS that are wearing me out. figure it this way, I'm probably my nicest at 10am....my most grouchy at 5pm.

on AMDZone, i said this: http://amdzone.com/index.php?name=PN...wtopic&t=11206

fighting ignorant trolls over at XS....it's tiring.

let's see...where else have I posted? gah...it escapes me...


actually, it's been implied, im'd, and others directly to me. i neither have the time, patience, or energy to go through and grab all the snarks that have been tossed my way. Have I lost my patience? you betcha. you can quote me anywhere you want, the message is still the same. iirc, that might have been from 2cpu where GENERALLY speaking, the level of intelligent conversation around this particular topic has been lightyears beyond here. With KTE's, PhilDoc's, et al. entrance into this thread, we actually have a bit of work to do.

see, at other places, there are less trolls simply entering into threads bashing a concept or a company. at XS, it's taken to the extreme. Not only do i have to defend myself, my statements, my ideals, i have to protect EVERYTHING i say since, as you've so delicately pointed out, i might infer something that I never actually said. happens too often here which is why i took about a 4 month hiatus before coming back. it's tiring and, when you actually have another job, it's not worth it.

And as for you claim about :-


"i have been upfront in claiming that B1 cores with their BIOS workaround DO cause performance deficits"

I can inform you now that Anandtech were using BA and B1 according to a source at Anandtech and did not notice a difference between the two but they are still testing and will give a full report later.

well, given that i've talked to Anand about it, they've disclosed that they used B1 and B2 steppings in their reviews, i don't see how your statement brings anything new to the table. *shrug*

On the subject of testing, you said why don't I shut up and wait for you to get testing these things in anger. Good idea. I waited and you both are producing very little so I thought I'd just mention

SHOW US THE BEEF

i'm testing at the right i'm able to. trying balancing a day job, a pregnant wife, a 2.5 year old child, and any number of other things that I do. matter of fact, don't because that would, in addition, complicate your ability to shoot arrows at the undefended down below. I buy all my own hardware, with the exception of processors and the OCCASIONAL memory relief, and have to fit it into the budget. I've already explained that I'm receiving BA steppings within a week or so, so, you can keep asking for it, but i'm going to keep saying, it's coming. then again, that gives you another platform to cast dispersion on myself and others for at least attempting to intelligently answer "critics," "trolls," and "fanboys" (on both accounts) with the platform performance. I can't help it if your expectations and timelines are unrealistic.

XS is all about results on the desktop, not excuses and what ifs and could have beens and just wait a bit longer and the platforms currently is not right. A fantasic processor would still cut through all of this like Woodcrest did.

and your point is? woodcrest and clovertown weren't without their share of problems though intel has a better track record of first run releases. who cares? the "results on the desktop" statement is...well, interesting. the issue is that XS exists in a vacuum; it in no way, shape, or form represents what revenuing partners, manufacturers, etc. care about when it comes to processor design. See, i guarantee that AMD didn't stop by XS and go, "wow, these XS guys are so cutting edge that we need to release a product that will appease them." that's what's so unbelievably unrealistic about your worldview.

You have to walk the walk, not talk the talk and after 17 pages how much walking has actually been done in this thread? And this is a cpu that is being shipped for revenue, not something to be released in Q108

Regards

Andy

and I am. simple as that. I've engaged the resources that I've had the time to all while balancing work and family. i'd like to see you do the same.

it's easy to cast stones...much harder to actually quarry them.

dave

[dave_graham]

Reluctant to post info from Fudzilla, but here it goes:
Does this sound right?

as i've stated: BA is the shipping rev. not B1. B2 in Q4.

cheers,

dave

[F@32]

as i've stated: BA is the shipping rev. not B1. B2 in Q4.

cheers,

dave

Thanks Dave.

[dave_graham]

Thanks Dave.

np. now, as to whether or not joe user is going to be able to get BA's....well, that's a different story.

dave

[Movieman]

My 2 cents, as a guy, not a mod:
I think people are just too emotionally involved in this.
Let's take the worst case scenario.
AMD announced before they were ready but had to provide something so they sent the best they had.
It's flawed. Ok, it is,thats life and the sun is still going to rise tomorrow.
I'm confident they will "fix" the issues and whether the final result is an Intel beater or not my guess is it will be a decent cpu.

Here's the part that I really don't like: Seeing people get into these heated arguments over this.
There's an old expression that if you don't have something nice to say then maybe you shouldn't say anything at all.
Now I know both Dave and Andy and like them both.
Good guys and both sharp but as a friend to you both I'd ask that both of you stop and take a breath.

As to Dave's comments on other forums, I'm sorry to see them but he's stating the truth. There are a lot of people here that are just that: Trolls.
Sitting back at their PC's getting their jollies from giving others grief.
Go read the news or speak freely section and daily you will see people start threads that just by their titles are designed to get peoples emotions boiling.
Trolls aren't just here, 2cpu has it's share also as I learned the hard way and I imagine that every forum has them.


Let's try and act like adults and if someone posts something that you have an issue with, state the facts, but stay away from the personal attacks.
They solve nothing my friends..nothing.
PS: If these reasons aren't enough, then I'll ask for a personal one.
I almost broke my right hand on this fools jaw a week or so ago and it still hurts like hell.
So be kind to an old guy and be nice to one another and save me some pain!

Oh,yes, before you ask..He went to la-la land..I dropped all 230lbs into that shot..

[dave_graham]

PS: If these reasons aren't enough, then I'll ask for a personal one.
I almost broke my right hand on this fools jaw a week or so ago and it still hurts like hell.
So be kind to an old guy and be nice to one another and save me some pain!

Oh,yes, before you ask..He went to la-la land..I dropped all 230lbs into that shot..

oh baby....

hmmm...wonder what an EMC LCC would do to him? hmmmm


dave

[Movieman]

oh baby....

hmmm...wonder what an EMC LCC would do to him? hmmmm


dave

Define EMC 'LLC"..All I know is that when I got a tour of their place down off of 495 I had drool all over myself..
A hardware junkys dream..

[zakelwe]

and I am. simple as that. I've engaged the resources that I've had the time to all while balancing work and family. i'd like to see you do the same.

it's easy to cast stones...much harder to actually quarry them.

dave

More talk Dave and no action.

So, you'd like to see me doing the same with a wife and family ?

Well check out the 3dmark 2001 scores for nvidia cards from GF3 ti200 onwards and see how many first pages have my name on them. I'm still pretty proud of my MX440 with FX-55, took them 2 years to take that score down. I've often stayed up till early in the morning in sub zero temperatures in my shed and then set off for work whilst my wife and kid were in bed so don't go giving me lectures about not doing the same :-

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&highlight=5am

I was up to 3am and had to get up at 5am to go to work

So no excuses, where are the results?

Andy

[dave_graham]

More talk Dave and no action.

So, you'd like to see me doing the same with a wife and family ?

Well check out the 3dmark 2001 scores for nvidia cards from GF3 ti200 onwards and see how many first pages have my name on them. I'm still pretty proud of my MX440 with FX-55, took them 2 years to take that score down. I've often stayed up till early in the morning in sub zero temperatures in my shed and then set off for work whilst my wife and kid were in bed so don't go giving me lectures about not doing the same :-

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&highlight=5am

I was up to 3am and had to get up at 5am to go to work

So no excuses, where are the results?

Andy

sorry man...I'm not capitulating to your requests. i'm proud of your work ethic but that has absolutely nothing to do with me or my work. As I get the time, I'll keep working on what other people have requested me to do. simple as that. My work isn't based on your perception, your timetable or your feelings about AMD or I.

I just find it funny that I'm being targeted for this. *shrug* I've answered every single person who's asked me a question, I've been more than honest in my opinions on the launch, etc.

cheers,

dave

[dave_graham]

Define EMC 'LLC"..All I know is that when I got a tour of their place down off of 495 I had drool all over myself..
A hardware junkys dream..

"Link Control Card" - about 8 inches deep, 6 inches wide, 1.5 inches high and made from aluminum. weighs ABOUT 3 lbs.

dave

[Movieman]

More talk Dave and no action.

So, you'd like to see me doing the same with a wife and family ?

Well check out the 3dmark 2001 scores for nvidia cards from GF3 ti200 onwards and see how many first pages have my name on them. I'm still pretty proud of my MX440 with FX-55, took them 2 years to take that score down. I've often stayed up till early in the morning in sub zero temperatures in my shed and then set off for work whilst my wife and kid were in bed so don't go giving me lectures about not doing the same :-

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&highlight=5am

I was up to 3am and had to get up at 5am to go to work

So no excuses, where are the results?

Andy

Patience my friend..Rome wasn't built in a day and it looks like AMD isn't ready for any final verdict..

[zakelwe]

sorry man...I'm not capitulating to your requests. i'm proud of your work ethic but that has absolutely nothing to do with me or my work. As I get the time, I'll keep working on what other people have requested me to do. simple as that. My work isn't based on your perception, your timetable or your feelings about AMD or I.

I just find it funny that I'm being targeted for this. *shrug* I've answered every single person who's asked me a question, I've been more than honest in my opinions on the launch, etc.

cheers,

dave

Not capitulating to my requests is an interesting way of responding to me just asking for some numbers. Numbers and not words is what XS is based on.

As for your time, you have spent a long time posting on this forum but cannot find the time to run a simple 30 second pifast bench?

Rather than reply to this post just run it and publish the results. Thanks.

Regards

Andy

[KTE]

zakelwe, chill out man. At least these guys are testing them, give them some credit bro, we all want to know. I couldn't give a phooking monkeys if an Intel or AMD acolyte becomes baptized at the new results, but its only fair that the guys work through and give us representative launch product results best they can- and actually its not even fair, they do all the hard work dammit. Why don't we help rather than cuss and at each other here. You don't know each other or each others personal lives, you just know bits and bats of what ones said about a freaking processor! Wayyy nothing of a reason to start getting emotional, personally serious or antagonistic.

And yeah, Dave was right about people calling him a liar. Words don't have to be said in literature do imply something, there's ways of sentencing which means clearly what you want to say but rather elusive of the exact bold words, and we all do it and learn it. Sarcasm is one. They did exactly that insinuate that here earlier on. Just look at how many times he's said the same things again AND again Zzzzzz in 3-4 threads here because people cant be jack assed to wolly up and read some facts already posted, but still ignorantly love to think conspiracy and spread negative conjectures as biblical fact. How many others do you have doing that with a new hardware that you all may want?

He doesn't have to post anything FYI and neither does anyone else.

Jeeeeez!!! Cut this, please. Its dead boring ya know.

[PhilDoc]

zakelwe, chill out man. At least these guys are testing them, give them some credit bro, we all want to know. I couldn't give a phooking monkeys if an Intel or AMD acolyte becomes baptized at the new results, but its only fair that the guys work through and give us representative launch product results best they can- and actually its not even fair, they do all the hard work dammit. Why don't we help rather than cuss and at each other here. You don't know each other or each others personal lives, you just know bits and bats of what ones said about a freaking processor! Wayyy nothing of a reason to start getting emotional, personally serious or antagonistic.

And yeah, Dave was right about people calling him a liar. Words don't have to be said in literature do imply something, there's ways of sentencing which means clearly what you want to say but rather elusive of the exact bold words, and we all do it and learn it. Sarcasm is one. They did exactly that insinuate that here earlier on. Just look at how many times he's said the same things again AND again Zzzzzz in 3-4 threads here because people cant be jack assed to wolly up and read some facts already posted, but still ignorantly love to think conspiracy and spread negative conjectures as biblical fact. How many others do you have doing that with a new hardware that you all may want?

He doesn't have to post anything FYI and neither does anyone else.

Jeeeeez!!! Cut this, please. Its dead boring ya know.

Amen, more that just insinuation if I recall.

Either way, I'm starting to remember why I quit this for 3yrs.

[akaBruno]

Not capitulating to my requests is an interesting way of responding to me just asking for some numbers. Numbers and not words is what XS is based on.

As for your time, you have spent a long time posting on this forum but cannot find the time to run a simple 30 second pifast bench?

Rather than reply to this post just run it and publish the results. Thanks.

Regards

Andy

??? After that... I wouldn't run it at all or post it if I did.

[dogsx2]

Wow zakelwe, your not coming across as a good guy in this thread even though you are. Do as MM says and take a deep breath and maybe reread some of your posts to see how they sound.

I'm really glad I sold my ASUS L1N64-SLI WS as it's just too tough in the AMD section anymore.

[dave_graham]

Wow zakelwe, your not coming across as a good guy in this thread even though you are. Do as MM says and take a deep breath and maybe reread some of your posts to see how they sound.

I'm really glad I sold my ASUS L1N64-SLI WS as it's just too tough in the AMD section anymore.

and it isn't hard in the Intel section? c'mon...this is the whole Democrats-Republican back and forth banter that happens all the time.

relax.

dave