Check this homemade WB out

[nateman_doo]

Nateman, could you please comment on differences and similarities between your design and the one from the article:

http://www.overclockers.com/watercoo...safe-solution/

Of course, I'm referring to the idea only.

Interesting. The article is 9 years old. Really the biggest difference is he clamped on the fan vs, mine is integrated into the waterblock.

Another forum member asked if my design could accommodate various other air coolers. If I did that, it would be similar to this. But all and all very similar.

Wow, I remember my ViperV770 card. Playing quake all day. Those were the days.

[nateman_doo]

Excellent idea. However, tests are not needed to know I am correct about this.

You want ME to stop posting?? I got dragged into this thread, beat up, kicked & stomped on.

Unless you have a magic crystal ball and you already know the outcome of vapors test, sit back and relax. One of us will be proved wrong soon.

If it is me who is proved wrong then thats fine. I will take my lumps and go back to the drawing board.

[nateman_doo]

Thermaltake made a hybrid water/air block years ago too. It was pants and a different concept in that 1/4" water tubes were weaved through fins in a tower arrangement after exiting the block.

Believe it was the CL 4005 volcano? Will try a google .

EDIT - That was easy, Here she is! What a beauty

I like it. Its like cutting off the ends of heatpipes and pumping water through it. I thought of trying that idea once too. Seems like such a small amount of water is actually going through it though (thin). Its not really sitting in the block all that long to absorb the heat?

[nateman_doo]

I'm going to side with Nik on this one. Requiring physical tests does not validate your argument. Most of what is done in science is theoretical and is still correct.
We are talking about basic principles of thermodynamics.
The only way this could improve temperatures so massively is a failure to exchange and/or eliminate heat from the loop.
Options?
Bad thermal change over, that means bad thermal paste; always possible.
Or. The system was just undersized to eliminate the heat applied to the loop.
In that case, the fins and fan are increasing the max exchange; and adding a bigger radiator or higher air movement would result in the same drop.

So if the tests came back positive, my block is still a failure? I don't understand what you mean by tests not validating it.

I used the same thermal paste for both blocks, so if it was bad thermal paste (can that stuff even go bad?) then both blocks suffered equally and it put my block on top (in the tests)

I am curious if my block fails the tests with considerably more rads in the line, but excels when there are less rad's in the line, is the block still a failure?

We can all agree that if your water pump fails, or you run out of fluid your toast. I can say personally without even hearing Vapors results that my block will run a CPU with no water at all. I know this because I was using it for weeks on air alone.

No matter what the tests say, this block has promise. If it runs well on air alone, how would it be a failure with water pumping through it?

[shazza]

Just a reminder that everyone stay calm here - more data is coming, and let's see where that goes.

(and, just so you understand - nikhsub1's posts aren't being deleted, because he has more knowledge about water cooling - and the early days of the hobby - than most of us. He's stated his opinion without making any personal attacks).

I will predict that the test results coming from Vapor won't resolve this for everyone. It may well show that there is no significant improvement in performance when running the block in the "standard CPU waterblock" test configuration - with plenty of radiator and a low delta. Nateman_doo and the supporters of the block will stand by the advantages of a hybrid setup. Let's just keep the debate constructive.

[nateman_doo]

I think most folks have calmed down. You are probably right in regards to the tests not resolving everything for everyone. Some people doubt the design and thats fine.

I am going with the fact that I ran the block for weeks on air alone doing everyday computing and folding, gaming, and at the same time for hours on end without any incident. So I see no reason why water pumping through the block would do any worst.

[Tex707]

I think most folks have calmed down. You are probably right in regards to the tests not resolving everything for everyone. Some people doubt the design and thats fine.

I am going with the fact that I ran the block for weeks on air alone doing everyday computing and folding, gaming, and at the same time for hours on end without any incident. So I see no reason why water pumping through the block would do any worst.

There is no chance for the water to make the cooler perform worse than on air.

Have you noticed one interesting thing from the article I have posted a link to, the heatsink performs better while running in a piggyback fashion with a waterblock with no water in it then without the block at all?

[nateman_doo]

Couldn't tell you why. I am afraid to say anything, but I did some comparative air cooler tests and My block did pretty good. If I go into specifics something tells me it would stir up the hornets nest again.

[nikhsub1]

I think maybe I need to explain what I mean a bit more... nateman - I am not attacking you or your design - I am simply saying that adding a FAN to a well designed water block will do NOTHING to lower the temperature of the CPU die. Sure it well help cool mosfets and capacitors etc, but so will any fan. Now, I know nothing about the internals of your block - If your block is a terrible water block to begin with but a decent air cooler, then sure, adding a fan will likely make a difference as you would be benefiting more from the air more than the water. However - make a custom copper top for the leading water block and add a fan and fins to it and it will make ZERO difference in cooling capacity.

To summarize, if your block performs better with the fan than without, the only thing it proves is that it isn't very good as a water block in the first place.

I hope I was able to clarify what I'm arguing here and please do know I have nothing against you - I applaud those that think outside the box and think of different things - your idea just isn't one of them IMO.

Last bit - I won't comment on the testing results of nateman's block vs. any other block - my argument is not that his is better or worse than another block.

[TJ TRICHEESE]

@nikhsub1: from the impression i have got i think that the top of the block is connected directly to the base meaning that the air cooler directly cools the cpu as well as the water

[shazza]

@nikhsub1: from the impression i have got i think that the top of the block is connected directly to the base meaning that the air cooler directly cools the cpu as well as the water

Check out this post.

[johnksss]

yeah, that's just it.
the fan is not to help the block cool faster. it was put there to have dual options. are we seriously not understanding this concept???????????????
you guys are seriously stuck on the fan doing something other than what it was put there for (when in air block mode)
quit trying to push the conversation on the fan, unless your talking about air cooling.

you also have the opportunity to run the fan while water is being pumped through. this is the 3rd option and not the first.

not to mention damn near everyone in here is running extra fans on their boards for something..this one just may happen to help the board as well..cant see that being a negative at all. wether it helps the block or not..was not the first thought going into this project.
shazza:
did he run any test with no water in the radiators and the fans going?
this would be equivalent to what nate was trying to achieve. jjust curious....

[nateman_doo]

lol. No, I didn't run the HK block tests without water, I would have fried my CPU.
I would however run mine in that test, and it would do just fine

[johnksss]

talking about your block, buddy....lol

instant fry if you would have done that with any other block...lol

[NaeKuh]

Oh, it looks like you've tried it before! Gooodie!

Please do tell.

Look familiar on the cpu block?



Why do you guys always fight with the VETS on this forum?
Seriously... time and time again, the VETs have always proved they will PWN the living hell out of you in the end.

When a VET challanges you, you only fight him with the help of another VET.
(You even brought in NOL who is a sub zero expert... Nikhsub1, whose advice id trust as my own, and martin...)
You made them come out of hiding almost just to reply to your POST.

Your in trouble Nate... Nol used to be a legend until a mishap, scott is a close to a legend.. and martin defined accurate testing.

If more then 1 VET is after you... your straight up SCREWED on this forum.
Nate... all the VETS on this forum is after you... i am keeping quiet because i feel bad for you having 1 more after you.

Anyhow im going back to sit on my throne in hell, remember im practicing god hood 101...
Because it seems like every one including there granny on this forum is becoming a GOD and totally ignoring physics.
SO i want to join you guys

[Tex707]

<snip>

Look familiar on the cpu block?

<snip>

I'm not sure about the reason for posting a photo of this block, it's a completely different concept in comparison to the one this thread is about.

[NaeKuh]

I'm not sure about the reason for posting a photo of this block, it's a completely different concept in comparison to the one this thread is about.

The area has been explored.

Its been explored since Procooling days.

Infact Eric was asking me the other day which forum it was shown on.

You can probably still find it in this thread somewhere:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=9263

Meh... as i said in the first post on this thread... he's fighting a difference in mediums.
That is whats killer on the block.

Im calling shins to this.

Reason is the medium used to transfer.

And martin even says it again that its a difference of mediums.

Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way because of the huge difference between water and air thermally. First there is the 30X or so difference in thermal conductivity or ability to remove heat. Then there is the volumetric heat capacity differences which is on opposite ends of the spectrum.

That is why the VIP's in this thread are all saying it wont work.
We can clearly see you have a problem with difference in mediums.
Without the requirement of having to test.

[Tex707]

<snip>

The area has been explored.

Its been explored since Procooling days.

<snip>

Yes, it has, even before Procooling days (I've posted a link to an article from 2001 and there are probably older ones), but the waterblock you've mentioned has no fins on it at all.

I really can't remember whether there was a discussion about HSF-W/B combo on Procooling, the most interesting stuff there IMHO were Cathar's impingement W/Bs.

.

[Vapor]

There was HSF + WB discussion on Procooling, not much came from the thread I found though.

Principally, waterblocks need to emphasize the internals. That's where we've made gains for years and that's not going to stop. But we are coming to a limit to how much the material can be manipulated in the fashions we've been doing (not to say a new way to cool won't come out that trumps microchannels/pins).

So looking for gains elsewhere shouldn't be discouraged. skinneelabs is a for-the-community effort, so we're open to testing community creations if we have the time, and in this case I do have the time and all things considered (like calming this thread down), I figured that testing this block would be a good idea.

Aside from just raw performance, what I plan to test on nateman's block is: how much 'radiator power' there is; whether it can hold my test CPU at load with the pump off (I doubt a TRUE can, so I wouldn't be surprised if this failed); if it can hold my cpu at idle with the pump off (surely other blocks cannot).

Without knowing the internals, I have no idea what to expect from this block, frankly.

Looks like HK3.0LT tests will finish late tomorrow, nateman's block goes on immediately after

Oh, and I have a theory for nateman's high HK temps. If his E757's near-socket caps are positioned similarly to my E758's, then he could have severe contact issues without 'forcing' it (i.e., shifting the block as far as possible to the side and still pressing against the caps). E758's caps are closer to the socket than the GB boards that were deemed 'incompatible' with the HKs.

[shazza]

Good points, Vapor.

Also, I've added this edit to the first post in this thread:

Before you add a comment to the thread, please read the quoted source in the first post. The point of nateman_doo's waterblock - and a point he emphasizes in the quoted post at EVGA is to make a hybrid block that can work on air and on water. Yes, he does say that his block beats the Heatkiller by 9 degrees - BUT a very important distinction is that he's saying it beats it in HIS setup. He's not saying it will beat the Heatkiller by 9 degrees in all setups. A point of emphasis on this block is the fact that it can reportedly act as a satisfactory heatsink for either air or water cooling. That's what further testing will shed some light on.

Just want to make sure everyone is clear on that before they post their comments.

[nateman_doo]

Why do you guys always fight with the VETS on this forum?
Seriously... time and time again, the VETs have always proved they will PWN the living hell out of you in the end.

When a VET challanges you, you only fight him with the help of another VET.
(You even brought in NOL who is a sub zero expert... Nikhsub1, whose advice id trust as my own, and martin...)
You made them come out of hiding almost just to reply to your POST.

Your in trouble Nate... Nol used to be a legend until a mishap, scott is a close to a legend.. and martin defined accurate testing.

If more then 1 VET is after you... your straight up SCREWED on this forum.
Nate... all the VETS on this forum is after you... i am keeping quiet because i feel bad for you having 1 more after you.

Anyhow im going back to sit on my throne in hell, remember im practicing god hood 101...
Because it seems like every one including there granny on this forum is becoming a GOD and totally ignoring physics.
SO i want to join you guys

How am I screwed on this forum, I didn't even post it on here. I don't really know anyone here. I primary post in EVGA. Why are VETS after me? Vets tend to stick up for each other because we know what each has been through. And what does being a veteran have to do with ANYTHING??

And what do you mean "after me?" Can you please clarify? What on earth are you talking about? try to keep up. We are just waiting for the results now. Sit down in your throne and please be patient. I am the only one with something to loose from these tests.

[nateman_doo]

Good points, Vapor.

Also, I've added this edit to the first post in this thread:

Before you add a comment to the thread, please read the quoted source in the first post. The point of nateman_doo's waterblock - and a point he emphasizes in the quoted post at EVGA is to make a hybrid block that can work on air and on water. Yes, he does say that his block beats the Heatkiller by 9 degrees - BUT a very important distinction is that he's saying it beats it in HIS setup. He's not saying it will beat the Heatkiller by 9 degrees in all setups. A point of emphasis on this block is the fact that it can reportedly act as a satisfactory heatsink for either air or water cooling. That's what further testing will shed some light on.

Just want to make sure everyone is clear on that before they post their comments.

God I hope they listen. You have been a voice of reason throughout this ordeal.

I don't wanna attract any more "vets" to assassinate me.

[johnksss]

There was HSF + WB discussion on Procooling, not much came from the thread I found though.

Principally, waterblocks need to emphasize the internals. That's where we've made gains for years and that's not going to stop. But we are coming to a limit to how much the material can be manipulated in the fashions we've been doing (not to say a new way to cool won't come out that trumps microchannels/pins).

So looking for gains elsewhere shouldn't be discouraged. skinneelabs is a for-the-community effort, so we're open to testing community creations if we have the time, and in this case I do have the time and all things considered (like calming this thread down), I figured that testing this block would be a good idea.

Aside from just raw performance, what I plan to test on nateman's block is: how much 'radiator power' there is; whether it can hold my test CPU at load with the pump off (I doubt a TRUE can, so I wouldn't be surprised if this failed); if it can hold my cpu at idle with the pump off (surely other blocks cannot).

Without knowing the internals, I have no idea what to expect from this block, frankly.

Looks like HK3.0LT tests will finish late tomorrow, nateman's block goes on immediately after

Oh, and I have a theory for nateman's high HK temps. If his E757's near-socket caps are positioned similarly to my E758's, then he could have severe contact issues without 'forcing' it (i.e., shifting the block as far as possible to the side and still pressing against the caps). E758's caps are closer to the socket than the GB boards that were deemed 'incompatible' with the HKs.

makes very good sense!

Good points, Vapor.

Also, I've added this edit to the first post in this thread:

Before you add a comment to the thread, please read the quoted source in the first post. The point of nateman_doo's waterblock - and a point he emphasizes in the quoted post at EVGA is to make a hybrid block that can work on air and on water. Yes, he does say that his block beats the Heatkiller by 9 degrees - BUT a very important distinction is that he's saying it beats it in HIS setup. He's not saying it will beat the Heatkiller by 9 degrees in all setups. A point of emphasis on this block is the fact that it can reportedly act as a satisfactory heatsink for either air or water cooling. That's what further testing will shed some light on.

Just want to make sure everyone is clear on that before they post their comments.

thank you for this!

How am I screwed on this forum, I didn't even post it on here. I don't really know anyone here. I primary post in EVGA. Why are VETS after me? Vets tend to stick up for each other because we know what each has been through. And what does being a veteran have to do with ANYTHING??

And what do you mean "after me?" Can you please clarify? What on earth are you talking about? try to keep up. We are just waiting for the results now. Sit down in your throne and please be patient. I am the only one with something to loose from these tests.

and i concur with ya!
derailing in progress...
*FACEPALM*

[shazza]

Don't worry, nateman - no one's out to assasinate you. Perhaps a poor choice of words on Naekuh's part - you have to realize these guys fight like cats and dogs with their best friends here on the forum, so please don't take it personally.

The other thing that occurs to me - this is a dedicated "Liquid Cooling" section, so naturally those of us who post here are primarily interested in Liquid Cooling solutions. Yours is clearly a combo or "hybrid" system, so people need to realize that. If it had been linked in the Air-Cooled section, they'd be screaming how the TRUE (or whatever) is all you need .

[nateman_doo]

Shazza, as always cool heads prevail.

Here:


A cute image. Hopefully this will calm folks down. Now can't we all get along?