Check this homemade WB out

**WhiteFireDragon** · 06-29-2010, 11:29 PM

Nateman, from a thermaldynamic way of looking at it, i'm a little skeptical of your results. but to me, i could care less if this actually worked or not. what's important here is that you're very innovative and this opened up many doors to more designs. for the last few years, all the CPU cooling products (air cooler or water block) has pretty much already hit the design limitation, and the only improvements are from optimization for only a fraction of a degree improvement. i applaud you for coming up with this

. if you can, i would try to protect your ideas before some shady company steals it, mass produce a more optimized form of it, and cash in on this.

now if you really do care about the results as much as the design, then send the block to Cam (skinnee) or Vapor so they can test, although it looks like this is already in motion (thanks Vapor!).

Originally Posted by Martinm210

FWIW, I tried making a couple of custom waterblock with larger than your average cooling fin area.

*SNIP*

Going to be tough to make any sort of comparison here...

ah the watercooling legend speaks! great to see you still check up on these forums once in a while martin

**nateman_doo** · 06-30-2010, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Martinm210

FWIW, This is not all that different than testing one waterblock with a 220 rad, and another with a 320 sized radiator just that one is integrated into the block.

Going to be tough to make any sort of comparison here...

That isn't a bad analogy at all. Testing 2 blocks, 1 has a triple rad, and the other has a double. Unfair advantage to the triple rad right? The simplicity is its strongest point. It will always have a built in advantage to remove more heat. Its not hard to compare at all. One waterblock vs another. each block has the same number of radiators in the loop. Just like when skinnee tests blocks, he doesn't give advantages to other blocks because one is better in one area then others. The "built in radiator" is the advantage. I think some people are focusing on the "block" portion instead of the entire cooling system which is the block and fan.

If the block has a "built in radiator" why not use the fan? Who doesn't use a fan on their radiator? When people have been asking to test it without the fan (which Vapor will do because everyone is dying to know), its like testing a V8 on only 4 cylinders just to be equal to the rest. This block was fundamentally designed to be used with a fan and to have that inherent advantage other water blocks which do not have fans.

When the 6 core chips came out, why didn't people disable the extra 2 cores to equal all the rest of the quad cores? Then you would be just like all the other people with quad cores. The people bought 6 cores because they wanted more.

Lets assume a user likes a whisper quiet system, you can disable the fan. Now for sake of argument lets say the block with no fan does pretty close to the HK system, either a little better or a little worst. Now that same person gets the urge to start benchmarking. All that user has to do is enable the fan to full blast, and you have just increased your ability to remove heat.

**nyeah** · 06-30-2010, 05:14 AM

nice concept nate, it's refreshing to see new ideas.

be careful, someone might stole the idea if the test were true

**randomhro** · 06-30-2010, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by nateman_doo

If the block has a "built in radiator" why not use the fan? Who doesn't use a fan on their radiator? When people have been asking to test it without the fan (which Vapor will do because everyone is dying to know), its like testing a V8 on only 4 cylinders just to be equal to the rest. This block was fundamentally designed to be used with a fan and to have that inherent advantage other water blocks which do not have fans.

When the 6 core chips came out, why didn't people disable the extra 2 cores to equal all the rest of the quad cores? Then you would be just like all the other people with quad cores. The people bought 6 cores because they wanted more.

I may be wrong here but I don't see anyone asking you to remove the fins and fan to hinder your block. From what I saw people just want to know how the base of your block performs against the HK, more specifically how much the fins and fan help your design when the system isn't rad limited

I'm curious about the same thing, how much your results may be affected by the actual fins/fan on top of your block vs how much heat the water is actually removing. Since I've never seen another water block with a fan on it I'll be interested to see the results that come out of this.

**Martinm210** · 06-30-2010, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by nateman_doo

That isn't a bad analogy at all. Testing 2 blocks, 1 has a triple rad, and the other has a double. Unfair advantage to the triple rad right? The simplicity is its strongest point. It will always have a built in advantage to remove more heat. Its not hard to compare at all. One waterblock vs another. each block has the same number of radiators in the loop. Just like when skinnee tests blocks, he doesn't give advantages to other blocks because one is better in one area then others. The "built in radiator" is the advantage. I think some people are focusing on the "block" portion instead of the entire cooling system which is the block and fan.

If the block has a "built in radiator" why not use the fan? Who doesn't use a fan on their radiator? When people have been asking to test it without the fan (which Vapor will do because everyone is dying to know), its like testing a V8 on only 4 cylinders just to be equal to the rest. This block was fundamentally designed to be used with a fan and to have that inherent advantage other water blocks which do not have fans.

When the 6 core chips came out, why didn't people disable the extra 2 cores to equal all the rest of the quad cores? Then you would be just like all the other people with quad cores. The people bought 6 cores because they wanted more.

Lets assume a user likes a whisper quiet system, you can disable the fan. Now for sake of argument lets say the block with no fan does pretty close to the HK system, either a little better or a little worst. Now that same person gets the urge to start benchmarking. All that user has to do is enable the fan to full blast, and you have just increased your ability to remove heat.

I agree, its just one of those hybrid items that doing more than your typical block including noise. The argument that will surface is for folks that think the noise difference is apples to oranges. We are simply used to comparing blocks using the same heat exchange level AND noise level. I don't really know what's right or wrong...just something new that hasn't been compared before. You might test as you have done and/or you might try comparing at an equal noise level too?

**nateman_doo** · 06-30-2010, 06:27 AM

Off to the lab.

I wish I had more time. I already have ideas on how to improve and would have liked to send an improved model out, so just think of this as the base model. It only gets better.

Click image for larger version.

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This is the actual block that I tested. Same everything.

**PiLsY** · 06-30-2010, 01:00 PM

I reckon you saw the 10c difference due to a couple of factors -

First the lapped base on the HK - the top counteracts the bow in the base when you clamp the block down allowing for a flat fit, by lapping it you make the block slightly convex when mounted at full pressure and reduce contact.

Second you were using a heatloaded system, so were infact reducing the water delta through additional cooling. In a system with a low water>air delta you will get nowhere near the advantage this design gives.

The first bit I believe is totally unintentional, the second part is by intention. This isn't to say I think you skewed your results - you wanted to show what sort of improvement a user could get from your block in the istuation in which it would perform best. Thats just designing to your needs and is totally admirable.

However I really hope people don't slate you when the test results come back from skinneelabs as the test setup there will most definitely not show your block in a favorable light. The test setup they have is designed to show the pure cooling power of a block, and therefore runs with as low a deltaT as possible, in this situation your aircooled fins will give minimal benefit and the more complex and restrictive internals of the likes of the HK, EK and Swiftech blocks will really shine.

Its horses for courses.

I would like to see you repeat your test exactly as it is now but with a different waterblock. Even something like a supreme LT would be fine. Just straight out the box and onto the cpu. That HK is just performing horrifically for stock clocks. Think its a goner man!

For as many people here who's posts have been deleted there are others who think you've done pretty well if you consider what sort of setup this block would actually suit. The only problem I see is that itd be quite expensive due to the pure mass of copper involved. If the heatsink doesnt directly touch the water could you use an aluminium sink to reduce weight and cost? Doubt it would affect temps very much - any reduction of heat absorbtion of the ally would be mostly offset by the greater radiation of heat it gives. Hopefully thats cheered you up a bit, and maybe people will read and take note of the situations in which this type of design would boost performance and when it would not.

Again, well done on the block, major boo-boo on the HK though (which is what's lead to all this flaming). Stock temps should be nowhere near 70c, even Thermaltake can manage that!

Hows about someone sends him an unused or old block to test against with his current setup? I really do believe that in an H50 type setup (radiator limited) this block could offer significant gains without having to resort to plumbing in extra rads or case modding to fit more rads. In even a mediocre XS setup though we have enough rad to cool several PCs over. Anything over a 2x120 or silent fans on a 3 x 120 I think you'll start to see performance go backwards.

Bit of a pain but I suppose it could get a quick test done at the labs say with a simple 2 x 120 setup against an HK? That would eliminate all doubt and hopefully silence any flames that may arise from a review using the test setup you guys have at skinneelabs...

**vinister** · 06-30-2010, 01:33 PM

Why don't you just plunk the same fan on top of the HK... I bet the results would be the same. Of course, if you blow cold air at your block you will reduce the temps... Its not the blocks, its the AIR!

**clo007** · 06-30-2010, 05:51 PM

I think that is the point of Nates design...adding air to the WB.

All in all, great concept. The new results will tell the tell but I think it is awesome for someone to be designing something like this in there own basement...let's not forget someone did the exact same think *cough* kingpin*cough* and look at his pots now. What's to say Nate does not revolutionize his design concept and make a better and better air/wb combo?

Nate, seriously, go get a patent for this quickly just to be safe!

**nikhsub1** · 06-30-2010, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by clo007

Nate, seriously, go get a patent for this quickly just to be safe!

LOL. No one has a patent first and foremost because adding fans and external fins to a WB does NOTHING.

**nateman_doo** · 06-30-2010, 06:27 PM

Thanks gents. The jury will be deliberating for the next (Insert Vapors timeline here). He will probably do every test for every scenario possible, and said if time permits he could even test it in pure air mode. It seems that shipping the block quieted down the thread to the point it almost went to page 2. This thread never left the top of the forum Monday & Tuesday. It has drawn such a crowd. Many people will be waiting to hear vapors results, but no one more then I.

Thank you clo007. Every great block maker, overclocker, and such all start somewhere. Comparing my humble origins to the likes of kinpins truly a compliment. I appreciate that.

**nateman_doo** · 06-30-2010, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by nikhsub1

LOL. No one has a patent first and foremost because adding fans and external fins to a WB does NOTHING.

Maybe... maybe not...
The jury is still out.

**nikhsub1** · 06-30-2010, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by nateman_doo

Maybe... maybe not...
The jury is still out.

No, it isn't.

**UrbanSmooth** · 06-30-2010, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by nikhsub1

No, it isn't.

Oh, it looks like you've tried it before! Gooodie!

Please do tell.

**nateman_doo** · 06-30-2010, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by nikhsub1

No, it isn't.

**n00b 0f l337** · 06-30-2010, 07:29 PM

Oh, it looks like you've tried it before! Gooodie!

Please do tell.

I'm going to side with Nik on this one. Requiring physical tests does not validate your argument. Most of what is done in science is theoretical and is still correct.
We are talking about basic principles of thermodynamics.
The only way this could improve temperatures so massively is a failure to exchange and/or eliminate heat from the loop.
Options?
Bad thermal change over, that means bad thermal paste; always possible.
Or. The system was just undersized to eliminate the heat applied to the loop.
In that case, the fins and fan are increasing the max exchange; and adding a bigger radiator or higher air movement would result in the same drop.

**johnksss** · 06-30-2010, 07:39 PM

nate, will you quit posting here till the test are done?
this nonesense seems never ending.

**nikhsub1** · 06-30-2010, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by johnksss

nate, will you quit posting here till the test are done?
this nonesense seems never ending.

Excellent idea. However, tests are not needed to know I am correct about this.

**johnksss** · 06-30-2010, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by nikhsub1

Excellent idea. However, tests are not needed to know I am correct about this.

really? correct about what?
did no one ask for anyones approval. so im not sure what your going on about.

**Tex707** · 06-30-2010, 10:38 PM

Nateman, could you please comment on differences and similarities between your design and the one from the article:

http://www.overclockers.com/watercoo...safe-solution/

Of course, I'm referring to the idea only.

**johnksss** · 06-30-2010, 10:53 PM

can that guy and the other guy be located? now that would be a direct comparison..no need to down size for other blocks to play catchup. adding extra radiators and turning off fans and what not.

+1 on that find.

**PiLsY** · 06-30-2010, 11:42 PM

Thermaltake made a hybrid water/air block years ago too. It was pants and a different concept in that 1/4" water tubes were weaved through fins in a tower arrangement after exiting the block.

Believe it was the CL 4005 volcano? Will try a google

.

EDIT - That was easy, Here she is! What a beauty

**johnksss** · 06-30-2010, 11:54 PM

now the competition blocks are filing in!
that block looks cool!

no fan?
ahh, clicked link and i see the fan.

**Johnny87au** · 07-01-2010, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by PiLsY

Thermaltake made a hybrid water/air block years ago too. It was pants and a different concept in that 1/4" water tubes were weaved through fins in a tower arrangement after exiting the block.

Believe it was the CL 4005 volcano? Will try a google

.

EDIT - That was easy, Here she is! What a beauty

2 bad that runs crap!