Check this homemade WB out

[Vapor]

Contact wasn't great. Looking at low-90s/high-80s for initial temps at 22c water temps on the remount. I'll let this run awhile.

EDIT: for the record, the fan is really loud at 100%. Anybody running 120-140mm fans at comparable noise levels on a 2+ fan radiator will see extremely low water-to-air deltas already.

[shazza]

@ TRICHEESE - not trying to pick a fight with you, just commenting that it won't matter if the" top of the block is connected directly to the base" because air is not nearly as efficient at cooling the CPU as is water. The point about properties not changing was in your reference to Martin210's testing. Apologies if it came across as snide - that wasn't the intention.

Please continue the discussion by PM if you want - let's keep the focus here on nateman_doo's block and the testing in progress.

[NaeKuh]

you are still not telling me anything i don't know.

the water temp will increase as the system runs for longer until it becomes stable. with decent case airflow this block could have worked with minor adjustments as the air temp will be lower than the water temp

EDIT: Seriously do you think that someone would think that their properties would change?

Ok... here is the problem that we see.
1. For you to get that kind of delta you would need a great fan on that cpu block, because of the difference in mediums.

As vapor said, the noise coming from that 1 fan is better adjusted @ the rad.

If you dont understand difference of mediums after being said 4 times, then i give up.. actually i already give up, i am just now going to defend martin, vapor, and shazza.

What are you thinking in terms of fabrication costs for materials, tooling, and machining? Is you intent to sell or are you just having fun?

That seems like a fairly hefty mass of copper that'll be pretty expensive on fabrication. I recall making some more standard sized blocks...I think I managed to mill out about 2 to 3 different bases.
Martin

Lemme remind these guys exactly who you are... and what i did to make you retire from milling:

Four!...ok I'm not worthy... Only two for me, one is 4 and the other 16 months. That's enough work as it is.....


Well....fabrication on the blocks is finally complete. I probably have 100 hours into these, so needless to say these will be two of a kind..

Here are some assembly pics:

















I put all 5 TEC's in just for testing sake, they were a 91watt variety, and I found that one TEC running at 12volts draws at most 63watts and starts dropping off as the two blocks heat up. So, hooking up three of them to the meanwell under water should draw right around 190 watts or so.

Anyhow, it's probably not worth testing in a loop until the meanwell gets here, I have a couple of smaller fabrication projects to hop over to and get done.

You guys have no idea who martin is do you?
I did a lot of sponsoring for him b4 the vendors started sponsoring.
He has done a lot of tests, and he's also spent a lot of his own out of pocket money..

This is why a lot of people respect martin.

Contact wasn't great. Looking at low-90s/high-80s for initial temps at 22c water temps on the remount. I'll let this run awhile.

EDIT: for the record, the fan is really loud at 100%. Anybody running 120-140mm fans at comparable noise levels on a 2+ fan radiator will see extremely low water-to-air deltas already.

Thanks for the test... and yeah we were talking about how the noise is better placed @ the radiator.

[Martinm210]

Hehe..yeah the block making business will wear you out in a hurry if you want anything more than an experiment.. Your blocks were pretty cool, but I still kind of like my old thin line block..never was as good as a fuzion but I thought it looked cool:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...rtin+thin+line

IMHO its pretty impressive for any homeade block to perform similar to an apogee gt...blocks have come a long ways from the old days and manufacturers have been doing a lot of testing and r & d along the way. The measurement of success should come from just having a custom one off block that is truely hand crafted and works.

I may try to make my own again someday...I kind of miss that old thin line block.

[TJ TRICHEESE]

@ TRICHEESE - not trying to pick a fight with you, just commenting that it won't matter if the" top of the block is connected directly to the base" because air is not nearly as efficient at cooling the CPU as is water. The point about properties not changing was in your reference to Martin210's testing. Apologies if it came across as snide - that wasn't the intention.

Please continue the discussion by PM if you want - let's keep the focus here on nateman_doo's block and the testing in progress.

Ok thanks

EDIT: @naekuh: As with when i was conversing with shazza i said that i understood the difference in mediums.

So now your accusing me of attacking shazza which i was not. And on top of that your also accusing me of attacking martin who only supplied the data (i have only admired his work when i have seen it before, so i do know who he is) and i have not even talked to him in this thread. Where the hell you got the idea that i was attacking Vapor from i don't have a clue, i have only supported the block going to Vapor and i trust his work with blocks and base what i buy based on what information i get from him and skinnee

[Manicdan]

You guys have no idea who martin is do you?
I did a lot of sponsoring for him b4 the vendors started sponsoring.
He has done a lot of tests, and he's also spent a lot of his own out of pocket money..

i think Martin is just compensating for something

[shazza]

okay, gang. Let's agree - no one's attacking anyone here. I think the issue is people are just getting frustrated and it's sometimes hard to understand questions/comments in the written format.

So, let's calm down and wait for Vapor and nateman_doo to comment on this latest testing round.

[nateman_doo]

I am just sitting here waiting to hear. Just like everyone else. He said his first mount was a bad one, so now just still waiting.

[Vapor]

15min left on this mount, I'll have more accurate numbers to post after I get the data uploaded.

First mount was really bad due to mediocre contact....this mount is faring better, but still not looking so good

[Vapor]

First mount: 97.11c after being normalized for 30C water temps, contact was good but not amazing.

Compared to:


Mount 2 is underway.

[Vapor]

As for 'radiator power' it's extremely complicated with the initial data.

At normal temperatures (75-80C), the CPU dumps 217-220W into the loop via the block. I know this from using block in water temps, block out water temps, the flowrate, and the specific heat of water.

As temperatures increase, CPUs consume more power. Some 20C above my normal running temperatures, the power consumption is going to be higher. Add to that a big change in the balance of primary cooling vs. secondary cooling and the figures I have from other blocks are basically incomparable to assess the radiator power. The 'fix' to that is to run this block fanless (as I originally planned to do), but considering the high temps, I don't plan to run more than 2 runs on this block--I just don't want to risk the longevity of this testbed. The second mount of this block with the fan at full speed is my final run with this block.

That all said, the heat-absorbed by this block is 225W on the first run. Which means that the extra heat absorbed from running at higher temperatures outweighs the heat dissipated by the radiator on the block (though only by a few watts). This either means the power consumption/absorption is way up or the radiator power of the block at a ~5C air to water delta is minimal, or something between the two.

[Vapor]

Mount 2 came in at 95.4c with great contact.

Overall, puts it about 20C behind the best blocks right now on my testbed.

[Manicdan]

are there any photos of the internals?

[Vapor]

It's soldered/brazed together.

[nikhsub1]

Mount 2 came in at 95.4c with great contact.

Overall, puts it about 20C behind the best blocks right now on my testbed.

[UrbanSmooth]

That's alright, Nateman. Back to the drawing board, bro.

[nateman_doo]

and thats with the fan on 100%?

You have the same radiators, in all the tests, with the block and fan at 100%?

[Manicdan]

It's soldered/brazed together.

whats the pressure drop? would be a good way to know if the design is restrictive enough to give the surface area a speed up of water flow

[Vapor]

and thats with the fan on 100%?

You have the same radiators, in all the tests, with the block and fan at 100%?

Yeah, your fan at 100%, everything else completely identical between tests.

There wasn't any noticeable 'radiator effect' either, as I detailed a few posts earlier (but there may have been a radiator effect, just negated by the increase in heatdump from the hotter CPU).

whats the pressure drop? would be a good way to know if the design is restrictive enough to give the surface area a speed up of water flow

I don't have a manometer, but flowrate was 1.62GPM, roughly the same as the Heatkiller 3.0LT/Cu.

[nateman_doo]

How many radiators are being used, and what is the ambient temps in the room?

[skinnee]

How many radiators are being used, and what is the ambient temps in the room?

He's adjusting for 30C water temps... ambient and the amount of radiators doesn't matter. And, he's also already posted that there is no noticeable radiator effect from the block.

[nateman_doo]

how do you "adjust" for temps? why not hook up radiators, pump water through them, and read what the software says?

[shazza]

Here are my simple thoughts on the subject:

1) The original tests were done using one dual radiator with weak fans. In this configuration, I assume the fan on the new waterblock helped improve cooling, since the radiator/fan combo was not sufficient to remove the heat. (Still not sure how much the design of the waterblock helped - e.g. copper/fins).

2) Vapor's test was done at the other extreme - two triple radiators with higher speed fans in push/pull and lots of pumping power (I'm assuming Vapor was using the test setup outlined here, or perhaps an updated version. He can confirm. As has been mentioned before, this setup was designed to take the radiators and fans out of the picture and get a true representation of how the CPU blocks compare.

3) This is why I didn't think the testing would resolve all of the debate - one could still make the point that the "hybrid" block has the advantage of being able to work effectively as an air cooler, should something go wrong with the water loop. Nateman_doo has said he ran his system without water using this block, so I assume it works. As to how it compares to high end air-cooling HSF, I don't think we have seen that data yet - as I don't think that was the point of the block's design.

4) There seems to be confusion around the point of whether or not the "copper-with-fins" design for the waterblock will in fact improve the cooling efficiency of the block, compared to the current CPU waterblocks. What I took from the comments by Martin and others regarding the thermal properties of water and air is that water is much more efficient at heat transfer, thus the affect of the "external" copper/fins/fan will be insignificant compared to the heat transfer that takes place inside a top end water block - thus the focus on internal design (as opposed to trying to get any heat transfer from the external part of the block). This scenario would apply to a loop that has a decent radiator/fan configuration.

5) It's still good to see someone taking the time to learn to make their own waterblocks, and I'm sure nateman_doo will keep coming up with new things to try - and I hope we can encourage him to do so.

[rehpyc]

nateman did his test w/ his i7 920 running at 2.79. Many people with i7's who venture into water cooling run their systems at 4+.

[nateman_doo]

Again, shazza; wise beyond your years. (forgive me ahead of time, I am enjoying a few adult beverages-its the 4th)

You are correct that I have been using this block for weeks with no water, and I never hear the fan kicking on for daily computer usage which for me is gaming, and cpu folding. Not hearing the fan kick on means the smartfan never sees the CPU above 59°C.

This was the first prototype and I had a few design changes to implement, but I am runnig out of time. I am going away for some training and sending this block to vapor was a hasty decision on my part to quell the masses. I have plans for new internals already but I figure there is no where to go but up at this point.

I just can't see how 4lbs of copper with close to 50 fins could perform so poorly, when it works with air alone and no water?