Case Design for Liquid Cooling

[Mick64]

Just to let you know, my dream of getting this case built isn't dead yet. Things are happening in the background so there is still hope, but still nothing definite.

I know some of you wont like what I'm about to suggest, but I'm thinking of increasing the size of this beast a little more. I've been asked if it's possible to add two more pci slots so that it will except the EVGA XL-ATX motherboard. This will mean increasing the height a little more. At first I was against the idea as the case is already humongous, but there now seems to a lot of interest with the EVGA 270-GT-W555 dual socket motherboard that's due for release. At present, there doesn't seem to be a suitable case for this motherboard, but if I give my case 10 pci slots it could take this motherboard easily, as well as the XL-ATX.

I would like to know what you guy's think before I start altering my plans. It's not as easy as you might think to add another two slots. If feedback is favourable, I might have a go at creating a render with the dual socket monster installed......

[Andrea deluxe]

your style is more tj07 addicted....

but now is time to change man!

you have the power to make your style.....

[Mabyboi]

Lets see it with the dual socket!

[Brodholm]

Mick, check your Inbox. Haven't heard from you in a while.

Giving it 2 extra pci slots will also give space for a extra hdd slot in the front rack. The motherboard section gain about 40mm in height. I will be closing in on 650mm.

[ryan92084]

i dunno, adding height to accomodate 140 rads made more sense to me then adding it for a specific motherboard. But hey it's your case and i'm still interested either way.

[Hunter 101]

myself, for the card I do not "have to have" quad sli slots, I will use the dual cpu mobo from evga with triple sli. But, I know a lot of guys would want that capability in the case they buy for their motherboard.

There is also the slight problem with enough cooling, myself I believe that I need dual quad rads on top and on the bottom plus two PSUs to fit and run that motherboard on a stable and hi 24/7 OC.

In my case, I have dual triple rads and a dual rad today, and this for a machine that will output about half the heat that this monster motherboard with the expected heat of the triple fermi onboard will do in combination of a fair bit of OC for daily usage. My conclusion is on that note, only more of the rads will be able to cool everything down fast enough. So if you are building a custom run limited series case why not do it right so we can fit it all inside the case. I am looking to fit 4 quad rads, two PSU, two water reservoirs and 12 HDS.

I certainly don’t want the brick case. And I been looking at all round the net and there is no product available for a case that will fit it all, other than a huge ugly brick, unless I hand build one myself or buy one of custom builders available to build a one off custom build case.

Doing at least 50 but best a 200-300 run trial production seems like the best idea. I don't know what the costs variable are associated with this as you go up in numbers in the production run.

Remember the classified limited e759 card from EVGA got ripped of the shelves, I believe this will be the case with this new dual CPU motherboard limited run product as well. Its a nice alight but I strongly believe there is a nice market.

If you are not doing that extension to your case, can you please tell me in a private message, or on a post how much you would like to have for a one off build, so I can send flattened drawings to a cutter in a complete set of design?

Alternatively do you need help funding a trial run build of this case, I can help with that if you want. I have the funding you maybe need. There is lack of public feedback from you on exactly what you need so I am asking what you need to get moving.

I am 98% certain there is a special nice market for this case and willing to take the risks in any way if you want to.

[leo_bsb]

did you add top fans to exhaust the hot air from the two quads on the top chamber? That you could use both with fresh intake air from outside, exhausting the hot air from the top, without raising the whole case temperature. If you do that on the bottom too you could install 2 quads and 2 triple rads and achieve top performance from the 4 rads without much effort.

[Mick64]

did you add top fans to exhaust the hot air from the two quads on the top chamber? That you could use both with fresh intake air from outside, exhausting the hot air from the top, without raising the whole case temperature. If you do that on the bottom too you could install 2 quads and 2 triple rads and achieve top performance from the 4 rads without much effort.

I designed this case so that you could fit a quad 120mm rad in the top in a push-pull configuration with shrouds, which IMO is the most efficient method of rad cooling. Of course, there is room for other configurations such as installing two rads, one either side and vent from the top as you suggest, or a rad sandwich, but I don't think there would be that much of a gain, if any, using these methods, but that is only my opinion. I'm sure there are examples where these configurations do perform extremely well....

[Hunter 101]

did you add top fans to exhaust the hot air from the two quads on the top chamber? That you could use both with fresh intake air from outside, exhausting the hot air from the top, without raising the whole case temperature. If you do that on the bottom too you could install 2 quads and 2 triple rads and achieve top performance from the 4 rads without much effort.

Good point, In other words, more ventilation holes in top and bottom of the case. It’s an excellent idea to get more heat dumped out of the case as fast as possible I think.
I was thinking about that idea last night to mod the case further built for myself, why not include it in the initial editions of case design?

On another note, I would also add ventilation holes beside the PCI holders. Airflow is good for you, even when everything that heats up is on water.

There may be more guys that have the same somewhat extreme heat removal needs.

[Hunter 101]

I designed this case so that you could fit a quad 120mm rad in the top in a push-pull configuration with shrouds, which IMO is the most efficient method of rad cooling. Of course, there is room for other configurations such as installing two rads, one either side and vent from the top as you suggest, or a rad sandwich, but I don't think there would be that much of a gain, if any, using these methods, but that is only my opinion. I'm sure there are examples where these configurations do perform extremely well....

we need two quads in top... and myself I am looking at needing another 2 quads below. for that I need a deeper case, I have to have, or I need two psu of say at least 1.2 kw.. to run that EVGA dual cpu mobo as well as triple set of fermi cards on stable and hi OC. I run my I975 stable at 4.5 Ghz and I am looking at doing the same if I can find two good cpus for this mobo of the right type. Given that, we are looking at what I believe is close to or round 2500 W heat.. 900 to 1000 w for the two cpus and maybe 320 to 400 per fermi card. I don't think I am far of, what do you say guys?

edit1, fixed the quote

edit2, I am using a sandwitch triple rad from Swiftech of the QP type, sandwithing them on the same input gives about 33% more cooling versus a single triple rad If I remember right.


doing what is said above with holes on top and above on a single loop daisy chained should give much more cooling than this as net result, at least in my book, unless someone have data on what you say above is the best net result.

[Alexandr0s]

Mick, kinda off-topic question:

How did you get the tubing to look so good (any preset surface you suggest using?)
And what Kerkythea render settings do you normally use?

[Mick64]

we need two quads in top... and myself I am looking at needing another 2 quads below. for that I need a deeper case, I have to have, or I need two psu of say at least 1.2 kw.. to run that EVGA dual cpu mobo as well as triple set of fermi cards on stable and hi OC. I run my I975 stable at 4.5 Ghz and I am looking at doing the same if I can find two good cpus for this mobo of the right type. Given that, we are looking at what I believe is close to or round 2500 W heat.. 900 to 1000 w for the two cpus and maybe 320 to 400 per fermi card. I don't think I am far of, what do you say guys?

edit1, fixed the quote

edit2, I am using a sandwitch triple rad from Swiftech of the QP type, sandwithing them on the same input gives about 33% more cooling versus a single triple rad If I remember right.


doing what is said above with holes on top and above on a single loop daisy chained should give much more cooling than this as net result, at least in my book, unless someone have data on what you say above is the best net result.

As I said, there are probably many examples of this type, but there are many other factors that need to be taken into consideration before making this type of statement. Fans, type/make of rad, tube size, flow, pump, etc. will all have an effect on the performance of your rad configuration.

If you are determined to have a particular configuration, I'm sure you could modify the case to suit your needs, there is plenty of room after all.....

[Hunter 101]

Mick, I am not certain the case does have the room needed with fitting things without making it larger in some fashion. I am not talking of the quad SLI slots here.
Let me be more precise on what components I have in mind.

2 of this
http://www.ekwaterblocks.com/shop/re...rvoir-400.html
IF there is no room for that unit, use 2 of this
http://www.ekwaterblocks.com/shop/re...rvoir-250.html
2 of this
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/heatkiller1366.html
2 of this
http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcin12pu.html

1/2 barb, and tygon tubing

Radiator choices and setups, a topic of its own

I am certain the case will have room to fit two of thick rads in a pull fashion with cooling venting out to the holes in top part of the case.
Thou, it looks like the case lacks space for a quad rad in length and at the same time house a PSU.

Optional, what I am not so certain of is if it will fit this
MCR320-QP + MCR320-QP-STACK, no stack needed for the cpu loop, blowing out top and bottom of each cooling compartment.
That would leave the case at :
4* MCR320-QP + 2* MCR320-QP-STACK


The extra STACK rad is giving about 1/3 more cooling. Its what I use now in my existing build. It’s equal to or more than a quad fan in length and thick rad would give in cooling, but, by eye sight looking at pictures only, does it fit 4 fans plus PSU in your current design?
http://www.petrastechshop.com/swmcqposestr.html
> size info on link there

If that stack solution wont work, what could be best thou would be one of these and a slimmer rad from swiftech in combination with one of these in each compartment:
http://www.petrastechshop.com/xsrxtr12ra.html
A thick quad fan rad will disperse more heat at lower noise
Compared to the lower part as pictured of the case as its designed now , by looking at it with vent holes it fits at least this while giving enough room to let the air exhaust

Finding a slimmer fan might also be a option to be able to fit the STACKER for spinning fans nice and slow.

When it comes to your single rad picture versus my options that I am thinking of here, if anyone have data saying a single rad with dual push/pull fans each side, versus with lots of fans as pictured as you suggest and pictured above Mick.
Such a solution, it would be nice but, given my requirement for as low noise as possible, I just don't fully comprehend that it will be remain a quiet solution giving net more cooling performance. Please feel free to prove me wrong if you have a link. I leave my computers on 24/7 in my work room in my house. For me low noise is highly valued as priority one to finding solutions in this build. While thinking of the fact that I will let it disperse round 1500 W heat round the clock.
This is also why I put in way more rads than needed. I try to input as many and thick as possible rads with quiet fans, and just tune the fan speed down until its stable when crunching at max with no heat build up.

And for noise reduction reasons mostly I use these fans on my rads.
Noctua NF-P12 120x25 12,6dBA - 19,8dBA
To further reduce case noise outside case, I will want to fit them on the inside of the case itself in a pull fashion.

Other bits and pieces that need to fit:
2x 1 kw PSU thermaltake Toughpower


11 3.5 HD’s
1 DVDR
Triple SLI fermi
Areca raid card
EVGA dual-socket 270-GT-W555

edit based on total watt output on next post

[jcool]

Hunter, your wattage calculations are way off
You can calculate with 200W per CPU at 4,5Ghz (these Hexas don't use more power than Bloomfields, actually it's less at identical clocks/volts even with early A0 sample CPUs)
Maybe 300W for OCed Fermi cards (conservatively), 100W for the mobo with its Dual NF200's and another 100W or so for HDDs, pumps, fans etc.
In all, you should be fine with a single, good 1500W PSU.

Cooling-wise I'd say dual loop, quad rad for the GPUs and quad rad for the CPUs/mobo is more than enough.

@Mick64: Incredibly awesome cases, I want one
But please, include that "XL-ATX" support for the DP classified - no cases out for that board really

[Hunter 101]

jcool, ure completely right, I been sitting here looking at some old speculation max OC watage numbers of mine. One minute with google confirms your numbers are more or less dead on all over the place

I still under the impression and believe I need a second PSU to drive the total HD I run and other gear and keep things rather quiet on the PSU fan noise. I like running my PSU at 50% for reasons of noise alone.

This is sweet news for the build size thou, and leaves me with only needing a quad or single loop with two times triple fan rads as you say, keeping whats there in case size other than the PCI slots will be good enough.

That basically also means the cooling will fit into the case with no further increase.

I will edit my post above to reflect my setup changes

[jcool]

jcool, ure completely right, I been sitting here looking at some old speculation max OC watage numbers of mine. One minute with google confirms your numbers are more or less dead on all over the place

Yeah, I did the exact same calculations a while back because I am gonna be building a very similar system

As for PSUs, you are right about fan noise, assuming you run full blast on CPUs and GPUs for longer periods of time, your best bet are two 1000 to 1200W high efficiency PSUs (go 80+ Gold if you can, I believe there is a new Antec Signature in that class with Gold certification).

However, I always swap PSU fans for noise concerns anyways, so for me, a good, single PSU with a quiet fan will do the trick (not planning to run 3 cards anyway. not until WCG starts supporting GPUs, that is )

[sterizos]

Mick,I absolutely agree to increase the size of the case so it can fit the new 7pci e motherboard of EVGA.Go ahead!!!!I will definitely buy one when it ll go in production.

[Vinas]

No offense, but this case does have potential. Could you include some of the cutouts that corsair uses? Also this case will have a heavy lean to the right... Could you perhaps mount the bottom rad on the left side to counter balance its self? Once you make the changes I described then I would be interested in this case. Finally having the rad fans pull from the outside is a great idea to keep positive pressure in the case. Good job there. Again I wonder about having the bottom rad on the left panel somehow...

[Mick64]

There is a chance that my design is going to get built, so I would like a little more input from the community on whether I should increase the size to accomodate the new larger motherboards.

It would be nice to know how many of you are thinking about getting the EVGA 4x SLI classified XL-ATX motherboard, and also those interested in getting the new dual socket motherboard.

Of course, it would also be nice to know if you buy my case to put them in.

[Salamndar]

Ya a 9 or 10 slots space is awesome go with it

And please inform us on the availability, I might buy one and ship it overseas

May I suggest adding screw hols on the motherboard tray and the shield above the 3 fan rad. for use with the D5, DCC3 and some other res.

Peace.

[clone38]

I have the EVGA 4 WAY other than MM i cant find a case that fits my needs until this thread looking forward to some updates.

[gmat]

Mick, i think you'll find an easy market in those who have the SLI 4-way already, since their case choice is rather limited at the moment.
Also the HDD rack should be easily removabe.

[Vinas]

Mick are you taking selective input only? I had posted some feedback for your case above ^^ but if you're not interested then I won't be bothered I guess. After further inspection it looks like your case will allow a rad mount on either side, is this true? If so that would negate the counterbalance need as users could place the rads wherever they like based on their own tests. Also, although minor, the plastic/rubber cutouts on the corsair obsidian are a really great addition IMHO. It also seems like an easy thing to add, while allowing more complex wire management situations.

Looking forward to your reply!

[Brodholm]

No offense, but this case does have potential. Could you include some of the cutouts that corsair uses? Also this case will have a heavy lean to the right... Could you perhaps mount the bottom rad on the left side to counter balance its self? Once you make the changes I described then I would be interested in this case. Finally having the rad fans pull from the outside is a great idea to keep positive pressure in the case. Good job there. Again I wonder about having the bottom rad on the left panel somehow...

I guess the "Cutouts" you mean the rubber thingy in the motherboard plate? If so, they will probably be just holes in the backplate. I guess if bigger companies like Lian Li would produce this chassis they would be able to do this. But right now, I think that there is bigger issues. No offense, but this might be something to consider later on in the project. First we need a prototype. The things like that are the finishing touches.

I don't think that the chassis will have a heavy lean to the right. And you can always flip the way you have the shroud or the holder for the rads.

Mick, i think you'll find an easy market in those who have the SLI 4-way already, since their case choice is rather limited at the moment.
Also the HDD rack should be easily removabe.

Yeah, the only concern is that the bigger the case is, the market gets even more limited. The hdd rack will probably be fasten with screws. So this should not be a problem.

Mick are you taking selective input only? I had posted some feedback for your case above ^^ but if you're not interested then I won't be bothered I guess. After further inspection it looks like your case will allow a rad mount on either side, is this true? If so that would negate the counterbalance need as users could place the rads wherever they like based on their own tests. Also, although minor, the plastic/rubber cutouts on the corsair obsidian are a really great addition IMHO. It also seems like an easy thing to add, while allowing more complex wire management situations.

Looking forward to your reply!

I don't think that he is taking selective input. In fact I'm sure he doesn't. I know he has a limited time though. And you will be able to mod the chassis fairly easy. And I know that you can mount the rads on both sides. The holder is fasten in the middle so you just swap sides.

[Church]

My thoughts on making this case ideal -
1) update a bit length for this case to be able to accomodate largest rads these days - 4x140mm hw labs black ice gtx/sr1 560 ones (153/605/54mm) .. to not make case overly long, maybe fit it that way so that it's end with fittings for attaching tubes is outside case's back wall with tubes going inside through standard holes for liq.cooling like in other cases. For those users that wish using smaller rads, cut out hole in wall might be covered with simple plate bolted on. Afterall, if one pays for 'best of' case, why not make it possible to use 'best of' other components like rads? Especially when there are almost no cases arround in market that would allow inernal mount of these big monsters without customisation/cutting, so less the competition
1a) front panel power/reset switches and ports like esata/usb/firewire might be located on some plank for 5.25 bay that could be moved/mounted wherever one wants, to save extra case length on top for mentioned rad.
2) change PSU mount so that it will suck air from outside case from it's bottom
- afterall, air near floor is colder then from compartment of motherboard, so PSU's temps will be lower and it's vent will rotate slower/quieter.
3) add _ergonomically_&_easily_ removable for cleaning dust filters for all holes where air is sucked in case - for psu, for pushvents for rads on top and bottom, for vent blowing in case from front and alike
4) imho it would be best for better airflow to cover all ventholes with less restricting guardwires (i don't know right term, english is not my native language. i mean like round ones on eg. some PSUs vents and such), instead of some pattern small holes. = less restricted and more silent airflow.
5) i like for case to not be filled with stuff i don't use .. i'm pointing to enclosures for mounting 5.25/3.5 devices. Eg. lot of people will use only 1 dvdrom and 1 or two SSDs. Then why one need enclosures for almost all height of case?
- I propose making it modular. Eg. 1 enclosure for 1x5.25, 2 enc for 3x5.25, 1 enc for 4x2.5, 2 enc for 5x3.5 disks. With bolting on needed ones user can customise case to whatever needs he might have, from eg. using 1dvd + 2 5x3.5" hotswap enclosures fitting per 3 5.25 slots, to 1dvd and 10 internal 3.5, to .. well, to 1 dvd && enclosure for 2.5 SSDs only. He just needs to bolt on choosed enclosures (for simplicity - to one of side walls). For cheapening config/production needed enclosures could be selected in online configurator when ordering or ordered separately.
P.S.
Same thing about modular/and choosing when ordering or buying separately might be aplied to other areas aswell. - eg. to order case walls with precut windows for different sized rads, be it 2-3-4x120-140 or whatever, and just bolt on needed/right one - and voala, no custom fitting/cutting case needed at all. Also radiator mounts could be ordered exactly ones user might need for his rad size. And just like with enclosures .. changing rads, or changing pc role to eg. that of file server - just order needed replacement parts and exchange/bolt on right ones. For furthier cheapening of used materials and shipment cost(package size) of replacement parts side wall could be divided in 3 parts for main motherboard compartment (where user might want one with/without window), to part per each rad department where venthole count/size might differ. Top of case might be customisable/interchangeable aswell, in case if user wants mount rad to top, not vertically. As for front .. best would be load of 5.25 planks with integrated air filter. With optional one for 3.5 device. This way those closing planks could be used for different configurations of enclosures/extra mounted blowing in fans and such.
P.P.S.
I almost wanted to add point about holes for cable managment, but someone already brought that up here. In my eyes etalon for cable managment is Obsidian 800D. Holes for different format/sized motherboards, placed in lot of possible places for wierd motherboards were cable attachment places migrate all over it not unlike most common implementations and neatily covered with cut rubber taps. It simply looks best from all others out there.
P.P.S.
oh, and minor detail - imho it would be more stylish if corners of case would be angular (yet again like obsidian ), not rounded as for temjin TJ07. as free bonus - one can better use full case length in case where big rad is bolted on directly to top or to side, no need to move it back or put at distance from wall to fit with rounded corners.