Apogee GTZ

[skinnee]

Ok People, sorry for disappearing for a week, but it's been quite busy around here.

1/ I owe the XS members an apology for jumping the guns a bit concerning product release. We expect to start shipping to the dealers next week.

2/ The information presented by cooling masters coming from unpublished data on our site is unauthorized, unnoficial, and incorrect! It WILL change at the time of release. For example, I can tell you now that pressure drop curves in particular are completely wrong. I am asking members of XS and readers to disregard any information that is not officially published on the Swiftech site.

Thanks for ending the speculation Gabe! Glad to see you're back as well.

[71 (Bryan)]

Ok People, sorry for disappearing for a week, but it's been quite busy around here.

1/ I owe the XS members an apology for jumping the guns a bit concerning product release. We expect to start shipping to the dealers next week.

2/ The information presented by cooling masters coming from unpublished data on our site is unauthorized, unnoficial, and incorrect! It WILL change at the time of release. For example, I can tell you now that pressure drop curves in particular are completely wrong. I am asking members of XS and readers to disregard any information that is not officially published on the Swiftech site.

no prob bob

[skinnee]

As far as independent testing goes, if you provided the tester with a sample, whether or notthey could keep it, then the test is biased.

The tester either feels an obligation to post beneficial results or you choose the results that benefit your product. An independent test will be when people buy the block themselves and test it, no bias that way. I'm buying one of your blocks, whenever it's released, and will have a third partytest it against the EK Supreme and FuZion v2. Out of my own pocket, then I'll know the true results for myself.

RRR, here is a point we disagree on. As someone who is just starting out in the independent testing/review arena I cannot speak on experience of testing WC gear, but I can draw from my ethics and work experience.

Being an independent tester, you work for the community not a vendor or manufacturer. You have to test that particular product in the same manner you have tested all others of the same type in order to draw a comparison and build the historical data. As an independent tester it is a requirement that you be fair and equal to all products and tests, regardless of how the specific product arrived on your test bench. All of the gear I will be using for testing is funded by me (and my wife) presently. Now if my tests and data that I present to the community means companies would like to send me a sample for testing, thats great...but the data cannot be fudged, that is the only way you will earn the respect of the community. And if the numbers are tweaked for the specific company, others in the community will bust you on it and there goes your credibility and trust you spent all that time and money building.

BTW, can you fit BP 1/2" x 3/4" compressions on the GTZ?

And this is a perfect example of something an independent tester/reviewer would be able to tell you!

[gabe]

1c or 2c either way, who gives a anymore.
andyc

huh, how about we do ?

I don't think you really meant it that way

There is passion in what we do; that passion derives from our competitive spirit. The minute we stop competing and pushing ourselves to the limit, we just .. decay ?

[sirheck]

huh, how about we do ?

I don't think you really meant it that way

There is passion in what we do; that passion derives from our competitive spirit. The minute we stop competing and pushing ourselves to the limit, we just .. decay ?

I have the all in one pump/cpu block plus a D-tek v2 and mc350 pump.
Have ran both of them on the same Q66 plus 88gtx.

I dont see much difference in tempuratures.

I like them both.

[sirheck]

Yeah,

In regards to tester miss representing data or testing. Why would anyone miss represent 1 or 2 c. Not worth it in the long run, or short for that matter.

andyc

I always figure around 1c or 2 to 3f to be the tolerance.
Most everything has a certain tolerance.

So yeah i dont really worry about an extra 1c or 100mhz.

[Martinm210]

Martin PM me your email address plz, you apparently are not accepting PM's...

You have PM..

I think we could definitely do that.

Thanks Gabe!

Everytime I do a new set of testing, I'm always trying to learn from the previous round. I think this next round I'm going to follow nicksub1's 5 mount method again, but I'm also going to add in testing with two levels of pumping power to see if there is any worthwhile gains with than, and also see if there is any ranking reversals with the different pumping powers.

Obviously we're not going to have access to the high quality equipement that you do, but it might give us an idea where we can improve our own methods.

[nikhsub1]

You have PM..




Thanks Gabe!

Everytime I do a new set of testing, I'm always trying to learn from the previous round. I think this next round I'm going to follow nicksub1's 5 mount method again, but I'm also going to add in testing with two levels of pumping power to see if there is any worthwhile gains with than, and also see if there is any ranking reversals with the different pumping powers.

Obviously we're not going to have access to the high quality equipement that you do, but it might give us an idea where we can improve our own methods.

Martin, unless you can keep the coolant at a CONSTANT temperature, testing with more/less pumps skews things. I tried this, with the RD-30 at 18v and then at 24v. All I got was higher readings at 24v due to the additional heat dump... you know that pumps dump less heat the more loaded down they are (more restriction). So naturally, without a chiller to keep the coolant at a constant more restrictive blocks will have an unfair advantage right off the bat. The only way to fly is with a chiller and a way to vary flowrate. Swiftech has such a setup.

And RRR for you to say that testers are biased if the MFGR gives the tester a block is just asinine. With that said, there is not one test or tester out there that you approve of. Sometimes you should learn to keep your mouth shut.

[IanY]

Sometimes you should learn to keep your mouth shut.

Woah... Regardless of whom you are addressing, and regardless of your social standing, status or whatever, in reality, perceived or otherwise, relax on the down talking! Nobody has the journalistic license to be rude, and there are many reasons not to be degrading, not least of which are the playground rules!

Can we please have a joint devoid of egos and elitism?

[Whokidmo]

And RRR for you to say that testers are biased if the MFGR gives the tester a block is just asinine. With that said, there is not one test or tester out there that you approve of. Sometimes you should learn to keep your mouth shut.

i wasn't going to get into this but if you want to get into argumentative clauses i can... u say RRR cant prove his point... well the same goes for yours... no testimony can prove to me that the person isn't lying... dont be offended by his opinion... theres people out there in the world that think like that... dont tell them to keep there mouth shut... learn how to prove your point or reach a middle ground or learn to agree to disagree... but if u ever tell someone to do that i'll put down each one of ur points peice by peice... and u thought the people that made Donnie27 and Shintai look like idiots were ... just wait...

[nikhsub1]

Woah... Regardless of whom you are addressing, and regardless of your social standing, status or whatever, in reality, perceived or otherwise, relax on the down talking! Nobody has the journalistic license to be rude, and there are many reasons not to be degrading, not least of which are the playground rules!

Can we please have a joint devoid of egos and elitism?

No down talking whatsoever. I am just stating a fact.

[Martinm210]

Martin, unless you can keep the coolant at a CONSTANT temperature, testing with more/less pumps skews things. I tried this, with the RD-30 at 18v and then at 24v. All I got was higher readings at 24v due to the additional heat dump... you know that pumps dump less heat the more loaded down they are (more restriction). So naturally, without a chiller to keep the coolant at a constant more restrictive blocks will have an unfair advantage right off the bat.

Yeah, maybe what I should do is just more of a simple water delta vs flow rate. I've got two running inline right now and tinkering with a different setup. Alot of it depends on the heat dump of the pump, but I've always been curious about reports of gains with stronger pumps so I want to try it and see even if as expected I get nothing in the end.

This is what I've got going now, the rad is on the rad bench so I can closely monitor air in, air out, and I've got two probes measuring the water leaving the radiator and entering the CPU block, so that should be a good number. In addition I have my flow rate meter plumbed in for the test and to make life a little easier some globe valves near the CPU block for a little less painful block switching.





Let's just say duall DDCs with tops on an extremely free flowing parts is a little overkill at 3.5GPM even with some extra restriction from the flow meter and valves...lol!


Oh, and only the highest quality Wal-mart "Great Value" distilled water at the task this time around.

[migueld]

It's a freaking hobby for goodness sake. 1c or 2c either way, who gives a anymore
andyc

Agreed. However, manufacturers will care about it; if they can claim that their block is 0.5C better than somebody else's then they'll use that to market their products. It's up to the user to evaluate the worthiness of such specs. Personally I don't care if there is a 3C difference in a wb. I care much less about 1-2C, especially for the fact that simple ambient temps can fluctuate that kind of range easily.

[Whokidmo]

No down talking whatsoever. I am just stating a fact.

no down talking?

Sometimes you should learn to keep your mouth shut.

telling someone they should learn to keep their mouth shut? thats not down talking? thats not elitism? why should he shut up? cause u dont like it? sue him... should i look up the definition of a forum? just to show u and it can be argued i'll agree:

Thesis:
Reviewers may in some way shape or form, be biased towards a company.


premise 1: they may place false trust beliving the product is superior because the manuacturer is place trust behind it, false trust argument

premise 2: in order to keep the manufacturer happy and to do more reviews, the reviewer could be inclined to be biased for future growth and selfish interests

premise 3: the review could be inclined to give the product a good review or publish skewed results because can or want to. This is why some people dont trust some sites. Some sites benefit, many times monetary reward, from supporting a certain product.

So please before you tell someone to shut their mouth... open urs and lets hear what you have to say big shot...

[Waterlogged]

no down talking?



telling someone they should learn to keep their mouth shut? thats not down talking? thats not elitism? why should he shut up? cause u dont like it? sue him... should i look up the definition of a forum? just to show u and it can be argued i'll agree:

Thesis:
Reviewers may in some way shape or form, be biased towards a company.


premise 1: they may place false trust beliving the product is superior because the manuacturer is place trust behind it, false trust argument

premise 2: in order to keep the manufacturer happy and to do more reviews, the reviewer could be inclined to be biased for future growth and selfish interests

premise 3: the review could be inclined to give the product a good review or publish skewed results because can or want to. This is why some people dont trust some sites. Some sites benefit, many times monetary reward, from supporting a certain product.

So please before you tell someone to shut their mouth... open urs and lets hear what you have to say big shot...

This post will no doubt draw some unwanted attention but....oh well.

Like wise, it should be left to the mods/admis to put someone back in their place, not some lowly lurker.

[Everett]

Glad to hear another great product has came from swiftech.

[C'DaleRider]

I've been in marketing and sales for 12 years, no company I've worked for had less than $50 mill in annual sales. All were and still are closely held private companies. That statement was not meant to flame, only point out the obivous, to the non-marketing types on this forum. You clearly stated and the begining of this thread that you were coming here like your competitors, to announce a "new" design of yours. That, my friend Is called marketing major props on the hype you created

WOW, a whole $55M in yearly sales? Impressive......well, our lone plant does that in less than 4 months, but not trying to upstage you. The company I've worked for the last 12 years has yearly sales in the $6B range.....and I think your boasting about a pitiful bunch of small companies and their pitiful amount of sales is just showing your infantile attitude once again. I'd think there are any numbers of members here who have or do work for companies that dwarf anywhere/anyone you've ever hoped to work for, yet they don't boast about it. Grow up.

[voigts]

I personally don't doubt that there are reviewers with a particular bias towards some companies. Take for example some of the ridiculous reviews on other sites you read about how wonderful Thermaltake kits are and how great Koolance products are. Wasn't there a review linked to here recently on youtube where the guy was wearing a Dtek shirt but was supposed to be giving an "unbiased" review?

I think honestly however that the kind of people that do reviews here on XS aren't taking hours upon hours of their time and personal money on equipment to stroke one manufacturer or another. If a reputable manufacturer like Swiftech were to send samples of products to independent testers, it would be in their best interest to know that the tester will tell and publish the truth, regardless of what they find. A company doesn't build a business in this small niche market based on one product or review. They build a business by the quality and types of products they put out over time. Its not like there is such a great watercooling following that companies can afford to mess with the consumers by purposely skewing reviews and it not come back to bite them.

A company like Swiftech isn't some giant like Walmart with a huge market. They cater to a relatively small consumer pool, as do the other watercooling manufacturers.

[kinghong1970]

um.. to those who like to throw big numbers...

Woooooaaaaa....
so grats... um... what, you still clock in 9-5 and pick up your paycheck, right? so that is what the company does... aaaaand?

please... let the product hit the markets, let those who do the testing do their testing...
don't start this again... it shows no respect for XS...

[Bojamijams]

This thread should be locked IMO. Before it gets worse.

[hotdun]

um.. to those who like to throw big numbers...Woooooaaaaa....

haha agreed....it's pretty damn arrogant but whatever gets you off I guess...

I'm new to all of this stuff but I haven't made one purchase from Swiftech that I regret. I also don't remember seeing any reviews from Swiftech or any other reputable company for that matter that were marked as "shady."

[RubberDuck]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6...esting2jx6.jpg

Sorry to go off topic Martinm210 what tubing are you using in that picture

back OT that block looks promising can't wait to see some results.

[IanY]

WOW, a whole $55M in yearly sales? Impressive......well, our lone plant does that in less than 4 months, but not trying to upstage you. The company I've worked for the last 12 years has yearly sales in the $6B range.....and I think your boasting about a pitiful bunch of small companies and their pitiful amount of sales is just showing your infantile attitude once again. I'd think there are any numbers of members here who have or do work for companies that dwarf anywhere/anyone you've ever hoped to work for, yet they don't boast about it. Grow up.

Wow.. go easy there. I work for a company with $161 B in revenues, but so what? I'm about to lose my job lol

I know you don't like the guy, but please don't attack him. Lay off the insults. Its not kosher around here.

[eXa]

Martin, unless you can keep the coolant at a CONSTANT temperature, testing with more/less pumps skews things. I tried this, with the RD-30 at 18v and then at 24v. All I got was higher readings at 24v due to the additional heat dump... you know that pumps dump less heat the more loaded down they are (more restriction). So naturally, without a chiller to keep the coolant at a constant more restrictive blocks will have an unfair advantage right off the bat. The only way to fly is with a chiller and a way to vary flowrate. Swiftech has such a setup.

And RRR for you to say that testers are biased if the MFGR gives the tester a block is just asinine. With that said, there is not one test or tester out there that you approve of. Sometimes you should learn to keep your mouth shut.

Hmm interresting. A small conclusion form that is that its no point in going from 18v to 24v on the RD-30 since the added heatdump outdo the gain from the higher flow....

[Whokidmo]

not some lowly lurker.

A wise man speaks because he has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something. - Plato

I dont speak much on this forum, but thats not because I dont contribute or help members. Thats because it's already been or being done. So i found my place on this forum. If i remember correctly, what was the term many people used? XSfamily? well think of me as the smart nerdy over-acheiving younger brother who only speaks to correct you.