ATI Radeon HD 4000 Series discussion

[FischOderAal]

it also seems that once you switch on Physx on the nv gpu that it cuts framrates , so they will be advising 2 or 3 gpu solutions so it wont really be put to much use by normal pc users/gamers

the way it has always been advertised by NVIDIA and ATI/AMD.

Remember the slides? CF with two graphic cards plus one additionally card for physics only. This goes back years.

[zerazax]

Where is the PhysX list? And AFAIK, except for a few games where effects require the card itself, most games install the API and work off the CPU. Anyways, Havok claims around 150 titles and here they are:

Past Releases
Recent Games
Upcoming Releases

Just looking at those titles, big sellers like BioShock, FEAR, Half Life 2, Company of Heroes, Dawn of War, Assassin's Creed will certainly tip the favor in Intel and AMD in this case.

Also, big upcoming releases: Fallout 3 and Starcraft 2

[Xello]

http://www.havok.com/content/blogcategory/29/73/

http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_physxgames_home.html

I was only counting PC titles, i doubt PSP(etc) titles are going to matter much in the whole 'war' between the 2 on the pc.

Both lists seem to be incomplete actually, can't find any full ones.

[Papu]

AMD on the other hand have found a magic box that allows acceleration without the performance hit? (any sources?)

For PC games i count 44 for Havok and 74 for Physx (from the 'partial list' on that site), I was quick and may be 1 or 2 off, but i'm way too lazy to do it again

yes but when you buy an expensive graphics card like the new GTX280 and then can't PhysX. where as the Ati was has turned to multiGpu setups 2x4850's > 1x280 however it has yet to bee seen if crossfire setups will make better use of physics than a single card.

anyway it wont be a major factor for a while , where is it really needed , it would be cool , but a little farfetched...

[003]

Havock as far more Games then PhysX.
PhysX was a failure since the begining. They have UT3 and some others, but Havock have far way much more games.

Yes, but the games using havok are all older, and use modified engines. Plus, the level of physics integration in games that use havok is minimal, and has been done for years now.

PhysX is going to change that. Just wait and see.

[Hornet331]

Yes, but the games using havok are all older, and use modified engines. Plus, the level of physics integration in games that use havok is minimal, and has been done for years now.

PhysX is going to change that. Just wait and see.

not with intel behind havoc, especial when they want to bump multicores for physics.

[Xello]

PhysX is going to change that

I did hope so, up until the recent AMD+Havok announcement If they took on physx then there would be no 'situation', every GPU in every machine would support one physics API and developers would have a reason to really see what they could do with it, and it could have been the final step towards seeing what physics acceleration could really bring. That was the dream anyway..

As it stands now, it's just even more fractured and the dream may be fading In the end the ones to suffer from that are me and you, unfortunately.

What a weird, unpredictable relationship we have these days with the 3 big companies.

[zerazax]

Basically it comes down to this

No matter what people say about ATI owning only 25% of the discrete GPU market, it's still 25% of your possible base. Developers will never alienate 25% of their potential customer base unless they want to be removed by their bosses and shareholders.

This was why previous games w/ PhysX effects that required a PhysX card were all optional effects and were more for show than practical use - because no developer is stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot by requiring people to upgrade/change video cards when the game runs fine otherwise.

It's why PhysX was labeled a failure long before Nvidia bought it - because it was a catch-22 situation. You force people to use the PhysX card and then no one buys the game unless they have the money to buy that + the hardware. You remove the need for the PhysX card but then you can't enable the sophisticated cool stuff that could make a game. PC game developers are very against taking risks in this day and age and they always tend to play it safe (except Crytek it seems, but look at their poor sales figures on Crysis).

And besides, with Intel still pushing multi-cores + their own discrete GPU Larrabee, there is no doubt in my mind that Intel is pushing hard to ensure that they can't be shut out.

[Xello]

Developers will never alienate 25% of their potential customer base unless they want to be removed by their bosses and shareholders.

This was why previous games w/ PhysX effects that required a PhysX card were all optional effects and were more for show than practical use - because no developer is stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot by requiring people to upgrade/change video cards when the game runs fine otherwise.

Exactly.

Love 'em or hate 'em, what NV originally proposed when they bought Ageia had great promise - both NV and DAAMIT using the same API leading to 'the dream' i mentioned above.

Now with them taking different sides, we won't really see anything, just a continuation of what we've seen so far - optional extras that don't begin to tap the potential on offer.

[Hornet331]

yeah crysis sold really poor... passed platnium mark (1 million seales) in jannuary 08....

anyways, my personal opionion is that, physics on anything beside cpus have no feature. Especial if your looking at intel future plans (terascale, that cores want to get some work to.)

[Papu]

Nvidia dont get on with anybody , i never heard anything about PhyisX on anything else than Nvidia gpu's. but with intel and AMD behind the havok movement it seems more likely to succeed , everyone has cpus

[zerazax]

Yeah, 1 million worldwide and after newer better and cheaper video cards came out (The G92's and RV670s) that made it finally affordable for people to play

Remember this? http://www.computerandvideogames.com....php?id=177667

First month a grand total of 87,000 sales in the US. I'm glad they sold a million worldwide, but when one of your biggest targets during the holiday season no less fails to sell what you wanted to, well it certainly made them contemplate never making PC-only games again

[Eson]

Physics on GPU is a waste when we have quad processors that have(has?) nothing to do.

[zerazax]

Just realized that this wasn't posted yet... article is from today.

From EETimes:

"We didn't want to come out with one monolithic GPU and then disable parts of it for different markets," said an AMD spokesman prior to a full disclosure of the part in a briefing in San Francisco on June 16.

The strategy makes sense for the financially troubled AMD which also has laid out conservative road maps for its computer processors. The graphics choice reduces costs and risks while maximizing returns for the company which has suffered through multiple loss-making quarters.

The decision to use a two-chip strategy for the high end was made more than two years ago, based on an analysis of yields and scalability. It was not related to AMD's recent financial woes, said Rick Bergman, general manager of AMD's graphics division.

"I predict our competitor will go down the same path for its next GPU once they see this," Bergman said. "They have made their last monolithic GPU."

"On paper the AMD approach looks good," said Jon Peddie, principal of graphics market watcher Jon Peddie Research (Tiburon, Calif.). "If it works, it will be a significant shift in how GPUs are made, but we won't know until later this year" when customers can test the new parts, he said.

AMD says its 4850 device at about 110 W and $199 will deliver about 75 percent of the performance of Nvidia's high-end GTX280 which costs $649 and dissipates 236W. Two of the AMD parts on a board will hit graphics benchmarks about 30 percent higher than the Nvidia device, the AMD spokesman added.

A 4870 version of the product sporting slightly higher performance will cost $299. Both AMD chips are made in a 55nm process, compared to 65nm for the Nvidia chips, and measure about 16x16mm compared to about 24x24mm for the Nvidia part. The approach gives Nvidia bragging rights for the single most powerful graphics processor, an edge that plays well to the gaming and technical communities who use the parts.

Read the rest at the link, good stuff

[Hornet331]

Just realized that this wasn't posted yet... article is from today.

From EETimes:



Read the rest at the link, good stuff

uhhhh the irony... monolithic is not the way to go, and that comes from amd?

anyways, im curious about the interconnect hes mentioning. If it is this ominous "crossfire x sideport", maybe ill wait for the release of the X2.

[eleeter]

uhhhh the irony... monolithic is not the way to go, and that comes from amd?

Uhhhhh the stupidity of comparing a CPU with a GPU. Leave that to Nvidia.

...but I admit there is irony just the same.

[Syn.]

I did hope so, up until the recent AMD+Havok announcement If they took on physx then there would be no 'situation', every GPU in every machine would support one physics API and developers would have a reason to really see what they could do with it, and it could have been the final step towards seeing what physics acceleration could really bring. That was the dream anyway..

As it stands now, it's just even more fractured and the dream may be fading In the end the ones to suffer from that are me and you, unfortunately.

What a weird, unpredictable relationship we have these days with the 3 big companies.

You forget that AMD is in a position to support both Havok and Physx. One to run on their CPU's and the other for their GPU's.

[mascaras]

The ATI Radeon HD 4870 Is Prepped For Launch!


While we were at Computex 2008, we were told by at least 3 ATI partners that the Radeon HD 4870 was not ready for launch anytime soon, and that if anyone was showing one off, it would have to be a mechanical mockup. We were also told that ATI had decided to delay the launch of their Radeon HD 4850 graphics card from June 18 to June 25, 2008.

At first, we figured that ATI pushed back the Radeon HD 4850's launch date to avoid the launch of the NVIDIA GTX 280 and GTX 260 graphics cards which was scheduled, coincidentally or intentionally, for the day before the ATI launch. Perhaps that was originally the reason but we now understand that the delay has also allowed them to launch the Radeon HD 4870 together with the Radeon HD 4850.

Earlier leaked reports had certainly suggested that both the Radeon HD 4870 and the Radeon HD 4850 would be launched together, but as recent as Computex 2008, ATI partners were telling us that the Radeon HD 4870 was "just not ready" to be launched. One ATI partner even told us to expect it around the middle of July.

However, it looks that they finally managed to fix whatever issues they had with the Radeon HD 4870 because one of the same ATI partners we talked to earlier has just informed us that their Radeon HD 4870 card has been finalized and will start shipping next week, just in time for the June 25 launch. So, come June 25, ATI will not only officially launch the Radeon HD 4850 but also the Radeon HD 4870.

We are not sure if the launch will include the other ATI Radeon HD cards rumoured to be launched at the same time, like the dual-GPU Radeon HD 4870 X2, the Radeon HD 4600 series (4670 and 4650), and the Radeon HD 4400 series (4470 and 4450), but we know for sure that the Radeon HD 4870 is fully prepped for its official launch this June 25!

When it is officially launched on June 25, the ATI Radeon HD 4870 will be the first graphics card in the world to use GDDR5 memory. Whether that technological superiority will yield any real performance or marketing advantage to ATI, however, remains to be seen...

http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=554

regards

[ghost101]

What are the specs of the HD 4650/70? Similar to the HD 3850/70?

[ChaosMinionX]

any AMD companies with a step up program?

[zerazax]

Either the partners were right that there were no 4870's ready or perhaps AMD was pulling the same game they did with 800SP's... interesting!

[zerazax]

Interesting notes collected:

RV770 architecture image shows a "Cr..." blocked by the PCINLIFE.com mark on the image. Some at b3d are speculating it means "Crossbar" - and at the end of it, it is connected to a module called "Global Data Share." Also of note is that the picture shows "CrossfireX Port." Neither were seen in R600 and seem to add credence to the idea that R700 is more than just CF on a card.

Also from the extremetech review of the GTX 280, Jason Cross, the editor wrote (bold emphasis):

Then there's the question of what ATI has up its sleeves, given that they're on the verge of releasing their new graphics cards based on the new RV770 chip. ATI tells us they're not going to compete in this really high-end of the market with those products.

Rather, they promise we'll get close to the performance of the GTX 200 cards (say within 20&#37 at dramatically lower prices and power. Certainly that targets a much larger segment of the market, but the worth of that strategy all hinges on its real relative performance. For the high-end, ATI is still a couple months away from the release of their card containing two RV670 GPUs.

We don't know what shape that will take, only that it will combine two GPUs on a card in a substantially different fashion than the Radeon HD 3870 X2, and that ATI tells us that with not-yet-fully optimized drivers it already scores over 6,000 in 3DMark Vantage on Extreme settings. We've heard promises of future greatness before, and reserve judgment until we get the cards in our own hands to run our own tests.

Source

He claimed to have met ATI last week on the B3D forums and has been reliable about these kinds of things before so I see no reason to doubt him.

These next few weeks will be interesting! I love summer GPU wars

[cadaveca]

It won't be much of a war. Don't expect too much, now.

[disruptfam]

what are the chances of the 4870 beating out the 280gtx?

[bill_d]

none, but the gtx260 yes