AMD FX-8150 Bulldozer finally tested

[Gener_AL (UK)]

oh while we have an Intel chap here in AMD thread discussing the benefits on SB, can yo please expand on the DRM architechture within SB and future generations?
Might as well ask eh.
http://blogs.intel.com/technology/20...t_is_it_no.php

No please don't let me stop you, if you cant answer then please bang your head on the door on the way out.

[Drwho?]

We love you Movieman :-)

[Opteron146]

I propose you take a simple linear algorithm and run it on one thread, then, count the number of instructions retired, and then, divide by the number of clock ticks ... You ll be surprise ;-)
( make sure your code is totally compute, with 1 to 2 instructions dependency ... )

I guess your point is, that it is next to 1?

Power point are one thing, but measuring and checking yourself is much better ... Otherwise , at 4.2ghz, how could you explain the poor performance of BD on superPI? Low IPC ... Then, ask yourself, if you measure the IPC for each thread, why it never goes about 2 on a single thread ... Please experiment before trying to correct me. I did my homework ;-)

Why should I be interested in code that is more than 10 years old when the Pentium1 was state of art and MMX the most modern instruction set extension? If you want, we can discuss cinebench, much more interesting and BD's performance is very bad there, too. Any guesses what is happening there?

Then , for your intel diagram, you forgot to count code fusion ... SandyB is 4 large + Fusion ... That gives you up to 5!

Well yes, for 2 threads.
Furthermore that's not my diagram, it is intel's diagram ;-) There are only 4 decoders, but these can decode 4+1 x86 instructions. If you say that there are "5 decoders" because of that, then I would assume you work in marketing ;-)

We saw a lot of powerpoint slide, but the measurement don t match what is showed in the ppt, sorry, you assume the marketing slide are correct, this is where is the gap. I looked for everywhere, I could not find anywhere clearly said that it will decode more than 2 per threads, and match it with an ASM code doing more than 2 IPC , did you try?

If you only measure retired instructions then well ... there are only 2 INT pipes, obviously the max IPC of these is 2. Question is now do you want to say that it is only 1 in most cases?
Unfortunately, I cant measure myself, did not buy a BD yet, and I am not sure if I will in the future ;-)

Well guessing from the bad performance numbers I would believe an IPC of ~1. IPC has to be low, obviously. The big question is why. Imo the decoders are the last problem. For example how about AMD's version of Fusion, does that not work?

[Drwho?]

Just do your home work, thanks.
Figure your max IPC ( it is not 1) ... And well, then ... You conclude what ever you want, I know my answer, very happy of it ... But I am sure you know better than I do ;-)

[miptzi]

As I remember Movieman didn't test the system or use the parts until the 12th. So he is pretty much innocent in regards to prehype.

What happened to movieman and the rest of us, is we were explicitly lied too by AMD marketing department, who cannot get enough criticism. They lied to such an extent, that they cannot be trusted again, considering the impact it has had on our purchases. Movieman was bound by NDA and could not release results from the actual hardware. On top of that, due to the favorable treatment AMD gave him, he was more inclined to believe AMD was not lying to him. They treated him nice with an ulterior motive. Most of us have fallen for this at some point.

A lot of us believed the AMD hype, which is understandable considering the research time and the complexity/size of the chip. BD has twice as much transistors/cores as sandy bridge(and sandy bridge has a IGP built into it) and should perform much better than it does. Most of us if we looked at what amd has released to the public prior to the information released(and not taking into account stuff indirectly related(like executives losses, stock drops and etc), shown BD to be a good chip.

If AMD flew you out, put on an event that made you feel like a king, and put on a marketing speel that was designed to fool the participants involved into thinking BD was a very good product. Most of us would believe AMD, except the very sceptical or intel Fanboyish.

Movieman never tested the stuff prior to October 12 and the only stuff he had to go on without breaking NDA or even being unfair by testing unreleased hardware, was the stuff AMD told him. That's the bottomline.

simply perfect. On spot!

[Opteron146]

Just do your home work, thanks.

I already told you that I can't:

I cant measure myself, did not buy a BD yet, and I am not sure if I will in the future ;-)

"Cant" like in "i can not".
You just make some assumptions, add some incorrect decoder information and then you expect I believe you?
Either put your stuff on the table, then we can discuss it, or leave the thread. AFAIK, this is still a discussion board here, not a quiz show.

Thank you

[Drwho?]

I already told you that I can't:

"Cant" like in "i can not".
You just make some assumptions, add some incorrect decoder information and then you expect I believe you?
Either put your stuff on the table, then we can discuss it, or leave the thread. AFAIK, this is still a discussion board here, not a quiz show.

Thank you

Well, you assume that I am incorrect, I know you are ... I did put the stuff on the table, I told you, I tried a permutation of codes to figure out how large the decoding capability, and i ended up with 2 IPC per thread ... sorry ... If you had a part, you would end up with the same number , you can throw at me as much Powerpoint persentations as you can, you are not going to change my mind.

you are free to trust your powerpoint presentation, I don't mind, you are just a little bit too quick to say that somebody is wrong, without even a part in your hands ... don't you think it is a little too much?

PS: Yeap, you can design code to figure out the specs of a CPU, it is a nice practice, you should try.

With Respect,
Francois

[BeepBeep2]

Well, you assume that I am incorrect, I know you are ... I did put the stuff on the table, I told you, I tried a permutation of codes to figure out how large the decoding capability, and i ended up with 2 IPC per thread ... sorry ... If you had a part, you would end up with the same number , you can throw at me as much Powerpoint persentations as you can, you are not going to change my mind.

you are free to trust your powerpoint presentation, I don't mind, you are just a little bit too quick to say that somebody is wrong, without even a part in your hands ... don't you think it is a little too much?

PS: Yeap, you can design code to figure out the specs of a CPU, it is a nice practice, you should try.

With Respect,
Francois

I think you are both wrong.

Him for accusing you of being incorrect and you for sitting on your high horse.

[Movieman]

As I remember Movieman didn't test the system or use the parts until the 12th. So he is pretty much innocent in regards to prehype.

What happened to movieman and the rest of us, is we were explicitly lied too by AMD marketing department, who cannot get enough criticism. They lied to such an extent, that they cannot be trusted again, considering the impact it has had on our purchases. Movieman was bound by NDA and could not release results from the actual hardware. On top of that, due to the favorable treatment AMD gave him, he was more inclined to believe AMD was not lying to him. They treated him nice with an ulterior motive. Most of us have fallen for this at some point.

A lot of us believed the AMD hype, which is understandable considering the research time and the complexity/size of the chip. BD has twice as much transistors/cores as sandy bridge(and sandy bridge has a IGP built into it) and should perform much better than it does. Most of us if we looked at what amd has released to the public prior to the information released(and not taking into account stuff indirectly related(like executives losses, stock drops and etc), shown BD to be a good chip.

If AMD flew you out, put on an event that made you feel like a king, and put on a marketing speel that was designed to fool the participants involved into thinking BD was a very good product. Most of us would believe AMD, except the very sceptical or intel Fanboyish.

Movieman never tested the stuff prior to October 12 and the only stuff he had to go on without breaking NDA or even being unfair by testing unreleased hardware, was the stuff AMD told him. That's the bottomline.

Another one I have to answer.
First of all I've been around the block a few times ok?
I've dealt with all types of people in my life and even spent a little time in marketing during my 10 years at SOHIO back in the 80's.
Not my cup of tea to be honest but I know the game.
Also understand that I can sit back and be very appreciative of the trip to Austin and the VERY gracious way we were treated there BUT separate that from the capabilities of the products.
IE: Someone wining and dining me doesn't toss a blanket over my head to the truth or effect what I write even though one appreciates the time and expense of the trip to that company.
Also you make a good point that after being treated that well it is natural not to want to write anything negative and yes, like most people that crossed my mind but when all is done you come back to if you write anything but the truth you've dishonored yourself.
It's really that simple..
Now I did run into some unexpected issues that have nothing to do with the build and thats why I haven't posted yet.
I will and soon and will post what I see.
The main point I want to make is that don't read anything into that I haven't posted yet.
To do so would be a mistake on your end.
Ok, now back to our regulary scheduled typical BLUE VS GREEN slugfest!

I think you are both wrong.

Him for accusing you of being incorrect and you for sitting on your high horse.

Hey BeepBeep, play nice huh?
Also keep in mind that Francois has probably forgotten more about cpu design than 90+% of the people on this forum know.
He may not always say it in the most diplomatic way( He's French ok? ) but his info is usually spot on.

[AliG]

Hey BeepBeep, play nice huh?
Also keep in mind that Francois has probably forgotten more about cpu design than 90+% of the people on this forum know.
He may not always say it in the most diplomatic way( He's French ok? ) but his info is usually spot on.

lol Movieman I had no idea you were a master of the backhanded compliment lmao

[Movieman]

lol Movieman I had no idea you were a master of the backhanded compliment lmao

I just caught what you mean..touche..
BUT I think everyone knows what I was trying to say.
Francois is a sharp dude who knows his field.
I've met and spoken with him and trust me, he's no dummy.
Now he is French and even though he's been in the US for years and speaks excellent English, French is his native language and
we do cut him just a tad of slack on that point.

[AliG]

lol I don't really know much about the guy, I just found it to be an amusing way of complimenting him.

On a side note though, maybe Terrance actually was right. The more he posted the more ipc decreased

[Opteron146]

Well, you assume that I am incorrect, I know you are ... I did put the stuff on the table, I told you, I tried a permutation of codes to figure out how large the decoding capability, and i ended up with 2 IPC per thread
... sorry ... If you had a part, you would end up with the same number , you can throw at me as much Powerpoint persentations as you can, you are not going to change my mind.

Fine, if you say so, I believe you. However your "5 decoders" information was wrong. Furthermore you did ignore my question why intel should be better. There are also only 4 decoders for 2 threads if SMT is activated.
Wrong information + ignoring -> lower trust -> less credibility.

you are free to trust your powerpoint presentation, I don't mind, you are just a little bit too quick to say that somebody is wrong, without even a part in your hands ... don't you think it is a little too much?

I didnt say that you are wrong in the IPC case, I just said that you are wrong with your decoder counting. Furthermore, the little picture that you nicely promoted to a whole "powerpoint presentation" was published in IEEE Micro March/April 2011. Of course it also came with an additional text:

Each block indicates a local pipeline that
forms a different thread switch domain.
Once a thread switch decision has b ee n
made at the start of the local pipeline, the de-
cision propagat es the pipeline’s length. A
thread switch can occur as o ften as every
cycle, so multiple threads c an be in flight
in the pipelines, but never in the same pipe-
stage. Decoupling queues, which exist for the
normal pipelining of the front-end, serve as
the different domains’ boundaries. Concep-
tually, the FPU c oprocessor’s front end is
an extension of the dispatch thread domain.

Now I believe you, but also I believe the authors of that paper (Michael Butler,Leslie Barnes,Debjit Das Sarma, Bob Gelinas). These people should at least know what they build. Thus my conclusion is:
There is a bug, or the less likely cases: They lied or your measurements were insufficient.

PS: Yeap, you can design code to figure out the specs of a CPU, it is a nice practice, you should try.

Yes, nothing new. But thanks for stating it for the other readers ;-)

regards

Opteron

[mav2000]

Another one I have to answer.
First of all I've been around the block a few times ok?
I've dealt with all types of people in my life and even spent a little time in marketing during my 10 years at SOHIO back in the 80's.
Not my cup of tea to be honest but I know the game.
Also understand that I can sit back and be very appreciative of the trip to Austin and the VERY gracious way we were treated there BUT separate that from the capabilities of the products.
IE: Someone wining and dining me doesn't toss a blanket over my head to the truth or effect what I write even though one appreciates the time and expense of the trip to that company.
Also you make a good point that after being treated that well it is natural not to want to write anything negative and yes, like most people that crossed my mind but when all is done you come back to if you write anything but the truth you've dishonored yourself.
It's really that simple..
Now I did run into some unexpected issues that have nothing to do with the build and thats why I haven't posted yet.
I will and soon and will post what I see.
The main point I want to make is that don't read anything into that I haven't posted yet.
To do so would be a mistake on your end.
Ok, now back to our regulary scheduled typical BLUE VS GREEN slugfest!

And thats probably what most of us/all of us would expect of a person like you. I did have high hopes for BD and it was fueled by a lot of comments on a lot of forums to go even higher. JF-AMD's continued presence on the forums and his disdain for leaked benches also added to the hype, in my own mind. Unfortunately the numbers out as of now dont really seem to be great. I could probably be fine with the performance, but the power draw is way out man...there is no way that something is not wrong.

When you say "technical difficulties" I would love to believe that it has something to do with BD, as I also hear the Asus seem to be all in a tizzy about something or the other. Again its all assumptions at this point of time and I hope you will share some good news with us poor guys with 990FX boards soon.

BTW, I cant blame anyone for my purchases but myself, so to everyone else, please dont get this wrong. I am only trying to find out if the light at the end of the tunnel is a train coming at me or movieman with good news on BD.

[mav2000]

Double posting again...whats wrong...BD seems to be messing with my mind and laptop as well....

[tajoh111]

I wasn't saying you were naive Movieman. Simply human natures compels a person to treat a person nice, when they get treated nice in return. I very well expect you to write the truth about BD in your review, as right now, your no longer strapped by NDA, and first and for most, your a tech enthusiast, not a paid advertiser.

The information, you mentioned ahead of NDA was very general and nothing you mentioned made it sound like you played with the hardware and tested it yourself yet.

Honestly the results from BD ahead of time would have fooled the best of us. BD had 5 years of research and the already information, had us to believe it would be to some extent competitive on multiple levels. How bad it performed blind sided alot of people was not a surprise because it was well disguised by marketing. It for some reason reminds me of what would normally be a really hot chick: nice rack(32nm), nice face(8 cores) and a nice bum(2 billion transistors). However take off the thong after your bring her home and what you find, is that she is a chick with a .

[railer]

Spectacular FAIL!!!

Five years in research and we get this?
Could this even beat my old q6600 at 4g in games?

I HOPE that it's a bug. No good mb support? Why is it slower than phenom in single threaded application ....

Forget about lower cpu prices from Intel.

[ilkkahy]

Ive thought this before but i wonder would it be possible to fuse one different core to multi core cpu that is designed just for maximum single thread performance?

xtremesystems has been awfully slow today.. their server upgraded to Bulldozers???

[gosh]

JF-AMD's continued presence on the forums and his disdain for leaked benches also added to the hype, in my own mind. Unfortunately the numbers out as of now dont really seem to be great. I could probably be fine with the performance, but the power draw is way out man...there is no way that something is not wrong.

This is a good post: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=...4&postcount=30

On the server side (where JF-AMD is) it looks good

[Drwho?]

I just caught what you mean..touche..
BUT I think everyone knows what I was trying to say.
Francois is a sharp dude who knows his field.
I've met and spoken with him and trust me, he's no dummy.
Now he is French and even though he's been in the US for years and speaks excellent English, French is his native language and
we do cut him just a tad of slack on that point.

Hehehe ... no no , Marquis de Sad stuff ... I like being beat up
yes , yes , yes!!!

[FlanK3r]

NO, NO, AND NO! FX is not tragic, as many people want to see it . How many from us read most of reviews? How many of us thinking about benchmarks or real aplications? Do u using home every day superpi or excel? Also 3DMark06 or working in Photoshop? Its real some Sysmakr or time in compression/decompression? Its about this! Look at example one of good review (most of them are real aplications). I dont say, FX is great, but still I dont agree with FX is fail.

[richierich]

I agree with FlanK3r. I'll think I'll go ahead and get a BD just to test myself, especially when bumping up the NB. I might just wait for the next revision though, much like C2 to C3 was a great improvement, and then from C3 to E0.

[Olivon]

He may not always say it in the most diplomatic way( He's French ok? ) but his info is usually spot on.

You maybe prefer the marketing way, this one who told you that with Bulldozer, AMD definitely got a winner ?

Come on dude ! You were "marketly abused" and didn't see that was just a smoke grenade !

FX is not a winner at all. I just hope that Piledriver will deliver, for God's sake ...

[Evantaur]

i'd like to know how interlagos manages on WCG

also if they manage to fix power consumption on FX i'll buy one, idle load is awesome but unfortunately none of my computers understands what idle means

[M.Beier]

Dave, if you are reading this, I would certainly recommend a new avatar