Japan quakes

**saaya** · 03-17-2011, 04:35 AM

i dont believe those radiation levels AT ALL...
they reported 400 MILI sieverts yesterday, and today its back to MICRO sieverts? yet they are very worried about radiation, a lot more than yesterday, and aborted the helicopter mission and police truck mission because of high radiation...

LIVE: another earthquake hits japan, around 3-4
luckily no tsunami...
but all trains have stopped
could be felt in tokyo
update: it was a 5.8 quake, but the effects in cities closest to it were around 4.x

**Postmodum** · 03-17-2011, 04:38 AM

3-4 isn't enough for tsunami.

As for the news, i'm reading Kyodo's.
One thing i really think it's not very effective, is the dropping of water, by helicopters, at that height ... We see the wind spreading the water all over.... meh ...

**Musho** · 03-17-2011, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Postmodum

3-4 isn't enough for tsunami.

As for the news, i'm reading Kyodo's.
One thing i really think it's not very effective, is the dropping of water, by helicopters, at that height ... We see the wind spreading the water all over.... meh ...

They can't get any closer due to radiation levels apparently

**saaya** · 03-17-2011, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by Postmodum

3-4 isn't enough for tsunami.
As for the news, i'm reading Kyodo's.
One thing i really think it's not very effective, is the dropping of water, by helicopters, at that height ... We see the wind spreading the water all over.... meh ...

that was in the morning, and they aborted that mission quickly, then they focussed on watercannon trucks and that worked... to what degree, nobody knows...
but i supposed it worked as they stopped the operation instead of refilling the trucks and heading straight back...

nhk reports: when asked why they took so extraordinary steps to refill the storage pools, they said "today was the last chance"
a very controversial quote which scared the public... it sounds as if something big would have happened if they could not have refilled the pool in reactor4 today

**Postmodum** · 03-17-2011, 04:56 AM

Maybe there are damaging to the containment vessels ... and they can't get another explosion... :x jeez...

Fukushima power plant was a gen 2 correct? Are the gen 3 any safer?

**saaya** · 03-17-2011, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Postmodum

Maybe there are damaging to the containment vessels ... and they can't get another explosion... :x jeez...

Fukushima power plant was a gen 2 correct? Are the gen 3 any safer?

as far as i know, gen3 cool themselves automatically based on convection, hot water moving up by itself, and cold water moving down. they dont require any intervention and electricity, they are supposedly able to shut down automatically without any intervention and external power whatsoever... then again, this cooling system COULD get damaged by strong earthquakes or other disasters as well, so... even gen3 reactors wont be 100% safe...

ANOTHER quake, again 4.x

**Postmodum** · 03-17-2011, 05:02 AM

These smaller quakes are the tectonic plates, re-positioning ... it will take some time ... :x
As for the Gen 3 plants ... well .. i think this accident will be a starting point to rethink nuclear power plants... unfortunately...
I don't believe that nuclear power will go away, but there will be further R&D on safety measures for sure ... and maybe... they will try to not install a power plant in the coast line?! ... that would be a good options imo ...

No one talked abut the vulcano that erupted just after the quake ... it was an isolated eruption ?

**PaganII** · 03-17-2011, 05:16 AM

I don't know what the news is saying over there but in the US the helicopter mission was stopped before the 1st 40 minute shift was completed. They may have "dropped" 30 tons of water but if you saw the video most of the water was scatterred by the wind. The water cannons were pulled back because the radiation was too high.

**Jamesrt2004** · 03-17-2011, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by saaya

ive been saying the same thing, worst case scenario i expect most of the radiation to leak into the seawater seeing as fukushima is next to the ocean and close to sea level...
so yeah, sushi might be expensive in the future... (im going to have sushi for dinner tonight :P)

but yeah, this is pretty distatesteful to report in a newspaper when so many people are suffering and in such a bad situation... the lack of empathy is saddening...

electric power generators at the plant are NOT functional since they have been covered in salt water/sea water, so they are probably shorted...
thats why they are planning to set up "make-shift" pumps... (whatever that means)

As you should know sushi is just the way to cook the rice :p no need of fishes!!

Ahh the reactors are getting worse :/ worst thing if its a domino effect and ends up not being able to go near it at all :/

**saaya** · 03-17-2011, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by Postmodum

These smaller quakes are the tectonic plates, re-positioning ... it will take some time ... :x
As for the Gen 3 plants ... well .. i think this accident will be a starting point to rethink nuclear power plants... unfortunately...
I don't believe that nuclear power will go away, but there will be further R&D on safety measures for sure ... and maybe... they will try to not install a power plant in the coast line?! ... that would be a good options imo ...

No one talked abut the vulcano that erupted just after the quake ... it was an isolated eruption ?

nothing about the volcano, don't think it was serious and doubt it affected a lot of people

Originally Posted by PaganII

I don't know what the news is saying over there but in the US the helicopter mission was stopped before the 1st 40 minute shift was completed. They may have "dropped" 30 tons of water but if you saw the video most of the water was scatterred by the wind. The water cannons were pulled back because the radiation was too high.

Nono, that was just a test, if it would have worked it would have been better because they can get in and out quickly. My guess is that the soldiers flying those didn't like the risk, that's why they didn't get very close.

Then they tried a police truck with watercannon but it was too weak, then they tried fire trucks with watercannons and those worked. And that's the 30tons they talk about. It def went into the building of reactor3 but they aren't sure how much ended up in the pool...

**Think** · 03-17-2011, 06:04 AM

I find it astonishing that there are 55 reactors in Japan, mainly due to there lack of resources such as gas and oil and there feverish drive for dependency after the 1970 oil crisis...that's 55 reactors!

**saaya** · 03-17-2011, 06:05 AM

I'm confused why nothing else is happening today... they plan to spray more water onto reactor 3 and 4 and install new pumps and power lines. Well... so what are they waiting for? It almost sounds like they are going home now and take a rest and will be back tomorrow? 0_o

I know that's not the case, but... its weird...

**saaya** · 03-17-2011, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Think

I find it astonishing that there are 55 reactors in Japan, mainly due to there lack of resources such as gas and oil and there feverish drive for dependency after the 1970 oil crisis...that's 55 reactors!

Isn't it 55 plants?
Fukushima counts as 1 plant and it has 6 reactors...

**[XC] gomeler** · 03-17-2011, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Postmodum

Maybe there are damaging to the containment vessels ... and they can't get another explosion... :x jeez...

Fukushima power plant was a gen 2 correct? Are the gen 3 any safer?

There are much safer designs in existence than boiling water. I'm a big fan of molten salt reactors. The fuel is intermixed with the coolant and in the case of an "oh

" scenario the molten salt core is dumped into passively cooled storage tanks. Since the core is already molten it is designed to be contained. If all cooling power is lost the core automatically dumps itself. Lastly, the core operates at very low pressure but very high temperature and with no water present there is no chance at a pressure explosion.

edit: Wikipedia has a nice article going over the MSR -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_Fluoride_Reactor

**Dr_Swizz** · 03-17-2011, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by saaya

I'm confused why nothing else is happening today... they plan to spray more water onto reactor 3 and 4 and install new pumps and power lines. Well... so what are they waiting for? It almost sounds like they are going home now and take a rest and will be back tomorrow? 0_o

I know that's not the case, but... its weird...

It might be that this is their last attempt of controling the plants and cooling them down and if this fails they will have start to encapsulate the reactors instead.
Watch the first video on this page:
http://rt.com/news/pessimism-fukishima-1-crisis/
It touches upon this subject.

**Think** · 03-17-2011, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by saaya

Isn't it 55 plants?
Fukushima counts as 1 plant and it has 6 reactors...

Reactors, not plants.

**NEOAethyr** · 03-17-2011, 06:58 AM

I'm not supposed to be posting in this thread but I was told it was ok.
As long as my post doesn't cause another uproar of sorts.

What's the life expectancy of the radiation around the area?
25 thousand years ???, or under a 100 ?

Is there a list of sites to gather radiation info from in realtime so I can make a kml for that in google earth... (globaly not just japan) ?

And what do you guys honestly think the "worse case" is ? (not to jump the gun or anything...)
1/3 of japan is no longer safe to live in ?
Or the whole country ?

**Kallenator** · 03-17-2011, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by saaya

i dont believe those radiation levels AT ALL...
they reported 400 MILI sieverts yesterday, and today its back to MICRO sieverts? yet they are very worried about radiation, a lot more than yesterday, and aborted the helicopter mission and police truck mission because of high radiation...

Consider the short half life of the radioactive gas, wind direction and other weather effects and variable amount of steam from the reactors. I think it could be possible.

Originally Posted by NEOAethyr;

Snip...

Originally Posted by josh1980

First, you have a typo. Iodine 131 is a concern from nuclear reactors.

Iodine contamination can lead to thyroid cancer if ingested. If you are likely to be exposed to it, your government will likely issue iodide pills. The pills will saturate your thyroid with iodine. Any additional iodine you might be exposed to(radioactive type) will not be able to be processed by your body and will be expelled through natural means. Radioactive Iodine 131 has a 1/2 life of about 8 days. So within a month or so Iodine will no longer be a significant concern.

Caesium 137 is the nasty stuff that is around chernobyl. Lucky for you the wind blows predominantly to the east. This would blow the majority of any contaminants in the air out into the open ocean. This will disperse the radioisotopes and will lower the contamination in the area. It sticks around for a while (30 years) so it can do some long term damage. It also is soluble in water, so it can potentially affect the water table. When Chernobyl happened it was expected that the water table would be contaminated. Instead the caesium collected in the soil and will have decayed away before reaching the water table.

Big picture, anything more than about 10 miles away is pretty safe as long as the winds aren't blowing it towards you. The direction of the winds and rain in the area will play a big part in where the contamination will go. I'm not an expert at contaminations and releases though. It's generally considered bad to have fuel leaking into the environment. So our training doesn't discuss the full lifespan of the isotopes released from a leaking reactor.

Edit: I had read somewhere that the highest radiation levels seen from the accident was about 150mrem/hr. The levels have dropped to around 2 to 3 now. It takes between 200 and 1000rem to start having fatal levels. But if you could have stayed in the highest radiation levels seen thus far AND the radiation levels didn't drop(which are pretty much guaranteed to drop anyway) until a conservatively fatal level of 200rem was reached, you'd have to stay in that area 24 hours a day for 54 days. All this hoopla about "high" levels is overrated. I've been looking at the radiation levels(the numbers, not this BS "1000x background) to figure out how "bad" it is. We've got a ways to go to see "real bad".

**NEOAethyr** · 03-17-2011, 07:13 AM

Tried using my prepaid to donate to the red cross but it won't allow me, wasted 3 mins :\.
I figured it would take something like 80mins off my 120 total but nope :|.
Says prepaid is supported but my phone says it's not allowed, it's blocked..., keh...

Edit:
Got $0 in paypal too, what to do what to do's... :\
Mmm...
Is there some sort of volunteer program ?, I'de hate to leave my kitty cat but...

**~~coolhandluke41~~** · 03-17-2011, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by saaya

I'm confused why nothing else is happening today... they plan to spray more water onto reactor 3 and 4 and install new pumps and power lines. Well... so what are they waiting for? It almost sounds like they are going home now and take a rest and will be back tomorrow? 0_o

I know that's not the case, but... its weird...

It's a lost cause .. and they know it ,all this cooling idea is bogus
All they can do now is bury the whole place under tons of concrete period

**dctokyo** · 03-17-2011, 07:48 AM

New video is up of the Fukushima Daiichi plant. Taken by a TEPCO employee. The situation looks bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXqiw6EJUk

**Micutzu** · 03-17-2011, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by NEOAethyr

What's the life expectancy of the radiation around the area?
25 thousand years ???, or under a 100 ?

Most of the stuff inside the reactor is uranium (U-235 and U-238) wich is not really dangerous by itself as it has a half-time measured in hundreds of millions of years; then there's Plutonium, isotope Pu-239 being used in small percentage as a fuel in reactor 3 but also being a byproduct of reaction in all the other reactors, and with a half-time of 24000 years is a bit more active. Large atomic mass and relatively high melting and boiling points means there is not a big danger of chemical contamination with them as well.

The really dangerous stuff is already described by josh1980, fast-decaying and soluble byproducts. Iodine 131 is the most dangerous on the short term (half-time 8 days) as it can be transported large distances by winds (low boiling point, 184 C, it can exit the reactor as a gas), but it decays rapidly and after a month the danger is close to zero. Caesium 137, although boils much harder (670 C) is very chemically active and the salts formed are soluble in water, also half-time is 30 years, so is this is spilled into enviroment it will make it uninhabitable for a long time.

**Postmodum** · 03-17-2011, 08:05 AM

jeee

how is the cooling supposed to work ?!? i see that the pipe system is a mess ... :x

**Think** · 03-17-2011, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by dctokyo

New video is up of the Fukushima Daiichi plant. Taken by a TEPCO employee. The situation looks bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXqiw6EJUk

Wish it had subtitles, but your right, the images alone look devastating. I think they should start disclosing more information.

**Loque** · 03-17-2011, 09:24 AM

Michio Kaku teleports to another interview:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...30567#42130567

Cooling efforts are 'like squirt guns against a forest fire"

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