Bulldoze that Sandy Bridge

[Movieman]

So, you are saying it is a good idea for a company to spend $5M in order to bring in a million in revenue?

The problem is not just the small size of the market and the fact that you will lose money. The real problem is that in spending the money to lose money you are bypassing the opportunity to spend the money and MAKE money. The $5M you invest to bring in a million in revenue would be better spent focusing on a product that can bring in $10M or $20M, right?

Given the choice between losing a few million and making a profit, where do you think a company should invest?

I think you should hire me to oversee your new dual socket workstation division..
Here's a thought for you "outside the box" as they say.
Since dualies do exist and will continue at least for the foreseeable future and they have always been regarded as part of the server division and validating server boards is more $$ than desktop,why not turn them over to the desktop division and be rid of all us crazed OC'ers.
I can hear you now:
Either your laughing or cursing my name..

[TheBlueChanell]

I'm interested in what the overall IPC increase is, I'd hope it would be a fair amount given how long Bulldozer has been in the works. AMD knows what they are up against, and they need to shine. Server side may be okay with higher core count vs. ipc but the desktop needs a large IPC increase from Phenom 2.

[jeremyshaw]

The best way to convince you would be to let you buy it and then face buyers remorse later, right

Just watch all the rumor mill sites take this as: JF-AMD states Bulldozer will ROFLPWN Sandy Bridge!!

[Lightman]

Just watch all the rumor mill sites take this as: JF-AMD states Bulldozer will ROFLPWN Sandy Bridge!!

I think it will with ease! [for server workloads]
8 cores vs 4 cores + HT, in most well threaded apps 4 module BD shouldn't have problem with i2600K. Of course Intel will have their 8 core SB on the market before end of year, but the question was about 4 core variant .

I wouldn't put much hope in SuperPi scores on AMD to catch SB, but gaming should be much better than on K10 and that means at least not so much behind SB.

I really can't wait to see even Stream benches, if not more! Where is s7e9h3n when you need him most

[jeremyshaw]

I think it will with ease! [for server workloads]
8 cores vs 4 cores + HT, in most well threaded apps 4 module BD shouldn't have problem with i2600K. Of course Intel will have their 8 core SB on the market before end of year, but the question was about 4 core variant .

I wouldn't put much hope in SuperPi scores on AMD to catch SB, but gaming should be much better than on K10 and that means at least not so much behind SB.

I really can't wait to see even Stream benches, if not more! Where is s7e9h3n when you need him most

Intel already have 8 core Nehalem (Beckton), much less 8 core SB (which due to the ring bus, should be easier to scale to many cores ).

[[XC] Oj101]

Same. A 200-300MHz improvement would be meh.

If it comes in at 3GHz with an IPC to match a 5GHz Thuban, who really cares what the stock frequency is? It's just an e-peen measure on its own

[zalbard]

If it comes in at 3GHz with an IPC to match a 5GHz Thuban, who really cares what the stock frequency is? It's just an e-peen measure on its own

I don't think anyone promised insane IPC improvements. What you're suggesting is nowhere near being possible. We've seen what the new arch is about, so we can more or less tell what to expect, IPC wise.

[[XC] Oj101]

Where is s7e9h3n when you need him most

AMEN! He normally crops up around this time.

[[XC] Oj101]

I don't think anyone promised insane IPC improvements. What you're suggesting is nowhere near being possible. We've seen what the new arch is about, so we can more or less tell what to expect, IPC wise.

It was an example. A 200MHz increase in clocks might blow us away

[Manicdan]

I don't think anyone promised insane IPC improvements. What you're suggesting is nowhere near being possible. We've seen what the new arch is about, so we can more or less tell what to expect, IPC wise.

my assumption is that we will see upper 3ghz at launch with 4ghz+ in turbo, that can beat a 5ghz thuban per core, but with 2 extra cores.

[zoomee]

my assumption is that we will see upper 3ghz at launch with 4ghz+ in turbo, that can beat a 5ghz thuban per core, but with 2 extra cores.

I hope so mate! - I placed my bets on Bulldozer late last year and bought a full AM3 setup (due to rumourville saying it was compatible) - to say I was highly dissapointed to learn I have to ditch the most expensive motherboard I've ever bought (CHIV) is an understatement. Most AMD users I've seen have already jumped and bought AM3 boards also - I can see a high number of enthusiast users switching to Intel due to this (me included - And I've been an AMD FAN for like 15 years now!)

AMD had better deliver with bulldozer - thats not a threat, but a realistic attitude (for both shareholders and consumers) otherwise they will be relegated to either the mobile or graphics only markets with anything that can't at least keep up with SB.

The FX branding introduction is slightly re-assurring that it will beat SB - but won't a newer intel platform be due out by then? Ivybridge I think.

Who cares about power useage in the consumer market? My PC is on all the time along with my NAS, two TV's and all the other electricity useage here in the UK and yet still my Eleccy bill is the last of my worries - it's amongst the lowest 3 bills hitting my bank account. I can understand in a server environment about power efficiencies but couldn't care less with my PC at home - IT HAS TO PWN - not be left behind pending 'another motherboard' upgrade - Can you tell I'm dissapointed with the X6 CPU's? lol

[Manicdan]

I hope so mate! - I placed my bets on Bulldozer late last year and bought a full AM3 setup (due to rumourville saying it was compatible) - to say I was highly dissapointed to learn I have to ditch the most expensive motherboard I've ever bought (CHIV) is an understatement.

AMD had better deliver with bulldozer - thats not a threat, but a realistic attitude otherwise they will be relegated to either the mobile or graphics only markets with anything that can't at least keep up with SB.

The FX branding introduction is slightly re-assurring that it will beat SB - but won't a newer intel platform be due out by then? Ivybridge I think.

Who cares about power useage in the consumer market? My PC is on all the time along with my NAS, two TV's and all the other electricity useage here in the UK and yet still my Eleccy bill is the last of my worries - it's amongst the lowest 3 bills hitting my bank account. I can understand in a server environment about power efficiencies but couldn't care less with my PC at home - IT HAS TO PWN - not be left behind pending 'another motherboard' upgrade - Can you tell I'm dissapointed with the X6 CPU's? lol

i thought the CHIV came out WAY after it was known that BD was only AM3+?
and power consumption of the x6 are incredible. i was worried that people would over volt them just a little and end up pulling 250W because the same thing would have done 170W in a quad. but it turned out to use up much less power per core than most of us thought possible. they really are as good as 45nm can get. so AMD will no doubt be able to do much better with 32nm and advanced turbo/power gating features. server or home, both will see awesome power consumption with BD. i honestly dont get why some people are shocked by the power draw of SB, it wasnt anything unexpected from a node shrink

[445533]

Given the choice between losing a few million and making a profit, where do you think a company should invest?

Whichever option gives you the most long term profits.

If investing in the professional and enthusiast side of things increases your reputation, increases the household use of the word AMD, and it at least breaks even then yes. In the grand scheme of things making the enthusiasts happy means making everyone else aware of AMD. You want to go for the larger consumer market of the unwashed masses? You guys need a well executed approach with higher end products for enthusiasts and professionals to talk about and buy, advertising for the rest, and make it easier for developers to produce software for your products. The way nvidia does it. People buy hardware to run software. We don't buy hardware just for the hell of it.

I can see how the move to re-brand ATi to AMD was fairly smart in the grand scheme of things, to make people more aware of the AMD platform. Unfortunately the new AMD Radeon logo looks cheap... like it's a bargain brand.

etc.

I think that a more consumer, professional, and small business oriented dual CPU platform could have a positive impact. The C32 platform looks like its halfway there but its missing a few things. Overclocking is a big one.

Worthwhile to at least send a few interns and get some info from dual-CPU users and who ever else could use it. Graphics designers are a big one since they always need more memory and more computing power and there's more of them now that everyone and their dog has Photoshop and 3DSMax/Maya.

[Lightman]

Intel already have 8 core Nehalem (Beckton), much less 8 core SB (which due to the ring bus, should be easier to scale to many cores ).

Well, I knew that. That's the reason of '8 core SB' in my post, specifically pointing to Dusty Bridge architecture variant for LGA2011. That's where all the fun will happen end of this year.

[FlanK3r]

rigt 4Q 2011 for IB. Think, again IB will be relased some months later Komodo. What about speculation about superpi 1M? How much time in second at default clock? I think, Zambezi get 1M about 14s at stock clocks (example 3500MHz chip). And you?

[eXa]

my assumption is that we will see upper 3ghz at launch with 4ghz+ in turbo, that can beat a 5ghz thuban per core, but with 2 extra cores.

More than 25% improvement in IPC
If so I would be very happy

Edit: If it OC like SB too (5ghz+ on water) i will wet my pants....

[JF-AMD]

Whichever option gives you the most long term profits.

If investing in the professional and enthusiast side of things increases your reputation, increases the household use of the word AMD, and it at least breaks even then yes. In the grand scheme of things making the enthusiasts happy means making everyone else aware of AMD. You want to go for the larger consumer market of the unwashed masses? You guys need a well executed approach with higher end products for enthusiasts and professionals to talk about and buy, advertising for the rest, and make it easier for developers to produce software for your products. The way nvidia does it. People buy hardware to run software. We don't buy hardware just for the hell of it.

I can see how the move to re-brand ATi to AMD was fairly smart in the grand scheme of things, to make people more aware of the AMD platform. Unfortunately the new AMD Radeon logo looks cheap... like it's a bargain brand.

etc.

I think that a more consumer, professional, and small business oriented dual CPU platform could have a positive impact. The C32 platform looks like its halfway there but its missing a few things. Overclocking is a big one.

Worthwhile to at least send a few interns and get some info from dual-CPU users and who ever else could use it. Graphics designers are a big one since they always need more memory and more computing power and there's more of them now that everyone and their dog has Photoshop and 3DSMax/Maya.

Investing in a platform that used to be .8% of the market then fell to .4% of the market (an nobody knows how low it is today) is not a winning nor profitable strategy.

Also, when you consider the enthusiast piece of the market is only in the single digits (IIRC) and that only a small fraction of those enthusiasts actually buy the $1000 desktop chips, it is pretty clear that having the top performing processor is not how you make a lot of money.

If you think there is a halo effect from the top part, consider that enthusiasts who understand processors would never buy an AMD processor for $300 or $500 that performed worse than the corresponding $300 or $500 intel processor - they would buy the best performance for their budget. That top score only makes them feel good AFTER they buy, if it is the same brand.

And, before anyone jumps on me, I am in the server busines, so this is me looking in at the enthusiast business, I have no impact on what they do.

[Sn0wm@n]

And look how good that turned out right? LOL.

i dont seem to be on the same page as you ... help me understand this post please ...

[demonkevy666]

The best way to convince you would be to let you buy it and then face buyers remorse later, right

you've got some confidence their.

I'm interested in what the overall IPC increase is, I'd hope it would be a fair amount given how long Bulldozer has been in the works. AMD knows what they are up against, and they need to shine. Server side may be okay with higher core count vs. ipc but the desktop needs a large IPC increase from Phenom 2.

this reminds me of song by queens of the stone age
"no one knows."

I don't think anyone promised insane IPC improvements. What you're suggesting is nowhere near being possible. We've seen what the new arch is about, so we can more or less tell what to expect, IPC wise.

AMD in tight spot usually produces something wonderful.

my assumption is that we will see upper 3ghz at launch with 4ghz+ in turbo, that can beat a 5ghz thuban per core, but with 2 extra cores.

honestly sometimes I wonder why they didn't bother with a Phenom II x8 MCM.
Thuban is kind of a large die surely making less money off them vs x4 is a bit of waste.

More than 25% improvement in IPC
If so I would be very happy

Edit: If it OC like SB too (5ghz+ on water) i will wet my pants....

that is what I hope is minim IPC over phenom II.

we actually already had 5-15% with K8 vs K10(phenom I), and another 2-5% with Phenom II.

[445533]

Also, when you consider the enthusiast piece of the market is only in the single digits (IIRC) and that only a small fraction of those enthusiasts actually buy the $1000 desktop chips, it is pretty clear that having the top performing processor is not how you make a lot of money.

I agree, but mostly because $1000 is too much for a CPU, and the cost for ECC memory, the motherboard etc.

The EVGA SR-2 did a smart thing which allowed us to use regular Unbuffered Non-ECC DDR3 memory in a computer. This lowers the cost and as consumers and prosumers we have no need for such features.

If you think there is a halo effect from the top part, consider that enthusiasts who understand processors would never buy an AMD processor for $300 or $500 that performed worse than the corresponding $300 or $500 intel processor - they would buy the best performance for their budget.

Currently a X6 1075T is comparable to about a i7 930 but costs 1/3 less. Same deal with motherboards. An X58 vs an AMD 870 the AMD is about half price. If I had a small budget AMD gives me more performance for my money.

If in the future AMD processor prices are going to meet Intel prices but offer less performance at all price points like in your example... why would anyone bother? Let alone enthusiasts.

And, before anyone jumps on me, I am in the server busines, so this is me looking in at the enthusiast business, I have no impact on what they do.

Thank you for contributing to the discussion anyways.

[mattkosem]

honestly sometimes I wonder why they didn't bother with a Phenom II x8 MCM.
Thuban is kind of a large die surely making less money off them vs x4 is a bit of waste.

It'd have to be really high binned parts to clock to a reasonable level with a voltage that makes the TDP compatible with AM3...if it's even possible. That or really low speed cores, which wouldn't go over well with the general public for a desktop platform. A pair of Propos cores would probably work reasonably well in a setup like that...if they weren't so slow.

Thuban die is definitely large though, nearly 80% larger than Deneb. Thuban seems to require less current per mm2 though.

--Matt

[gordy]

anyone else notice that AMD's CEO suddenly and unexpectadly resigned today? did Bulldozer get sandy-bridged? seemed like the market was rallying behind AMD what a horrible time to sack the CEO unless there is serious trouble ahead?

[Johnny87au]

anyone else notice that AMD's CEO suddenly and unexpectadly resigned today? did Bulldozer get sandy-bridged? seemed like the market was rallying behind AMD what a horrible time to sack the CEO unless there is serious trouble ahead?

No input atm, Still on the urge to find out.. very shocking news!

[richierich]

informal just posted linkto fud saying that BD should come close to Core i7 parts, but at lower cost. I wonder which Core i7 though, Gulftown or Westmere. Hopefully Westmere. Anyways, since Microcenter just e-mailed me saying that my order for the 2500K is on backorder I'm going to cancel it. I must resist going to the darkside.


Cmon AMD, pull through!

[Origin_Unknown]

Worthwhile to at least send a few interns and get some info from dual-CPU users and who ever else could use it.

I know of one specific man they could go see ... or at least have a phone call with