AMD Ontario APU pictured,die size ~77mm^2

[Florinmocanu]

Certainly. Bobcat isn't living at all to the hype you and others have created. Where is the sub 1w CPU that informal was bragging about ?

Atom has other weakpoints, but it isn't anything more than Intel claimed to be. Intel sucks at GPUs, they are weak, but nowhere did they brag about playing games on Atom. The message constantly revolved around surfing the web and light office stuff. IMO, they delivered that.

OTOH, they are utterly incapable of making inroads into smartphones. And that is a major fail since mids and netbooks will be replaced by smartphones. They are a niche with a limited lifespan. Atom might be way lower power than Bobcat, but even so it is 3-4x higher than ARM chips ( altough it also offers more performance ). Again, same stuff as with Bobcat : it doesn't matter it has more performance if you can't stuck it in the right form factor.



Could be. But they are trying to cut corners with the ill fated Larrabee ( altough they have some projects to use the GMAs as accelerators with OpenCL and others ). Basically, Intel is saying : "screw the GPU as the accelerator. We will morph it in the CPU." Secondly, AMD has yet to prove something with Fusion ( which is what 3 years late ? ). Everything is powerpoint at the moment.
Whether they will manage it or not is another discussion and off-topic to this thread.

I bolded the relevant part.

Savantu, the CPU in Ontario is really low power, but ontario is CPU+Northbridge+GPU. Give me the power consumption of Atom + Northbridge + integrated GPU and then compare the performance of Ontario vs Atom.

Ontario is close to a SOC design, while Atom is the old way. Learn to make a proper comparison.

[BatteryOperated]

Savantu, is he Paul Demone? Because if they are the same person, much would be explained.

[savantu]

I bolded the relevant part.

Savantu, the CPU in Ontario is really low power, but ontario is CPU+Northbridge+GPU. Give me the power consumption of Atom + Northbridge + integrated GPU and then compare the performance of Ontario vs Atom.

800MHz Ontario without GPU is 5w. That is anything but low power.Even the old Atom, the 2008 generation, did 2w at 2GHz under a thermal virus. That is low power. Ontario could very well outperform it 2 or 3x. But it gobbles more power by the same ratio.

T56N - 18W, 1.6 GHz, dual core, GPU, DDR3
T48N - 18W, 1.4 GHz, dual core, GPU, DDR3
T40N - 9W, 1.0 GHz, dual core, GPU, LVDDR3

T52R - 18W, 1.5 GHz, single core, GPU, DDR3
T23R - 9W, 1.2 GHz, single core, GPU, LVDDR3

T48L - 18W, 1.4 GHz, dual core, no GPU, DDR3
T24L - 5W, 800 MHz, single core, no GPU, LVDDR3



ATOM with IMC and GPU :

D525 - 13W , 1.80 GHz, dual core, GPU
D425 - 10W , 1.80 GHz, single core, GPU

N550 - 8.5W, 1.50 GHz, dual core, GPU

N475 - 6.5W, 1.83 GHz, single core, GPU
N450 - 5.5W, 1.66 GHz, single core, GPU

The new Z6xx series isn't shown on Intel's site.
Even so , some comparisons :
High power -
T56N - 18W, 1.6 GHz, dual core, GPU, DDR3
T48N - 18W, 1.4 GHz, dual core, GPU, DDR3
vs.
D525 - 13W , 1.80 GHz, dual core, GPU
N550 - 8.5W, 1.50 GHz, dual core, GPU

Mid -
T52R - 18W, 1.5 GHz, single core, GPU, DDR3
T23R - 9W, 1.2 GHz, single core, GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N475 - 6.5W, 1.83 GHz, single core, GPU

Low-
T24L - 5W, 800 MHz, single core, no GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N450 - 5.5W, 1.66 GHz, single core, GPU

Assuming 2x better performance per clock from Bobcat vs. Atom and better GPU performance, it is still way too high.

Ontario is close to a SOC design, while Atom is the old way. Learn to make a proper comparison.

Before telling others to "learn" you should be sure you aren't telling nonsense yourself.
The current, second generation Atom, is a SoC design with CPU,GPU and NB on the same die. It's spreadsheets aren't on Intel's site ( or at least I couldn't find the Z6xx series ) but Intel claims it can do 1.5GHz in smartphones.
The 32nm generation should be at ARM power levels. Then the battle gets interesting.

Savantu, is he Paul Demone? Because if they are the same person, much would be explained.

No.

[Mechanical Man]

T40N - 9W, 1.0 GHz, dual core, GPU, LVDDR3

ATOM with IMC and GPU :

D525 - 13W , 1.80 GHz, dual core, GPU

Lets take this example of yours and put it in different light. If Bobcat delivers performance expected by BOINC stats( +90% vs atom according to some). Then this 1.0GHz Bobcat will mach 1,9GHz atom in cpu power + has massively better gpu..

[mAJORD]

800MHz Ontario without GPU is 5w. That is anything but low power.Even the old Atom, the 2008 generation, did 2w at 2GHz under a thermal virus. That is low power. Ontario could very well outperform it 2 or 3x. But it gobbles more power by the same ratio.

T56N - 18W, 1.6 GHz, dual core, GPU, DDR3
T48N - 18W, 1.4 GHz, dual core, GPU, DDR3
T40N - 9W, 1.0 GHz, dual core, GPU, LVDDR3

T52R - 18W, 1.5 GHz, single core, GPU, DDR3
T23R - 9W, 1.2 GHz, single core, GPU, LVDDR3

T48L - 18W, 1.4 GHz, dual core, no GPU, DDR3
T24L - 5W, 800 MHz, single core, no GPU, LVDDR3



ATOM with IMC and GPU :

D525 - 13W , 1.80 GHz, dual core, GPU
D425 - 10W , 1.80 GHz, single core, GPU

N550 - 8.5W, 1.50 GHz, dual core, GPU

N475 - 6.5W, 1.83 GHz, single core, GPU
N450 - 5.5W, 1.66 GHz, single core, GPU

The new Z6xx series isn't shown on Intel's site.
Even so , some comparisons :
High power -
T56N - 18W, 1.6 GHz, dual core, GPU, DDR3
T48N - 18W, 1.4 GHz, dual core, GPU, DDR3
vs.
D525 - 13W , 1.80 GHz, dual core, GPU
N550 - 8.5W, 1.50 GHz, dual core, GPU

Mid -
T52R - 18W, 1.5 GHz, single core, GPU, DDR3
T23R - 9W, 1.2 GHz, single core, GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N475 - 6.5W, 1.83 GHz, single core, GPU

Low-
T24L - 5W, 800 MHz, single core, no GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N450 - 5.5W, 1.66 GHz, single core, GPU

Assuming 2x better performance per clock from Bobcat vs. Atom and better GPU performance, it is still way too high.



Before telling others to "learn" you should be sure you aren't telling nonsense yourself.
The current, second generation Atom, is a SoC design with CPU,GPU and NB on the same die. It's spreadsheets aren't on Intel's site ( or at least I couldn't find the Z6xx series ) but Intel claims it can do 1.5GHz in smartphones.
The 32nm generation should be at ARM power levels. Then the battle gets interesting.


No.

How is it still way to high?

All the competing Atom SoCs have virtually the same TDP, with a considerably weaker GPU, and likely still lower CPU performance.

The 18w Models are in a different segment.

You've so far failed to prove the actual cores aren't capable of sub-1w. We simply don't know the Frequency vs Consumption relationship, nor the IPC of the chip yet.

[kl0012]

Lets take this example of yours and put it in different light. If Bobcat delivers performance expected by BOINC stats( +90% vs atom according to some). Then this 1.0GHz Bobcat will mach 1,9GHz atom in cpu power + has massively better gpu..

Bonic does not measure memory & multithreading performance.
But you can get some impression about the perf diff. between Atom D510 and Athlon x2 3250e.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/110?vs=116
As you can see, the average perf. diff. in the real world is much less then 2x.

[savantu]

Lets take this example of yours and put it in different light. If Bobcat delivers performance expected by BOINC stats( +90% vs atom according to some). Then this 1.0GHz Bobcat will mach 1,9GHz atom in cpu power + has massively better gpu..

You're putting all the eggs in the BOINC basket. I do not think they are relevant to infer Bobcat's advantage over Atom across the line.
From the TDP it is likely Atom will have 1.6-2x frequency advantage at the same TDP. OoO brings you advantages, but not that much.

As for GPU being "massively better", if the hype/reality follows the same pattern as the CPU, it's clear.

How is it still way to high?

All the competing Atom SoCs have virtually the same TDP, with a considerably weaker GPU, and likely still lower CPU performance.

One of us doesn't see well, that's clear.

You've so far failed to prove the actual cores are capable of sub-1w. We simply don't know the Frequency vs Consumption relationship, nor the IPC of the chip yet.

Are you talking about Atom ? Or what ?
If it's Atom you should check this : http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id...ec-codes=SLB6Q.

[Calmatory]

Please people, don't argue with financial analysists. You're doomed to be wrong.

Good job savantu.

[mAJORD]

One of us doesn't see well, that's clear.

?
Atom SoC TDP range: 5.5-13w
Ontario SoC TDP range: 5-9w, 18w (Different market segment)

The only Ontario SKU that has what appears to be a high TDP for what it offersis the single core 800Mhz @ 5w.

Clearly this is not a good indication of the core itself's efficency, otherwise a Dual core 1Ghz part with GPU would have a much higher TDP than 9w, wouldn't it. Perhaps the disabled GPU still consumes some power, Perhaps the IMC is a bit more power hungry compared to Intel's, perhaps the TDP is conservative, or perhaps a combination of things, who knows.

At any rate, neither company has an offering below ~5w in this segment

Are you talking about Atom ? Or what ?
If it's Atom you should check this : http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id...ec-codes=SLB6Q.

Should have read 'Aren't, not 'Are' . My applogies, and fixed.

[savantu]

?
Atom SoC TDP range: 5.5-13w
Ontario SoC TDP range: 5-9w, 18w (Different market segment)

The only Ontario SKU that has what appears to be a high TDP for what it offersis the single core 800Mhz @ 5w.

Clearly this is not a good indication of the core itself's efficency, otherwise a Dual core 1Ghz part with GPU would have a much higher TDP than 9w, wouldn't it. Perhaps the disabled GPU still consumes some power, Perhaps the IMC is a bit more power hungry compared to Intel's, perhaps the TDP is conservative, or perhaps a combination of things, who knows.

Ok, I see your logic. Let's look at what we get at the same TDP ( since they are overlapping in the lower half.)

Dual cores
T40N - 9W, 1.0 GHz, dual core, GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N550 - 8.5W, 1.50 GHz, dual core, GPU

Evenly matched performance wise and power wise, GPU favours Ontario

Single cores w/ GPU
T23R - 9W, 1.2 GHz, single core, GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N475 - 6.5W, 1.83 GHz, single core, GPU

Similar performance, 30% lower power for Atom, GPU should favour Ontario

Single cores w/o GPU ( for AMD )
T24L - 5W, 800 MHz, single core, no GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N450 - 5.5W, 1.66 GHz, single core, GPU

Atom should win on performance and it also has a GPU while Ontario does not. Clear win I would say.

At any rate, neither company has an offering below ~5w in this segment

There are Atom designs in the sub 5w segment when you pair it with the US15 NB.
Also, I don't have specs for Lincroft ( Z6xx series for smartphones and MIDs) , this is the 2nd generation+ based on Moorestown with far better thermals than the original Atom, especially at idle.

Should have read 'Aren't, not 'Are' . My applogies, and fixed.

Well, AMD introduces power gating technology with Ontario, so the GPU being not used should be cut off from the power distribution.

From 800MHz and 5w for a single core, it is virtually impossible to get to sub 1w. Why ? In todays designs leakage is 25-35% of active power. So leakage itself is over 1w.
Maybe 3rd gen Bobcat ( 28/20nm ) will be under 1w without changing the uarch. Right now, at least to me, it doesn't look possible.

[iboomalot]

hate to sound stupid but here goes

is 9watts TDP low enough for smart phone useage??

something this small keeping pace with Core 2 is impressive.

[madcho]

9watt is too heavy for smartphone i think.

[savantu]

hate to sound stupid but here goes

is 9watts TDP low enough for smart phone useage??
something this small keeping pace with Core 2 is impressive.

If you want to use your phone as a hands heater and you carry a car battery after you, than yes, it is low enough.

1w is a lot.

Typical smart phones have SoCs ( CPU+GPU ) in the 0.2-0.6w when full load and in the tens of milliwats when idle.
The 620MHz ARM CPU ( it was underclocked to 412MHz ) from the original Iphone burned 0.45mW/MHz, for a grand total of 280mW or 0.28w.

[mAJORD]

Ok, I see your logic. Let's look at what we get at the same TDP ( since they are overlapping in the lower half.)

Dual cores
T40N - 9W, 1.0 GHz, dual core, GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N550 - 8.5W, 1.50 GHz, dual core, GPU

Evenly matched performance wise and power wise, GPU favours Ontario

Single cores w/ GPU
T23R - 9W, 1.2 GHz, single core, GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N475 - 6.5W, 1.83 GHz, single core, GPU

Similar performance, 30% lower power for Atom, GPU should favour Ontario



There are Atom designs in the sub 5w segment when you pair it with the US15 NB.
Also, I don't have specs for Lincroft ( Z6xx series for smartphones and MIDs) , this is the 2nd generation+ based on Moorestown with far better thermals than the original Atom, especially at idle.

Until we see Performance data for the CPU, it's hard to say if the first two examples will be evenly matched, or not, but for now we can run with that assumption.

Single cores w/o GPU ( for AMD )
T24L - 5W, 800 MHz, single core, no GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N450 - 5.5W, 1.66 GHz, single core, GPU

Atom should win on performance and it also has a GPU while Ontario does not. Clear win I would say.

Right, and as I said, is the only SKU in the slide that has a high TDP, but again, does not mean their won't be lower (much lower) TDP CPU's.

According to the slides, the T24L is standard votlage DDR3. Which would be another contributor to the higher TDP

Well, AMD introduces power gating technology with Ontario, so the GPU being not used should be cut off from the power distribution.

From 800MHz and 5w for a single core, it is virtually impossible to get to sub 1w. Why ? In todays designs leakage is 25-35% of active power. So leakage itself is over 1w.
Maybe 3rd gen Bobcat ( 28/20nm ) will be under 1w without changing the uarch. Right now, at least to me, it doesn't look possible.

Again.. the 5w figure you're working off, at the least (if gating indeed eliminates GPU consumption) includes the IMC (with standard voltage DDR3 according to the slide) so you can't calculate leakage power from the TDP.

[Oberon]

Anyone want to bet that Savantu owns Intel stock?

As for all of these comparisons with TDP and performance, Out of order execution = die space and power increases, but also leads to a disproportionate increase in performance for the previously mentioned penalties.

[Dimitriman]

Yep, clearly Ontario is already Epic Fail. It's not sub 1 watt and thats just a disgrace. Performance won't matter because we know its AMD and that is automatic fail, especially anything remotely related to BD arch. (as we know from its proven horribly lower IPC).
If I'm not buying it (because it fails) nobody else will.

[Calmatory]

Anyone want to bet that Savantu owns Intel stock?

As for all of these comparisons with TDP and performance, Out of order execution = die space and power increases, but also leads to a disproportionate increase in performance for the previously mentioned penalties.

He is financial analysist, most probably focused on Intel so yes, it's more than clear that he does. Thats what makes this all so worthless. People aren't arguing just for the sake of the truth, but the sake of money and profession. It gets bloody when money is involved, as seen with the overclocking scene. Same happens here. There was one fanboy who even admited that he had Intel stock which fed his passion.

It's waste of time to argue with someone who refuses to take a neutral stance on the subject. Which is understandable though; Intel's failures don't bring him the bread and the butter, Intel's success does.

[informal]

Yep, clearly Ontario is already Epic Fail. It's not sub 1 watt and thats just a disgrace. Performance won't matter because we know its AMD and that is automatic fail, especially anything remotely related to BD arch. (as we know from its proven horribly lower IPC).
If I'm not buying it (because it fails) nobody else will.

^^ Add on that that llano is c*ap too,being indefinitely slower than SB on CPU side,having GPU that is "obviously" memory BW starved and being delayed a year+ .
This concludes the joke section for today

[LightSpeed]

Dual cores
T40N - 9W, 1.0 GHz, dual core, GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N550 - 8.5W, 1.50 GHz, dual core, GPU

Evenly matched performance wise and power wise, GPU favours Ontario

Single cores w/ GPU
T23R - 9W, 1.2 GHz, single core, GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N475 - 6.5W, 1.83 GHz, single core, GPU

Similar performance, 30% lower power for Atom, GPU should favour Ontario

Single cores w/o GPU ( for AMD )
T24L - 5W, 800 MHz, single core, no GPU, LVDDR3
vs.
N450 - 5.5W, 1.66 GHz, single core, GPU

Atom should win on performance and it also has a GPU while Ontario does not. Clear win I would say.

Why are you predicting Bobcat's performance? How can you be sure that a 1.5Ghz Atom will compare to a 1Ghz Bobcat? My guess is that the Bobcat at 1Ghz will be faster than the 1.5Ghz Atom, so in your Case #1, AMD would have superior performance + superior GPU for the same power. Clear win I would say?

Also, its apparent that the disabled cores and GPU's are sucking power, or they are just worse binned with higher voltages. See the single core Bobcat: 1.5Ghz 18W. Dual core without GPU: 1.4Ghz 18W. Makes no sense when there is a 1.6ghz Bobcat + GPU for 18W.

[MrMojoZ]

Clear win I would say?

Can't win unless Intel makes it, nice try.

[SimBy]

We can't really compare TDP and clocks until we see how Ontario and Zacate perform compared to Atom. It may very well be that 1Ghz Ontario will obliterate 1.5GHz Atom. GPU side of things won't even be a contest.

[Solus Corvus]

It seems fairly obvious that the ontario lineup posted and atom lineup extend into different market segments. They overlap in the middle where high-end Atom and low-end Ontario meet. But mostly it looks like AMD is targeting these first chips to fill the gulf between Atom and CULV that Intel has left open. It should be a nice boost to all those disgustingly slow netbooks and tablets.

If AMD is working on a sub 1W design, it clearly isn't in this lineup. It might not be ready, need a new process, or whatever. But if I was AMD I wouldn't be to eager to enter that sector of the market anyway because ARM is going to eat x86 alive.

[Manicdan]

a few things,
first a bobcat cpu with no gpu does not sound like something we would see in consumer products like netbooks, it has to get a gpu from somewhere else, so why get a single core, power sucking chip, in a devise that runs on a battery. sounds like they have a special purpose that we wouldnt see in conventional forms.

second, a single core with gpu is 9W, a duel core with gpu is also 9W, the difference is a 200mhz drop to add that second cpu. sounds like its pretty low power to me. the fact everything is 5 or 9 or 18 watts makes it really tough to infer any exact power consumption per core.

and last, the comparison between atom and ontario tdp is just laughable. same power, worse gpu, and a slightly higher cpu speed with a much weaker ipc, sounds pretty sexy to me, lol

[Chumbucket843]

Savantu, is he Paul Demone? Because if they are the same person, much would be explained.

no. paul is an experienced engineer who knows his stuff although he is biased.

savantu is an experienced shill who cant help it when he takes things out of context.

[madcho]

We can't really compare TDP and clocks until we see how Ontario and Zacate perform compared to Atom. It may very well be that 1Ghz Ontario will obliterate 1.5GHz Atom. GPU side of things won't even be a contest.

Bobcat is advanced ooo and Atom is an old in order chip.

So i think IPC is much more higher than 50% over Atom, Phenom II is much more faster than 50% clock for clock, so bobcat on bulldozer architecture is gonna be much more faster.

The lowest 800mhz is gonna be faster than evry Atom in evry kind of work.

And the main problem of atom is the chipset, that is very very power hungry, killing all efforts in the low wattage of Atom.

So i think all EEE pc will rocks with ontario.

And the old powerpc in my nas would be incredible better if it was an ontario.

That would be insane 100MB/s