Andre Yang - Lifetime Ban

[WaterFlex]

i`m speechless also 0_0

[stangracin3]

\begin rant
this place is really starting to feel like a different forum that i hate, and its really starting to piss me the OFF.


skinnee , andre, and whoever else was involve got caught redhanded. some of them were man enough to admit to it. they are now serving the conseqeunces. Vapor warned skinnee not to, but skinnee did anyways. anything skinnee did after vapor went to bed is on SKINNEE AND SKINNEE ONLY.

if fugger had really cheated, he would have been disqaulified then and there. some of you idiots appear to be mad because he thought just a little bit god damn harder than you and won.

as for the person who brought up speeding. last time i checked the cops have to trust that you aren't speedinng when they don't see you. and the last time i also checked there is not enough of them to follow every single person at every single moment of the DAMN day.

\end rant

[Rise]

lol @ all of the vapor hate. I haven't seen something blown so far out of proportion since the Sherrod incident! Oh wait, that was actually recent regardless, we're seeing a repeat of it where a lynch mob is forming to burn someone at the stake when no one even knows all of the details.

everyone knows it's easy to say one thing online but when you're in a real situation with someone and watched them get good results all day long (all weekend?) i can imagine the conversation if i was having it with my friends. the kid who made the cheating on an exam analogy said it best in my opinion.

he may be a mod here, but he isn't a mod in real life. people are free to do as they please, and they will. i'm sure skinnee is old enough to make his own decisions and accept the consequences for what he's done.

[Leeghoofd]

\begin rant
this place is really starting to feel like a different forum that i hate, and its really starting .... they don't see you. and the last time i also checked there is not enough of them to follow every single person at every single moment of the DAMN day.

\end rant

You got no idea what it was all about concerning Fugger, so plz don't comment on it or call people idiots. The only idiot is the one that states an opinion without knowing the exact facts...

With live competitions the scores are usually adminned or judged by non overclockers... if the competitions is over there's no pulling back scores... in an online event things can luckily be different...

But that incident was another discussion...

[crazydiamond]

the reason for the vapor hate is because he was going to let skinnee turn in fake scores & not say anything about it. that is OK? to be a mod on the biggest OC site & knowingly let someone cheat in global competitions, because he's your friend?

when they went over the "what ifs" vapors only "what if" should have been "if you cheat the scores i have to report you" had he said that, skinnee obviously would not have turned in the scores so his "what if" must have been closer to "if you cheat the scores you might get caught but if you dont get caught, i wont say anything"

that is wrong attitude and that is a justified reason for the hate IMO, to turn a blind eye to blatent cheating

[Gautam]

Competition is competition. I was directly affected by FUGGER's disable post processing. I'd have come in third in regionals in 08 and won some prizes instead being knocked into 4th and winning nothing. And it's not a hypothetical, even a couple hundred pts less in 06 for Charles would have had me moving up a place. Still I don't mind it at all and you never see me complaining about it, much unlike people never even directly involved. He exploited the rules to his advantage, plain and simple. That's what being a tough competitor is all about. You can't all hold hands and be friends when you're in a competition. Exploiting the rules is not cheating.

[ex2cib]

the reason for the vapor hate is because he was going to let skinnee turn in fake scores & not say anything about it. that is OK? to be a mod on the biggest OC site & knowingly let someone cheat in global competitions, because he's your friend?

when they went over the "what ifs" vapors only "what if" should have been "if you cheat the scores i have to report you" had he said that, skinnee obviously would not have turned in the scores so his "what if" must have been closer to "if you cheat the scores you might get caught but if you dont get caught, i wont say anything"

that is wrong attitude and that is a justified reason for the hate IMO, to turn a blind eye to blatent cheating

that's the thing though, no one except vapor and skinnee know the exact words of that conversation, so, thus, this is a witch hunt.

gautam said it before, its a bad situation to be in. No one is supporting the cheaters.

Personally, if i knew someone was cheating, I wouldn't turn them in for it, but I would make sure I either tried to talk them out of it beforehand, or talk them into turning themselves in afterwards. Anything beyond that, is asking too much.

[Leeghoofd]

If that's is what a tough competitor is about in your eyes, then I feel you would do the same to win then... very sad Gautam...

And to further comment on your post : who's involved here with Hiwa and Andre thrown out ? Big shots like you all should give your fans and folowers a correct example of how things should be run. With this current attitude it's more like : Do as I say, but don't do as I do... really a disgusting attitude lads... keep it up ! go for the money and leave principles and moral behind, it's a competition anyway in your eyes... very moot points there in my opinion... wanna discuss OC Summit prices ? What happened there ? Money, money, money ? Or is there another Gautam way of approaching things ?

[Vapor]

What upsets me is the double standard as I stated in my earlier post. If we are going to condemn one individual for their knowledge and support of a group that they know to be wrong, then why would we accept Vapor doing the same thing. I have nothing against Vapor, but he, by his own post, knew what was going on and chose to turn a blind eye to it. He didn't say that he threatened to report it if they didn't come clean, he stated it was Skinnee's decision and his alone. Being a site mod means he is held to a higher standard, just like we hold the police to a higher standard. We expect their decisions to be fair, honest and beyond reproach. Is that a lot to ask for? Maybe, but that is what is suppose to separate this site from others that we have condemned in the past and while this may seem unfair, it was this sites admins and leaders that decided that a long time ago that this was the standard we would live by. Again, this incident has far more repercussions than just these individuals from how we look at the leader board on HWBOT to how this site is viewed. I am disappointed in the decisions of the parties involved as I had so much respect for all them and now I am questioning that.

I understand everyone's point of view on the matter and I feel its best to step down from staff.

[Gautam]

If that's is what a tough competitor is about in your eyes, then I feel you would do the same to win then... very sad Gautam...

And to further comment on your post : who's involved here with Hiwa and Andre thrown out ? Big shots like you all should give your fans and folowers a correct example of how things should be run. With this current attitude it's more like : Do as I say, but don't do as I do... really a disgusting attitude lads... keep it up ! go for the money and leave principles and moral behind, it's a competition anyway in your eyes... very moot points there in my opinion... wanna discuss OC Summit prices ? What happened there ? Money, money, money ? Or is there another Gautam way of approaching things ?

My way of dealing things is with pure objectivity and my peers on staff can vouch for that as my style of moderating here as well. Cold and unemotional. No room for whining about "ethics" when it's a competition. The rules are absolute. Anything within the framework the rules is fair game, anything outside it is not. Period. If there were a rule saying no editing the registy, or no using mipmap, then it's a cheat. If the rules are ambiguous, it is fair game. The problem with morals and ethics is that everyone has their own take on them. Those are subjective, emotional, and personal. When it comes to rules there is no room for them.

OC summit prices? I have no idea what you're referring to.

[Movieman]

It's a very simple situation.

Technically, no rules were broken: it was not disallowed to go mipmap or disable post-processing.

Ethically, this was quite a big deal because Charles has a high-level position within the overclocking community and is expected to act as an example for all. By using tweaks that are considered by 90% of the overclocking community as illegal only because the rules within the competition don't disallow it, has left a bad taste not only with the participants in that competition, but also the people who heard about it afterwards.

As for the third remark, during the competition no one realized what was going on because everyone was focussed on their own system and the subtest scores were not visible. I bet if participants would've seen the GT2 discripancy, 5 out of 6 teams would've at least said something before the final winner announcements.

It's a field of ethics, so impossible to put a right judgement call here, I guess. Strictly speaking no faul play here ... but I can see from the thread here that some overclockers look past the rules as well.

Thanks for enlightening me.
I do hear what your saying but also saw that Charles had asked that modding registry be prohibited and that was not done?
By that lack of action did he interpret that this was allowed?
Again,I am not up on all the rules so if my questions seem clueless you'll understand.

the reason for the vapor hate is because he was going to let skinnee turn in fake scores & not say anything about it. that is OK? to be a mod on the biggest OC site & knowingly let someone cheat in global competitions, because he's your friend?

when they went over the "what ifs" vapors only "what if" should have been "if you cheat the scores i have to report you" had he said that, skinnee obviously would not have turned in the scores so his "what if" must have been closer to "if you cheat the scores you might get caught but if you dont get caught, i wont say anything"

that is wrong attitude and that is a justified reason for the hate IMO, to turn a blind eye to blatent cheating

I see this differently than you. Vapor told Skinnee his feelings on the matter and then went to bed.
How can he be held accountable in any way for what Skinnee or anyone else did.
If I tell you that I think I'm going to go rob a bank and you tell me you think thats a bad idea and then I do so are you to also be charged with the crime?
I think not.

[BeepBeep2]

Thanks for enlightening me.
I do hear what your saying but also saw that Charles had asked that modding registry be prohibited and that was not done?
By that lack of action did he interpret that this was allowed?
Again,I am not up on all the rules so if my questions seem clueless you'll understand.


I see this differently than you. Vapor told Skinnee his feelings on the matter and then went to bed.
How can he be held accountable in any way for what Skinnee or anyone else did.
If I tell you that I think I'm going to go rob a bank and you tell me you think thats a bad idea and then I do so are you to also be charged with the crime?
I think not.

As far as we know, Vapor said "What if, what if, what if"...and went to bed.

He did not say "do not turn those scores in."

If you go rob a bank and I say "what if you get cought, what if you get arrested, what if you dont get what you want" do you really think it will stop you?

[Monstru]

Exploiting the rules is not cheating.

Was there any written rule in this Lords Of Overclocking competition where benching and giving results to someone else is forbidden?

From what I see, that is not forbbiden. So what Andre and Hiwa did is ok?

Technically - no rule was broken, just like in the other case.
Ethically - this is a big deal, just like in the other case.

Yet the other case was ok, and these guys get crucified...Hmm...

* The aim of the contest is to submit the highest 3DMark06 score in the region.
* Contest is open to all 3DMark06 users with an MSI brand motherboard.
* Contest entries must use commercially available components. Engineering sample hardware is not allowed.
* Contest is divided into three regions - Americas; Europe and Africa and Asia Pacific -region.
* Entries are separated into these regions according to submitting IP address.
* Entry period runs from June 21st (11 am GMT) to July 18th, divided into four weekly periods.
* No limit to number of entries, try as many times to win!
* To enter just submit your 3DMark06 score to Futuremark ORB. Login or register to ORB to submit your contact details to win prizes.
* Entries must be published and validated to be eligible for prizes for top score.
* Entries must use Futuremark approved drivers.
* The grand prize, awarded to the top two contestants across the whole contest period in each region is a trip to Taipei with paid travel and
* hotel for the winner and one friend/teammate to compete in MOA 2010 Grand Final. This prize is personal and non-transferable. If any highest scoring contestant elects not to participate, this award passes to the next eligible contestant.
* Weekly prizes are awarded to the highest scoring contestants in the region during that week.
* Lucky draw prizes are drawn weekly among all contestants who submitted a valid result to the contest.
* Each contestant is only eligible to win one prize (grand prize or weekly).
* If a contestant qualifies for multiple prizes, he will win the Grand Prize or the first weekly prize he qualified for.
* All prizes will pass to the next contestant in score order who is not yet qualified to win any prizes.
* Futuremark and the sponsors reserve the right to reject any entry.

Just to be clear, this is exactly how the LOrds Of Overclocking rulez look in the moment I make this post.

[Manicdan]

Was there any written rule in this Lords Of Overclocking competition where benching and giving results to someone else is forbidden?

From what I see, that is not forbbiden. So what Andre and Hiwa did is ok?

Technically - no rule was broken, just like in the other case.
Ethically - this is a big deal, just like in the other case.

Yet the other case was ok, and these guys get crucified...Hmm...

* To enter just submit your 3DMark06 score to Futuremark ORB. Login or register to ORB to submit your contact details to win prizes.

u mean that?

[M.Beier]

u mean that?

If its purchased, who has the ownership?

[Monstru]

No, I mean specific saying that what they did is not allowed. GOOC also says no cheating what so ever is allowed. What do you understand by cheating?

What does "your" means? Ran by you? Overclocked by you? Result got by you? Purchased by you??? Imagine this - Hey Hiwa, I am Andre, I have a gift for you - I give you this result, it is yours now. Where does it say that is not allowed?

Just to be clear - I do not agree with what they did. I am reffering to Gautam's claim that taking advantage of the rules is ok. From my point of view it is not, in any case.

But if you think it is ok, may it be ok in both cases...

[Movieman]

As far as we know, Vapor said "What if, what if, what if"...and went to bed.

He did not say "do not turn those scores in."

If you go rob a bank and I say "what if you get cought, what if you get arrested, what if you dont get what you want" do you really think it will stop you?

I didn't see Vapor say that at all.
What I did see him say and I'm paraphrasing,is that he gave Skinnee his feelings on the matter and went to bed.
What Skinnnee did either good or bad from there on is on Skinnee and no one else IMHO

[crazydiamond]

I see this differently than you. Vapor told Skinnee his feelings on the matter and then went to bed.
How can he be held accountable in any way for what Skinnee or anyone else did.
If I tell you that I think I'm going to go rob a bank and you tell me you think thats a bad idea and then I do so are you to also be charged with the crime?
I think not.

i guess we see it different. i still see it as a mod on the biggest OC site was going to turn a blind eye to blatant cheating in a global competition. pretty much a slap in the face to the integrity of entire OC community as a whole IMO

anyways i didnt even wanna post in here but got sucked into explaining a point of view ive shared it now, so ill just return to the sidelines

[[XC] gomeler]

If its purchased, who has the ownership?

No, I mean specific saying that what they did is not allowed. GOOC also says no cheating what so ever is allowed. What do you understand by cheating?

What does "your" means? Ran by you? Overclocked by you? Result got by you? Imagine this - Hey Hiwa, I am Andre, I have a gift for you - I give you this result, it is yours now. Where does it say that is not allowed?

Just to be clear - I do not agree with what they did. I am reffering to Gautam's claim that taking advantage of the rules is ok. From my point of view it is not, in any case.

I think you guys are getting caught up on the concept that a result is a digital file. A result is an achievement, the digital file is a recording of that result. If you simply think of screenshots and *.3dr files as evidence that an event occurred then passing around screenshots and *.3dr files is simply passing around evidence that said event occurred. You didn't achieve said event so therefore the record isn't a record of your achievement.

I know many times we have all achieved great scores but weren't able to document them to prove that it happened(stupid coldbug!). This situation is the opposite of that, they have the documents to show a great score but they didn't achieve them.

[K404]

So.... making a small effort to move on.

What comes next? What can we learn?

How can we..... CAN we? Make sure this doesn't happen again? I dont like seeing overclocking tarnished by things like this.

Are more rules the way to go?

[Leeghoofd]

My way of dealing things is with pure objectivity and my peers on staff can vouch for that as my style of moderating here as well. Cold and unemotional. No room for whining about "ethics" when it's a competition. The rules are absolute. Anything within the framework the rules is fair game, anything outside it is not. Period. If there were a rule saying no editing the registy, or no using mipmap, then it's a cheat. If the rules are ambiguous, it is fair game. The problem with morals and ethics is that everyone has their own take on them. Those are subjective, emotional, and personal. When it comes to rules there is no room for them.

OC summit prices? I have no idea what you're referring to.

Google this mate : Les excuses sont faits pour s'en servir
That's what you lot are doing, trying to talk your way out of it. If that's your point of view on things/rules, good for you. I find it astonishing that you even put comments like that black on white...

Unban Andre and co then, as Monstru said : it was never laid down clearly in the rules either...

For the OC summit deal, another nice ethical behaviour of how things are currently run... for them that scammed the others that really deserved the prices... The ones that were involved should be ashamed again... but i don't even think they look back as they are the Big Boys...

You can't overcome GREED by any rule Kenny... that's impossible...

[Manicdan]

if someone thinks you can buy results and claim them as yours, thats blatant cheating

the only limits i see are use a msi mobo, purchasable hardware, and approved drivers
so i guess anything modified to the system is allowed.

[Gautam]

To monstru:

The final validation did indeed show without a doubt that result sharing had taken place in the contest and as the terms and conditions state that all contestants must produce the results themselves

[Movieman]

i guess we see it different. i still see it as a mod on the biggest OC site was going to turn a blind eye to blatant cheating in a global competition. pretty much a slap in the face to the integrity of entire OC community as a whole IMO

anyways i didnt even wanna post in here but got sucked into explaining a point of view ive shared it now, so ill just return to the sidelines

I think where we differ is that you forget that mods are also people and aren't thinking as mods 24/7
What should he have done?
Break Skinnee's hands so he couldn't make a submission?
Remember these two guys are VERY close friends.
Vapor told him his feelings and went to bed.
I can't see what more he could have done.

[Utnorris]

I understand everyone's point of view on the matter and I feel its best to step down from staff.

Vapor, I have no ill feelings toward you, I understand you were in a difficult situation and unfortunately I think you made a bad decision at that time. While I take no pleasure in seeing you step down I think it's the right decision under these circumstances.