Check this homemade WB out

[Martinm210]

. .Martinm210 . :
that's crazy .... or just for heroes

microchannels ..VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-LZAdpPeo





.

This was Naekuh's TEC block in the works...it took forever...twice!...lol!


No pain..no gain..

Serously though, I don't see why you couldn't, especially if you made an arbor that was keyed for these types of saws and oversided in outer diameter to support the blade with the same oversized spacers.



That video looks cool on cnc, but try it by manually milling at much lower RPMs. Cutting one block like an EK supreme will take you all day just to cut the base and that's assuming you don't screw up one of the steps and have to start all over again.

If I had plans to make more than one, I'd sure try it. It's not all that different than running a dado set on your table saw and I've done that plenty. On the mill, I consider some of the larger endmills and facing mills much scarier to run than a slitting saw. While I have had those grab/walk/ruin a work piece, I've never really had much incident with the slitting saws. My biggest problem was getting them to run true on a low cost arbor....in the end I made my own. It worked pretty well other than being extremely slow, although I'd probably do it differently now that I tried it once. I think you want the arbor to be even larger in diameter leaving just enough saw blade to make the necessary cut depth...this would go along way in preventing flex/vibration.

Just makes me wonder what some of the current mass production manufacturers are doing. I'd bet some of them have some sort of gang setup...but they never share the juicy efficiency bits with us garage builders..

There has got to be a better way to cut microchannels. Horizontal mill would be ideal, but what's the next best thing without a horizontal mill or CNC?

[Waterlogged]

JASSAF, I cringed watching that video, speeds and feeds are totally wrong for the tooling and material. . .probably programmed by CAD/CAM.

Martin, There is an attachment for Bridgeport type vertical mills that allows such milling, it's a bit of a pain to set up though from what I remember about the few times I was forced to use it because the real horizontal mill was already booked. For non Bridgeport's, I'm not aware of anything commercially available. Even with a regular horizontal mill it can be tricky to get consistent depth of from all the cutters, with an arbor floating freely on one end it'd be near impossible.

[nateman_doo]

Why not stack some of these up to make one? Use spacers the same size as the blade with. I am curious where you find those saw blades and if you can stack a few of them.

I have an R8 collet.

[Church]

Hmm, how thick is this blade? I wonder how hard it is to get microchannels as thin as those in current top blocks using such design? (like EK HF/CPU-360 ..).
BTW, nateman: if you intend to use microchannels yourself (and imho it's way easier then trying to make thin micropins), you might experiment with depth of microchannels. Increasing it let Supreme HF show way less restriction compared to old Supreme. And that also probably reason why CPU-360 with shallower channels is more restrictive too then HF..
You can also dig arround forum. I recall seeing one DIY block here that had rather close performance to EK HF .. hadn't bookmarked/subscribed that thread though

[nateman_doo]

Found some information on those slitting saws. Also that you can't stack them. Wouldn't it be sweet to stack a few and make one pass. There are probably too many variables when doing something like that.

Also known as metal slitting saws, these cutters are designed for thin slitting and slotting jobs. They are thinner than staggered-tooth milling cutters and don't have side teeth. Slitting cutters are ground concave for free cutting through the workpiece. When choosing a cutter, consider the diameter and the number of teeth. A cutter with a smaller diameter provides better rigidity. To determine how many teeth your cutter should have, follow these guidelines:
• Always have at least three teeth in the cut.
• Use more teeth for thin and hard materials.
• Use fewer teeth for soft materials and larger sections.
Note: Use cutters individually. Do not gang-mount on a single arbor.
General Purpose High-Speed Steel Cutters— Use for cutoff, slitting, and slotting applications. Cutters with a 2 3/4" dia. are also known as screw slotting saws; other diameters are also known as plain metal slitting saws. All have a standard keyway. Cutter diameter tolerance is ±0.015"; thickness tolerance is ±0.001".
Smooth-Finish High-Speed Steel Cutters— Use on very thin materials (wire, tubing, and extrusions) that require light delicate cuts. Also known as jewelers' slotting saws. Cutters do not have a keyway (unless noted). Cutter diameter tolerance is ±0.015"; thickness tolerance is ±0.001".
Solid Carbide Cutters— Last at least five times longer than high-speed steel. Cutters can be used for climb (down) milling versus conventional (up) milling for better tooth engagement and part finish. Cutters do not have a keyway. Cutter diameter tolerance is ±0.015"; thickness tolerance is ±0.00025".

[nateman_doo]

R8 Collet:


standard 1/2"


and the general purpose slitting cutter:


I will pick up the last 2. The R8 collet is more expensive then the 1/2" shank arbor.

[Waterlogged]

Nate, Pick a general purpose saw with a 2¾" or 3" dia and a 1" arbor hole, then use this arbor. I know it's expensive as hell but you'll get much better results than the 2 in those pics.

[NaeKuh]

Its because the copper is a solid so the heat must travel through the mass of copper, when water has the fluid speed advantage. At 1.5GPM, the water is moving a lot faster in those tiny block channels (v=q/a) than copper can move it as a solid.

Think about holding a 1 ft piece of copper pipe in your bare hand and heating one end with a torch. It would still take a good 10 seconds or so for the heat to make its way to your hand before you have to let go. Now think about the speed of water in that pipe...its much faster...now think about the tiny cross sectional area in the block at the nozzle inlet...its even higher...

In essence the waters thermal conductivity is increased by its flow rate.

There is more going on there, but that helps me make sence of it a little.

6th time repeating this statement in the same thread...

guys... theres a reason this statement has been repeated 6 times.

[Manicdan]

6th time repeating this statement in the same thread...

guys... theres a reason this statement has been repeated 6 times.

ok heres a question, if i take a normal waterblock and replace the top with a copper one thats horribly tall and just a solid brick of copper. would that hurt anything? the flow would be identical, the base would be identical, but extra heat would be absorbed by the top. i doubt this would alter the temps, infact i think it would help for a few minutes, but after an hour would be the same as the original.

i think less emphasis needs to be made on how much copper is used, and more about the distance between the heat source and the water's surface area

[Alexandr0s]

ok heres a question, if i take a normal waterblock and replace the top with a copper one thats horribly tall and just a solid brick of copper. would that hurt anything? the flow would be identical, the base would be identical, but extra heat would be absorbed by the top. i doubt this would alter the temps, infact i think it would help for a few minutes, but after an hour would be the same as the original.

i think less emphasis needs to be made on how much copper is used, and more about the distance between the heat source and the water's surface area

Yup, it would help store the heat the first minutes, and then slowly releases it to the water. Like a giant heat capacitor.

[NaeKuh]

ok heres a question, if i take a normal waterblock and replace the top with a copper one thats horribly tall and just a solid brick of copper. would that hurt anything? the flow would be identical, the base would be identical, but extra heat would be absorbed by the top. i doubt this would alter the temps, infact i think it would help for a few minutes, but after an hour would be the same as the original.

i think less emphasis needs to be made on how much copper is used, and more about the distance between the heat source and the water's surface area

7th time repeating this:

Its because the copper is a solid so the heat must travel through the mass of copper, when water has the fluid speed advantage. At 1.5GPM, the water is moving a lot faster in those tiny block channels (v=q/a) than copper can move it as a solid.

Think about holding a 1 ft piece of copper pipe in your bare hand and heating one end with a torch. It would still take a good 10 seconds or so for the heat to make its way to your hand before you have to let go. Now think about the speed of water in that pipe...its much faster...now think about the tiny cross sectional area in the block at the nozzle inlet...its even higher...

As martin and i have said 7 times again.
Your difference in mediums is gonna hurt you up the butt.

Can it work? sure it can... but as i said your doing a fine balance eq of the water side in pickup vs air side at pickup on cpu block and release.

Water has such a high specific heat, that's why you dont need a thick honking piece of copper.

You in short DONT want a temp gradient forming inside the copper piece or flow of water itself.
Which would happen in tall pin setups.. and big mass plates.

Also for air water disapation, which you are looking at, not collection, your igonring the fundamental of radiators which this states:



His base is not like flat tube of a radiator.
Its like a circle round tube, or a box tube... he lost a ton of efficiency just by having that red circle inside his box flow.

When blocks did have something close to that.. a big middle tank which had a temp gradiant, how did we fix that?
We introduced Turbulence... to get rid of the red spot.. but i dont think just throwing in a copper top would add turbulance.
All the tweeks vapor is doing to the blocks, are actual Base warps... where he is intentionally overbowing the base.


We went though all these paths for the current blocks you are seeing today.
We went from a flat base.. to pin matrix, to dips and injectors, then back to pins and injectors, and now uniform flat bases with uniform flow.

[nateman_doo]

Nate, Pick a general purpose saw with a 2¾" or 3" dia and a 1" arbor hole, then use this arbor. I know it's expensive as hell but you'll get much better results than the 2 in those pics.

Ouch. for $180 that thing is crazy. I totally understand in buying good quality tools, But I have to get my feet wet with the other one. (plus I already ordered the 1/2 arbor already this morning)

[Manicdan]

@NaeKuh, you didnt answer my question. you gave lots of info about physics but your not separating the statement "that's why you dont need a thick honking piece of copper" with which part. can you simply say that an efficient base is needed?

[Waterlogged]

Ouch. for $180 that thing is crazy. I totally understand in buying good quality tools, But I have to get my feet wet with the other one. (plus I already ordered the 1/2 arbor already this morning)

Those other ones tend to "hump"* the work piece after a while. I have one of those goods ones in my personal collection at home. I don't slot much but when I do, I know I'll always get a good cut from it.


* this means only part of the saw is doing the cutting as it running out of round.

[nateman_doo]

So did I waste my money, or will it at least function enough to get a prototype out?

[Waterlogged]

It's hard to say really, I've had several arbors that were fine for a few weeks, I've also had a handful that have humped right out of the box. It's not the end of the world in your case as it's not high production. When it does start humping, all you have to do is rotate the cutter on the arbor every few cuts to keep an even wear pattern going on all the teeth. I just prefer to not mess with it at all.

[JASSAF]

nateman_doo:

if it works or not a heatsink on a waterblock?..... That is the question
how to do it fast and affordable : buy this block (http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/hecu30ba.html)
designed a new cover and makes the performance test.


my tools:

[NaeKuh]

So did I waste my money, or will it at least function enough to get a prototype out?

nate... take your original block.

Flatten the fins out and try to get the top base thinner as possible.
Then create another base which u can add a fin section on to clamp a tec in the middle.

Base - Top - Tec - Topfin

In telling you... try it with a 90W TEC in the middle.
Cool the hotside with a fan, the cool side will constantly pull heat from the hotside.

You would get interesting results... i can vouch for it.

[TJ TRICHEESE]

nate... take your original block.

Flatten the fins out and try to get the top base thinner as possible.
Then create another base which u can add a fin section on to clamp a tec in the middle.

Base - Top - Tec - Topfin

In telling you... try it with a 90W TEC in the middle.
Cool the hotside with a fan, the cool side will constantly pull heat from the hotside.

You would get interesting results... i can vouch for it.

great idea, I find TEC's incredibly interesting

[Manicdan]

how to do it fast and affordable : buy this block (http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/hecu30ba.html)
designed a new cover and makes the performance test.

wow thats a great idea, i almost want to buy one and get something like a zalman 9900 and find a way to get the base off to expose the heatpipes and make my own design. i so wish i had more time and better tools to mod.

[nateman_doo]

nateman_doo:

if it works or not a heatsink on a waterblock?..... That is the question
how to do it fast and affordable : buy this block (http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/hecu30ba.html)
designed a new cover and makes the performance test.


my tools:

Nice setup you got going on there. You know, thats not a bad idea going with the HK plate.

[Martinm210]

R8 Collet:


standard 1/2"


and the general purpose slitting cutter:


I will pick up the last 2. The R8 collet is more expensive then the 1/2" shank arbor.

Fyi, just don't buy one of the cheap ebay arbor. I did and it did do a very good job holding the slitting saw true. My 1/16th saw wobbled enough to cut a 1/8th inch slot. That's why I made the brass one from some 1" stock I had handy.

It probably depends on the saw arbor hole, bigger 1" sizes as waterlogged noted should be better. I thinl my teeth on my saws were too coarse also and my rpm rate too low. I used WD40 in a spray bottle for coolant while cutting.

Keep us posted on the fabrication...always interested to see more of the work while its in progress..thanks!
Martin

[nateman_doo]

well, I will know if its worth damn by tomorrow. Nice thing about buying from McMaster is that its in my mail box the next day. I bought a crapload of 1/16" mills also, though I dread milling that many without a CNC to hit the "go" button & walk away.

[nikhsub1]

ok heres a question, if i take a normal waterblock and replace the top with a copper one thats horribly tall and just a solid brick of copper. would that hurt anything?

Yes it would end up hurting performance. Why? Because as the post I quoted below says, the 'horribly tall solid brick of copper top' would pick up heat from inside the case then end up transferring that heat INTO the water having the exact opposite effect that you would want. Naekuh is right about one thing, we seem to be repeating ourselves over and over. I already explained that the top to any WB has ZERO effect on cooling in regards to size and material...

Yup, it would help store the heat the first minutes, and then slowly releases it to the water. Like a giant heat capacitor.

[iandh]

There are no hard and fast rules for machining... you can do whatever you like as long as it works.

A lot of what makes a good machinist is creativity in tooling and fixtures. This could include "going against the rules" and gang mounting slitting saws... what they mention is stacking saws to achieve a thickness. This is a no-no becuase the blades will be forced apart by the pressure of the chips and end up causing all sorts of trouble. If you were to gang mount .014 saws with .014 shims though, you wouldn't have any problem at all as long as you took multiple passes.

Another reason they recommend against it is that most slitting saw arbors aren't set up properly for gang mounting... but if you make your own arbor, then things change.