The GT300/Fermi Thread - Part 2!

[jaredpace]

Yeah, he's biased towards Nvidia. Who cares. Enough people hate or bash on them (like me) to even things out in the end.

[Motiv]

Tessellation is one the few and most important new futures introduced by DX11. There is so much new here and it needs an open mind to investigate and understand it without getting offensive toward others ideas ans meanings.

Apparently, nVidia is using a different implementation of tessellation and it can affects both the picture details/quality and the performance. It is important to know the real differences based on a contractive discussion .

Very true, I expect the G4xx products based on fermie to be monsters at tessellation, physics and any other math intensive part of the DX world. The GPU has been built from the ground up to be incredible at these things.

What it look like it may fall down on, is the standard DX9/10/11 feature set and thus need 'gimmicks' to get people to choose it, in the absence of many DX11 games.

Will be interesting to see ATIs response to the tessellation question in their refresh this year. With more games exploiting DX11, they may need to improve it before next year.

[LinkinParkBoy]

Even i (who am a non-fan nVidia supporter for long although i always keep an ATI card) am starting to doubt the capacity of the 480 versus ATI right now. If it weren't for ATI's real bad CCC i would have probably purchased a 5970 by now. Meh, hurry up with the numbers already, it's becoming boring.

[RaZz!]

Nvidia real demo run vs Nvidia PR slide (Hint. Check 60-120 sec):
*snip*

there's nothing wrong with the PR slide tbh. they clearly state on the slide that it's the "dragon, cobblestone road sequence", which is the sequence from 60-120secs on the demo graph. they picked a tessellation heavy sequence to show fermi's advantage in such scenarios. fair enough.

Very true, I expect the G4xx products based on fermie to be monsters at tessellation, physics and any other math intensive part of the DX world. The GPU has been built from the ground up to be incredible at these things.

What it look like it may fall down on, is the standard DX9/10/11 feature set and thus need 'gimmicks' to get people to choose it, in the absence of many DX11 games.

Will be interesting to see ATIs response to the tessellation question in their refresh this year. With more games exploiting DX11, they may need to improve it before next year.

true, however, even if fermi lacks some raw performance in standard dx9/10/11, future games will all make use of tessellation, where fermi can compensate the lack of raw performance with more tessellation performance (atleast that's what one would expect if the performance rumors are true).

i really hope the gtx480 provides more performance than just a 5% increase over a 5870 though. a 5% increase could easily be surpassed by a high clocked 5890 or smth. all i want is the prices to go down

[saaya]

GTX470:

Vantage P16600
crysis,1920X1200 veryhigh+8x aa,24fps
crysis,1920X1200 veryhigh+No aa,53fps
Rumor from Chinese forum~
http://mylab.q.yesky.com/thread-121-1-1.html

lol, bad job at bluring the numbers, its obviously 625mhz core and 1250mhz shader clocks

have you guys seen this?
heise.de reported that perf of a 470 is between a 5850 and a 5870, closer to a 5870, but slower. and they mentioned 470 specs to be 448cores?
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/03/...ugh-thrashing/

oh and they messured the ihs to be 41mmx41mm...
and tweakers.net reported the initial run to be 5k cards only?
but is that 480s, or 470s or both?
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/03/...cret-location/

Anyone else notice the 8pin+8pin+6pin possibility on the GTX480 PCB?

no, where? you mean on the left of the power connectors? those holes are too small for a power connector, arent they?

EDIT: Why do both 470 and 480 require the big fan holes in PCB?

because nvidia hired some weird pcb/card layoutengineer a while back who thinks putting holes in cards is cool, literally
remember the dual gpu cards? they kept putting holes in them, even when people put tape over the holes and found out that they actually dont impact the temperatures at all they continued to do this

Rumor from Chinese forum:
http://we.pcinlife.com/thread-1366899-1-1.html


The Chinese name card is most likely GTX470,but I'm not sure.

so it sucks less than a 5870 at 1920x1080 with max details and 8aa... but is still unplayable... lol
seems like the 470 has only 448 cores and seems to have notably lower gddr5 clocks as well, making it fall behind the 295 by quite a bit...

i heard that nvidia had problems getting gddr5 clocks up, but that was quite a while ago and i thought they had solved that by now...

470's retail price is little cheaper than 5850,what do you think?

huh? how much do you claim it will cost then? cause so far the rumors were around 450us$ for the 470...

OMG, your sig made me laugh so hard that a bit of wee came out

eew! :S

http://www.abload.de/img/nv-tesselation-benchma0m5f.jpg
new picture?!

2x faster between seconds xx and seconds xy, LOL
so what, do they expect reviews to create a custom unigine bench based on the part of the benchmark where gf100 does better than rv870?
thats just sad... if nvidia goes that far to somehow make gf100 look good, then wow... it sounds like it really sucks as bad as charlie wrote :/

http://kotaku.com/5484795/just-cause...oves-on-nvidia

If it something be advertised for NVIDIA and anything related to them. I.e Cuda and physX, fermi it should die. This would normally sound sarcastic but this is AMDz.....I mean xtremesystems.

The purpose of this thread was to contain the trolling around the forums and to reduce the amount of Fermi threads. But now all the fermi trolling is concentrated to make the so called "trolling party" and in addition, there seems to be anything related to AMD at all, to be posted in the news section. From every single 5970 being released(5970 black edition, 5970 sapphire edition, 5970 ares edition, 5970 haxxors edition) to AMD contests(MSI 58xx total prize value for three prizes 800 dollars), to someone posting something related to a currency which just happened to be AMD abbreviated, interviews with AMD people(catalyst maker x2), blogs, drivers and etc.

It just feels like an AMD forum, which normally isn't bad. But this forum already has an AMD section and most of this stuff could go in there or tech talk or extreme competition(which is also for contests). I started feeling sorry for Nvidia a long time ago with all the trolling against them. Sure they rename alot but they are not doing some terribly underhanded like what Intel did against AMD.

Anything like a negative rumor against NV seems to be posted instantly and its hard to not feel sorry for them. E.g things like charlie articles and somehow even positive like their recent financial results have even been trolled or them giving away a game.

NV could cure cancer and it would somehow be trolled.

maaaaybe, just maybe its because there havent really been any news about nvidia and their products? just mention a couple of good news that you think should have been posted in the news section on xs but nobody did?
and the news here are posted by anybody who wants to share some interesting knews he found somewhere... so what keeps you from posting news that you think havent been posted here yet and are interesting?

Oh, then it must certainly be an irrelevant POS if it slipped under your radar.

i heard it was a fun game, but it really wasnt very popular... so chill out, lots of people dont know about it, that has nothing to do with the quality of the game at all... barely anybody knows about fear2 and it slipped under most peoples radars, mine included, but its an awesome game... why are you always so defensive when people mention something bad about some game?

Yep, if there are open alternatives. Which there aren't. There are millions of CUDA capable card owners out there who will benefit from these additions who won't care much that it's proprietary.

opencl and compute shaders are not an alternative to cuda? why?

- Partners still don't have final design yet. They only know the dimensions and cooling design currently.

BTW, "launch" date is still March 26th (3 weeks), I hope.

hmmmm am i the only one who finds this a bit contradicting?
partners dont even have final cards yet, launch date is in 3 weeks... 0_o

whats with the pictuires with white outs and black outs that makes no sense whatsoever. remeber leaked HD5 series pics? were any of them whited out?? nope why the secrecy? maybe because this isnt what it will actually be? i just dont get it

leaks of 5k stuff was mostly ati approved or tolerated, nvidia is veeery serious about leaks, so people and companies are more careful, naturally...

Just to clear things up about CUDA + Just Cause 2.

OpenCL and DX Compure Shaders are accelerated THROUGH the CUDA architecture standards. As such, the effects in Just Cause 2 will likely be accelerated on AMD hardware through their Stream architecture as well if they use OpenCL or Compute Shaders.

Everyone has to remember that CUDA is an all-encompassing term for the architecture that accelerates all types of APIs on NVIDIA GPUs (OpenCL, PhysX, folding, Compute Shaders, ray tracing, Adobe Photoshop GPU acceleration, Flash acceleration, etc., etc.). It is WAS proprietary but is now acting as a type of umbrella term for everything GPU accelerated. Much like Stream on AMD products.

cheers, thanks for the headsup!

uhmm that all you get folks until further console upgrade of course sorry 2900xt had awesome shader power also nearly was 2 3 times better than 8800gtx but no games used it so that made 2900xt be marked as flop same thing is gonna happen to gtx 480 imho

lol wutt? so by now, where games use more shader power the 2900xt should be 2-3 times as fast as a 8800gtx?

Say Nvidia prices the cards $200 lower than necessary to break even with production costs. What does it cost them at this stage (if the 5000 cards rumor is correct of course)? 1 million dollars. That's a lolzor amount for Nvidia.

true... but whats the point of this pr stunt if you cant meet demands... even if people love your product, if they cant buy it, they will forget about it...

Hah, nVidia using Heaven 1.1 (30% more performance in culling, aka Dragon parts of the benchmarks) while ATI uses Heaven 1.0!

It's like Nehalem and Cinebench R10 "R11" dll swap all over again!

so 1.1 will boost rv870 performance as well? are you sure?

Somehow, SKYMTL has turned into an NVIDIA's ambassador in this forum. Weird.

i dont think so, he sounds very obective to me

I heard nVIDIA gave him 20k$.

20k$ worth in fermis? ie one card? heheheh

i think power consumption doesnt really matter, and performance doesnt matter all that much either... price performance is what matters now that we have mainstream cards that are powerful enough to build a highend gaming pc...

[Teemax]

Some headups from Fudzilla, writen by Fuad himself:
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17952/1/

If you have been waiting for Fermi, Geforce GTX 480 and GTX 470 and you really want to spend some 600€ / $600 for a high end graphics card, you better be ready to buy it on March 26th.

Despite the fact that Nvidia will have a massive volume launch with thousands of cards available in Europe and USA, they might easily sell out in matter of hours.

People close to Nvidia believe Fermi cards will sell like hot cakes and that there will be huge demand for them as soon as they launch. The reason is quite obvious a single GPU Geforce GTX 480 will end up faster than any Radeon HD 5870 card and in some new games, the advantage will be significant. In some games Radeon might end up faster or very close, but in the big picture Nvidia’s big chip is going to win.

Just be ready to order your card on the first day as they might sell out easily, or be ready to wait a week or two for a second batch.

So, it's launching with a "massive" some-thousand cards.
It's gonna be expensive (€600 for GTX 480!!)
It's faster than HD 5870, sort of.

[iTravis]

This might be old but

[eric66]

some new games = Dark Void

[eric66]

This might be old but

haha can be true though

[BenchZowner]

Absolutely... 28nm high end GPUs are right around the corner anyway

[mindfury]

Obviously someone broke NDA...

[zerazax]

Someones pissed off.. lol

[Jowy Atreides]

This might be old but

I have been told.

Any news on a 5 series refresh or 5890?
The cards have been out like 6 months, time for a spin with the 5 series.

[mindfury]

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=148597

[zalbard]

^^ Talking about Radeons being terrible at tessellation.
Looks good for 470 as well! It will be pretty attractive if priced well.

[eric66]

so those chinese results are true 470 sucks in games against 5870 if 2 fps is destroying 5870 :P by the way every blind person can see it is 470 somebody needs better paint skills lol

[blindbox]

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=148597
Big unigine pics snip

That's a GTX470, for sure. Now to figure out which 5800 series. Anyone with identical setup?


I sense 4870 vs gtx 260 all over again.

[mindfury]

That's a GTX470, for sure. Now to figure out which 5800 series. Anyone with identical setup?


I sense 4870 vs gtx 260 all over again.

It's a 5870.

[eric66]

That's a GTX470, for sure. Now to figure out which 5800 series. Anyone with identical setup?


I sense 4870 vs gtx 260 all over again.

check my post above in rael games including dx 11 game dirt 2 470 is behind unless games starts to push memory capacity where 5800 series with 1gb will suck for sure but until that moment 5870 is nearly 15 percent faster than 470 in real games that were benched

[blindbox]

so those chinese results are true 470 sucks in games against 5870 if 2 fps is destroying 5870 :P by the way every blind person can see it is 470 somebody needs better paint skills lol

Argh, I was expecting price drops

Yeah, I didn't notice your post when I posted.

[SimBy]

so those chinese results are true 470 sucks in games against 5870 if 2 fps is destroying 5870 :P by the way every blind person can see it is 470 somebody needs better paint skills lol

Suck is too harsh But is it unimpressive after 6 month delay? Damn right :P

I think it's obvious that the only place where GTX4xx will shine are synthetic pure tessellation benchmarks.

Not a very balanced architecture.

[saaya]

Obviously someone broke NDA...

hahah
damn... those benchmarks look real :S
470 barely beating the 5870 by 8% in unigine, which is a best case scenario as we all know... wow... thats really dissapointing...

so its true then, 470 is slower than the 5870 on average...
and the 480 cant be that much faster than the 5870... even if the 470 is 448cores and the 480 is 512cores plus one extra 64bit gddr5 channel, then the 480 will only be 20% faster than the 470 at best... which means the 480 is 10-15% faster than 5870 at best... bleh :/

[SKYMTL]

Quite a strong statement considering the fact that the very top offer from Nvidia isn't even 2 times faster than a cheaper 5870 (not to mention 5970 which is on par with (or better than) GTX480 in Haven and a much slower GTX470) in the over-the-top tessellation environment of Haven, not to mention some people speculating about GTX480 scoring much closer to 5870 with high IQ settings...
You are not being totally rational here.

We will see when benchmarks are released with tessellation enabled in AvP, Heaven and some other games. I am not even talking about the performance in relation to NVIDIA cards here since the GF100's performance in DX11 is nothing but rumors and vague benchmarks at this point.

With tessellation enabled we have seen massive decreases in performance in the two apps mentioned above. Actually, PCGamesHardware did a good AvP comparison on a HD 5870. Their results are VERY easily repeatable so I suggest you check it out.

It is just a matter of fact that ATI's current hardware isn't designed around DX11's needs. Rather it is a DX9 / DX10 architecture with DX11 functionality added on. This isn't a bad thing per se since the number of DX11 games out there is minimal at best. I am sure when DX11 becomes mainstream, ATI will have an architecture that properly support all of its advanced rendering paths but until then, I will maintain that the HD 5000 series' DX11 performance isn't that great at all.

[SimBy]

Why did Igor Stanek lose his nerves?!

[SKYMTL]

However, SKYMTL's tone sounds a bit odd for an supposedly neutral reviewer. Claiming that Evergreen has "castrated tessellation performance" is a HUGE claim, he should at least back it up with some evidence.

It is a huge claim but see my statement above. Once again, everyone seems to be jumping down on the statement without looking at numbers that actually back it up. Look at DiRT, AvP, Heaven and BF: BC.

What ATI did is a good thing: they concentrated on making a DX11 compatible GPU by adapting an older architecture instead of taking a ton of time designing a newer one. They knew there was no point in concentrating too hard on DX11 so early into its life cycle and they were able to actually beat NVIDIA to market while offering a perfectly suitable solution.

So, yes the HD 5000 series takes a massive hit in DX11 but it was never meant to be their end-all DX11 product anyways. That name goes to their upcoming architecture that will be released when there is a good amount of games that support DX11.