The GT300/Fermi Thread - Part 2!

**zalbard** · 02-21-2010, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by xVeinx

My GTX 260 55nm idles at around 50C. Even with a new node, 3 billion transistors are going to produce heat. There are plenty of factors that play into how that heat is dissipated, resulting in the perceived temperature at any one point; even if true, it's not the end of the world. Assuming these figures will be true of released units, then the only real impact this will have is on overclockability (and perhaps lifespan, if the proper precautions haven't been taken).

It'd just mean that Nvidia is lazy. It could've been okay 2 years ago, but downclocking in idle right now is a must IMO.
Sure, 3B transistors is a lot. But do you need 3B transistors running at (let's say) 650MHz to draw windows icons? 200-300MHz core clock (2-3x lower power consumption) and lower voltage (can easily get rid of 20%+ more power), and perhaps actually shutting off some parts of the chip (like Intel does with i7 chips) could get the job done marvellously.
It's not the end of the world, but idling at 70C would be a terribly lazy design, and I simply don't believe in that, especially for a super expensive high end card that took ages to develop.

**570091D** · 02-21-2010, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Chumbucket843

i think it is safe to assume that idle power is better than gt200 and the cooler is better too. the temperature of the card should not be 70C at idle. especially if you consider this article.
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17723/1/

there have been a lot of corroborating articles stating as much, from different reporters and different sources. the whole idea of 70c idle (@ 70% fan speed) on a single gpu card is silly, if any of charlies "facts" should tip you off that he's a shill, this is it.

saaya, if i were to ever meet charlie, it would be a bad day for him. only because here in the states every story we hear or read contains some amount of spin (political, social, whatever) and i'm getting really tired of it. so to me, his "journalism" is on par with sean hannity. if he had any amount of integrity, he would have waited until his sources were telling him the same things and simply reported that.

EDIT

Originally Posted by zalbard

It'd just mean that Nvidia is lazy. It could've been okay 2 years ago, but downclocking in idle right now is a must IMO.
Sure, 3B transistors is a lot. But do you need 3B transistors running at (let's say) 650MHz to draw windows icons? 200-300MHz core clock (2-3x lower power consumption) and lower voltage (can easily get rid of 20%+ more power), and perhaps actually shutting off some parts of the chip (like Intel does with i7 chips) could get the job done marvellously.
It's not the end of the world, but idling at 70C would be a terribly lazy design, and I simply don't believe in that, especially for a super expensive high end card that took ages to develop.

well, if you look at what nvidia has done with the gt215 (idle @ 15 watts), i'd say that power consumption is on their mind. hell, i'm willing to bet that all of the power saving features you just mentioned are on the chip. if the idle vs fan speed numbers in the article have any basis in reality, they would probably have come from A2 silicon with some really early drivers...

**saaya** · 02-21-2010, 10:11 AM

not lazy, i took those high idle temps and fanspeeds as a hint that dynamic power management is either broken or doesnt work correctly yet.
r600 had a very similar issue, its power management was broken which is why it was so hot even in idle... ati never managed to fix it in r600, but rv6xx had it fixed...

**zalbard** · 02-21-2010, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by saaya

not lazy, i took those high idle temps and fanspeeds as a hint that dynamic power management is either broken or doesnt work correctly yet.
r600 had a very similar issue, its power management was broken which is why it was so hot even in idle... ati never managed to fix it in r600, but rv6xx had it fixed...

Not lazy? What's that then? Oops situation?

"Whoops, my card is idling at temps 40C higher than it should! Ah well, who cares, time to sell and make some $$$!"

Who cares why it doesn't work? It's the fact that it doesn't that matters.
In any case, Charlie is a big troll and I don't suppose he's totally correct.

**xdan** · 02-21-2010, 10:50 AM

To much crapp and wrong assumptions on this thread...

Here is what i'm saying and it's 90% shure.
GTX 480 will launch in 26-28 march 2010 and it would be 40-50% faster than 5870. Price between 5870 and 5970, probably 500$ .

So cut it out with broken and unfixable....

**Luka_Aveiro** · 02-21-2010, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by xdan

Here is what i'm saying and it's 90% shure
...
So cut it out with broken and unfixable....

People here are just exploring the remaining 10% of your uncertainty.

**kemo** · 02-21-2010, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by xdan

To much crapp and wrong assumptions on this thread...

Here is what i'm saying and it's 90% shure.
GTX 480 will launch in 26-28 march 2010 and it would be 40-50% faster than 5870. Price between 5870 and 5970, probably 500$ .

So cut it out with broken and unfixable....

But But But But But But , Charlie said 5%

**jfromeo** · 02-21-2010, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Luka_Aveiro

People here are just exploring the remaining 10% of your uncertainty.

I lol'd hard

**xdan** · 02-21-2010, 10:58 AM

People here are just exploring the remaining 10% of your uncertainty.

Rest of 10% means that GTX 480 will be 50-60% better than 5870 and the price will be 550-570$. Say i have my sources.

**FischOderAal** · 02-21-2010, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by xdan

To much crapp and wrong assumptions on this thread...

Here is what i'm saying and it's 90% shure.
GTX 480 will launch in 26-28 march 2010 and it would be 40-50% faster than 5870. Price between 5870 and 5970, probably 500$ .

So cut it out with broken and unfixable....

We will see. Someone should gather all these claims in order to call BS on 'em afterwards.

Some have already fallen on their noses with their claims (Fermi in november anyone?).

**xdan** · 02-21-2010, 11:09 AM

Will see , yah in one month and a little...Anyway 5970 seems to be more a phantom card....http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...on%20HD%205970 It think that GTX 295 had more avalaibility than this..

**annihilat0r** · 02-21-2010, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by xdan

To much crapp and wrong assumptions on this thread...

Here is what i'm saying and it's 90% shure.
GTX 480 will launch in 26-28 march 2010 and it would be 40-50% faster than 5870. Price between 5870 and 5970, probably 500$ .

So cut it out with broken and unfixable....

Would love it to be that way. Sorry but that's not right.

**weston** · 02-21-2010, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by 570091D

actually, the gtx285 was easily able to compete with the 48x0 series... they were still selling well after the debut of the 5870 (for what little time they were both on sale at the same time). and as for charlie, someone said it here before "even a dead clock is right twice a day".

cheapest GTX 285 = $379
Cheapest 5850 = $289
Not sure why anyone would buy a GTX 285 at this point, the 5850 is $90 cheaper, has more features, and is faster in games. no GTX 295 for sale anymore, so anyone looking for a high end video card has only ATI. GTX 260 is still $200+ when the 5770 is the same speed and $160. There's really no price point where nVidia has an advantage in speed.

Charlie is exaggerating about the yields and about it being unfixable, but core clock of 600-625 is what his sources were disagreeing on, nothing major. The idle temps will probably be fine with drivers that lower power in 2D. Let's face it, fermi would be out by now if there weren't problems. Are they major problems? Yes. Are they fixable? yes.

Originally Posted by xdan

Rest of 10% means that GTX 480 will be 50-60% better than 5870 and the price will be 550-570$. Say i have my sources.

Man, I'm 80% sure that fermi will be 15% faster than 5870, so where does that leave us? That's not even one of the options in your certainty! You must be at least 80% wrong.

Originally Posted by xdan

Will see , yah in one month and a little...Anyway 5970 seems to be more a phantom card....http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...on%20HD%205970 It think that GTX 295 had more avalaibility than this..

no more a phantom card than the GTX480.

**Arxagelos** · 02-21-2010, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by weston

cheapest GTX 285 = $379
Cheapest 5850 = $289
Not sure why anyone would buy a GTX 285 at this point, the 5850 is $90 cheaper, has more features, and is faster in games. no GTX 295 for sale anymore, so anyone looking for a high end video card has only ATI. GTX 260 is still $200+ when the 5770 is the same speed and $160. There's really no price point where nVidia has an advantage in speed.

He will buy the 285 to ensure he won't have GSOB's and cataclysm!!

**eric66** · 02-21-2010, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by xdan

Rest of 10% means that GTX 480 will be 50-60% better than 5870 and the price will be 550-570$. Say i have my sources.

man everybody have sources this days

i wonder if Jens is someones source cause it seems that every employee at nvidia is sharing info with some random forum member

**BenchZowner** · 02-21-2010, 11:40 AM

This is getting entertaining.
Some are so convinced of Fermi's failure that are in decline of every positive thing.
Calling BS easily and co.

I wonder what's going to happen if Fermi gets released and really gets close to the 5970 and beat the s*it out of the 5870.
I'm not saying it's going to happen, but if it does, I'd love to see some people eat their words

**eric66** · 02-21-2010, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by zalbard

I dunno who came up with 70C idle temps anyway. This is just such a ridiculous BS rumour it's not even funny.
I can see Fermi not being much faster than Cypress, but idling at 70C? LOL. What's next? 3 slot cooler? Nuclear reactor to power it? 40cm length?

my ultra idles at 66 degrees lol

**zalbard** · 02-21-2010, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by eric66

my ultra idles at 66 degrees lol

66C here for 5870 loaded with MW@H, 35% stock fan. You need a new card.

My 8800Ultra used to idle at 45C, but it was water cooled... What was before that? I don't remember tbh, I recall it nearly hitting 90C under load!

**cegras** · 02-21-2010, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by zalbard

My 5870 idles at around 30C while being completely inaudible. Power saving features FTW (downclocking to 300MHz, 0.9V vCore, 21% fan speed). What's your point? lol.
4850 just isn't the best card in terms of PowerPlay management. The heatsink isn't the best one around either.
There is no excuse for a card to idle at such high temps.

Like I said, educate yourself on the difference between heat and temperature.

**zalbard** · 02-21-2010, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by cegras

Like I said, educate yourself on the difference between heat and temperature.

I know what the difference is.
Who gives a damn how much heat it actually produces if it's idling at 70C? It could be 10W, fine, then the heatsink sucks. Means the card sucks.
Or it could be producing 100W of heat in idle (70C still), then the power saving tech sucks. The cooler might not be so terrible. But who cares? The card still sucks.
And I am talking about the cards that are being released in 2010 fyi. The older stuff is irrelevant.

Edit: I do not mean to appear harsh. But there are just so many ways to make a gfx card run cool and quiet that it's not funny. We've seen very cool running cards come out recently (5xxx series). I see no reason why Nvidia cannot do the same.

**xdan** · 02-21-2010, 11:55 AM

Man, I'm 80% sure that fermi will be 15% faster than 5870, so where does that leave us? That's not even one of the options in your certainty! You must be at least 80% wrong.

Just take it logically...
GTX 295 had 480SP(240*2) frecuencys 576/2000/1242(core/memory/shader) with some weaker bus 448 bytes DDR3. And it is better than 5870 with 20-25%. So what is so bad that GTX 480 will probably have frecuencys 600/1300(core/shaders)?/5000(1250 GDDR5) ,higher than GTX 295?
512SP single ,GPU 384bytes GDDR5,GTX 480 will be 20%-30% faster than GTX 295 and so logicaly say 50% faster than 5870.
Say the quote is right than GTX 480= GTX 295 or less 5% inferiour, just it will have DX 11. Is this seems logically for some people?
Nivida to launch after more than a year a card =GTX 295?

I wonder what's going to happen if Fermi gets released and really gets close to the 5970 and beat the s*it out of the 5870.
I'm not saying it's going to happen, but if it does, I'd love to see some people eat their words

You're right

**tbone8ty** · 02-21-2010, 12:10 PM

fermi thread part3 = "i cant get one its out of stock everywhere"

**JohnJohn** · 02-21-2010, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by xdan

Just take it logically...
GTX 295 had 480SP(240*2) frecuencys 576/2000/1242(core/memory/shader) with some weaker bus 448 bytes DDR3. And it is better than 5870 with 20-25%.

Yeah right

By your logic then 5870 should be ~ 113% stronger than 4870, because has 100% more shaders and 13% higher clocks.

Nothing is lineal, lots of other things you can't even imagine enter in the scene and produce different effects. So unless you have some info of benchs from some sources your predictions are baseless.

**xdan** · 02-21-2010, 12:34 PM

By your logic then 5870 should be ~ 113% stronger than 4870, because has 100% more shaders and 13% higher clocks.

Nvidia scalability is better than Ati's(in performance), and what i wanted to say is that GTX 480 is single gpu, so will have better efiency than dual-gpu GTX 295 in performance. And add to that 32SP more, higher clocks,new arhitecture, and some good drivers will make 20-30% performance better than GTX 295..
Anyway i'm done with coments, ... launch is not to far away..

**ElSel10** · 02-21-2010, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by xVeinx

My GTX 260 55nm idles at around 50C. Even with a new node, 3 billion transistors are going to produce heat. There are plenty of factors that play into how that heat is dissipated, resulting in the perceived temperature at any one point; even if true, it's not the end of the world. Assuming these figures will be true of released units, then the only real impact this will have is on overclockability (and perhaps lifespan, if the proper precautions haven't been taken).

It's not just the temperature. It's that it was claimed it idles at 70C at 70% fan speed.

Thread: The GT300/Fermi Thread - Part 2!

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