HD5970 Microstuttering tests

[Vinas]

Well, I could never notice a difference back when I had a 3870x2. Today I still can't notice any difference with the so called microstutter. I only believe it exists because people claim they can see it here.

To me the quality between my 5870 is about the same but with more framerates than my old 3870x2... ?

[eRazorzEDGE]

It happens in any SLI/CF system here no matter what.
But it doesn't happen on a single card system.

One way or another, that's my experience and what I can see using all the cards I have here, it's my own experience and realization of what the monitors are displaying, I'm not going to try to convince or force any of you to stand by me and my opinion

Wow, really? First you say it happens to any system, then after a couple of us tell you that's not what we see, you come back and say "oh, well that's my opinion".

Please don't state your opinions as factual, it will save a lot of time and confusion on your part.

[BenchZowner]

I can't see where the problem is.
Both quoted posts are talking about what I see and happens in my rigs ( keyword: HERE )

If you want to talk about factual we can take a dive into the technical aspects of multi-GPU solutions if you think you can follow

[BenchZowner]

I can't see where the problem is.
Both quoted posts are talking about what I see and happens in my rigs ( keyword: HERE )

If you want to talk about factual we can take a dive into the technical aspects of multi-GPU solutions if you think you can follow

[eRazorzEDGE]

I can't see where the problem is.
Both quoted posts are talking about what I see and happens in my rigs ( keyword: HERE )

If you want to talk about factual we can take a dive into the technical aspects of multi-GPU solutions if you think you can follow

You're just twisting it to make it sound like you want it to sound. If I were to say that my computer is the best computer around, how would you take that? I could easily come back and say that whenever I say "...around", I actually mean "... around here in my home".

Please stop trying to act smart by trying to question my intelligence. Arrogance is the key to defeat. A little bit of humble pie might serve you well.

[biohead]

xs trollfest 2010. really, guys? calm down.

[dasa]

for me microsstuttering was clearly evident in doom3 with x1900xtx crossfire
at 60fps smooth as silk but at 55fps it felt like 25fps
such a small drop in fps shouldn't result in such a constant slowdown aslong as it was under 60fps it didn't feel smooth

if its just short random stutters it isn't micro stuttering this is just stutters normally due to memory swapping which plenty of games do especially large outdoors games

[demonkevy666]

can someone test amd vs intel on this.... ?

[MadDias]

can someone test amd vs intel on this.... ?

lol...
anymore fuel to the fire? it´s absolutely cpu/gpu manufacturer independent

as long as ur fps stay above ur monitors refresh rate u cannot experience the microstutter phenomenon.
games that run with fps rates under the monitor refresh rate are stuttering, no matter if ur on a multi-gpu or a single-gpu system.
microstuttering only gets extreme if ur reaching very low fps rates around 30fps, then u can actually notice it. but who the hell plays ego shooters on 30fps??
i once had a x1800xt crossfire setup and never experienced microstuttering. maybe i did.. but then the game was really pushing my system and it was obviously stuttering, no matter if i had a single or two cards
to me the whole microstutter stuff is just theoretical nonsense. my monitor displays 60 frames per second. so i don´t care if one frame is rendered 0.002s or 0.004s after another, as long as there is always a different frame to display 60 times in a second.
microstutter has nothing to do with a drop in fps. ur fps stays the same, the only thing that happens is, that frames aren´t put out "almost" in sync like they would on a single gpu solution. and this is only noticeable in really low fps environments, when u actually wouldn´t play the game, even on a single gpu system.

[annihilat0r]

as long as ur fps stay above ur monitors refresh rate u cannot experience the microstutter phenomenon.

no

games that run with fps rates under the monitor refresh rate are stuttering, no matter if ur on a multi-gpu or a single-gpu system.

no. WHAT? no.

microstuttering only gets extreme if ur reaching very low fps rates around 30fps, then u can actually notice it.

no.

to me the whole microstutter stuff is just theoretical nonsense. my monitor displays 60 frames per second. so i don´t care if one frame is rendered 0.002s or 0.004s after another, as long as there is always a different frame to display 60 times in a second.

You are talking about playing with Vsync on. I cannot play with Vsync on, can neither can anyone who cares about snappy controls.

and this is only noticeable in really low fps environments, when u actually wouldn´t play the game, even on a single gpu system.

Lol, don't you think there's something wrong with this approach? you are supposed to throw in another GPU if you can't play a game on a single gpu system. Don't understand the "even on a single gpu system" approach

[jmke]

no
no. WHAT? no.
no.

just quoting for the funnEY

[BenchZowner]

Looks like ATi's and nVIDIA's marketing channels did a very good job promoting CrossFire & SLI...

[rge]

Honestly I would like to see what microstutter looks like in a video compared to what is seen graphically. At least then we all can agree on what it is and looks like.

It is pointless to spend time arguing over and over it happens everywhere with sli and yet not spend 15 mins to post a video of it with corresponding graph, so those that have never seen it knows what your talking about. And if you dont have sli, and havent tested with any recent drivers or games, that might be the issue.

Took me only few mins to run a couple benchmarks and graph what I saw, but no ms and no diff between 1gpu vs sli so no point in posting a video.

[BenchZowner]

Getting a video of it is much more difficult than understanding it technically.
Why ?
Any screen capturing utility slows down the system's performance significantly.
A handheld camera can't record high FPS as they're outputted by the VGA.

[rge]

Does anyone here, other than BenchZowner, have a known issue of microstuttering in a popular game where they can post a video (like some of the decent gaming videos posted on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aPmBQ-1x0w) and post a graph, or tell me where in the game it exists so I can see if it occurs on mine in 1 gpu vs sli and I will post video and graph?

And BenchZowner I have your opinion that it cant be videod, or ? even seen unless you technically understand it...I hope it is ok with you if I still ask someone else to do it, so I can see for myself whether or not it can be vidoed, and I can at least see exactly where they see it in a game and can try to duplicate myself along with graphing it.

[One_Hertz]

^^

I have two 5870s. One is on the shelf. I played Far Cry 2 and Crysis Warhead with CF on and CF off and I preferred CF OFF as I felt it was smoother and more predictable. In FC2, I would take 50FPS on a single GPU over 80FPS on CF. I have a very fast rig (4.65Ghz QX9650, 4x X25-E in R0 on LSI 9211). I don't know about anyone else, but I immediately notice lag and inconsistencies when using CF. I wish I could fix it somehow so the $400 I spent on a second 5870 wasn't a waste. I ordered a 120HZ screen recently so I could turn vsync on and see if that helps.

[Particle]

If we can't agree on if the problem even exists, how substantial can it really be?

[zalbard]

Seems like VSync related to me. It should get rid of any extra stuttering.

[Carfax]

I don't know about anyone else, but I immediately notice lag and inconsistencies when using CF

Same here. I had an HD 4870 CF set up before, and I noticed graphic anomalies in certain games that would disappear if I took one of the cards out.

I'm very reluctant to try CF ever again..

[MadDias]

You are talking about playing with Vsync on. I cannot play with Vsync on, can neither can anyone who cares about snappy controls.



Lol, don't you think there's something wrong with this approach? you are supposed to throw in another GPU if you can't play a game on a single gpu system. Don't understand the "even on a single gpu system" approach

do u even know what vsync is??
if u have an ordinary lcd monitor ur limited to a refreshrate of 60 frames per second. so u can only see 60 frames per second, no matter if ur gpu is pushing 80 or 230fps to the monitor, it will always display only 60 of them.
when u turn vsync on the gpu is limited to only send 60fps to the monitor.
and vsync isn´t a cure for microstuttering.

even the guys that first looked into the ms problem, by recording the time it took for each frame to be rendered, stated, that that it´s only noticeable under 30fps. so if u think dropping fps, or graphical anomalies, like flashing or texture flickering, is microstuttering, u are wrong. u then better check ur driver installation or the clocks of ur gpus.

what part of "even on a single gpu system" don´t u understand?
if ur getting 40fps on a single gpu, which is stuttering, no matter how bad u want it to be not, and then u put in another gpu to get ur fps up to a point when it meets the refreshrate of ur monitor, the game is actually playable.
as long as the time difference between the rendered frames isn´t higher than 0.016s (which is the refreshrate of a 60Hz lcd) u will not notice any stuttering.

and now don´t come and tell me that u can see more than 60fps on a 60Hz lcd display.

[malik22]

Ive had a 4870X2 for a year now and have never felt any
Microstuttering in any games I play.

[Truckchase!]

MVPU is 31 in mine also, I think that's crossfire enabled... but I'm not sure.

The next one down, MVPUmode is the one I'm talking about.

Hey guys; on ATI driver settings, generally speaking, 31 00 = 1 (true) and 30 00 = 0 (false) I worked this through a long time ago for a benchmarking script I still use that sets ATI & NV driver settings depending on the settings the user desires. I can't remember the whole chain, but I know I worked this much out:

HEX val of 30 00in a REG_BINARY value is considered "OFF" by ATI. This corresponds to a word sized binary value of 11000000000000.

HEX val of 31 00 in a REG_BINARY value is considered "ON" by ATI. This corresponds to a word sized binary value of 11000100000000.

To set via decimal values using reg.write, use 48 and 49 respectively.

Some strings are a direct value, for instance "AnisoDegree" which is set to the binary dword sized value of 110001000000000011011000000000 for 16, which in hex is 31 00 36 00. (which would actually be 1,6 as ATI defines it, not "16" but the effect is the same)

[eRazorzEDGE]

Has anyone noticed screen tearing below 60fps, while playing Crysis and then noticed it go away when turning Vsync on?

BenchZowner mentioned the strafing technique, so I tried it while looking out at the harbor in the level Contact, with the sun behind me and a couple of palm trees directly in front of me at a distance of roughly 5 to 10 feet away. While getting a constant FPS of around 57 FPS and Vsync off, I noticed screen tearing of the edges of the palm trees, but with Vsync on and the same 57 FPS, it went away. It was the same when I used only one GPU.

Anyone have an explanation or can verify what I'm seeing on my end?

[annihilat0r]

do u even know what vsync is??
if u have an ordinary lcd monitor ur limited to a refreshrate of 60 frames per second. so u can only see 60 frames per second, no matter if ur gpu is pushing 80 or 230fps to the monitor, it will always display only 60 of them.
when u turn vsync on the gpu is limited to only send 60fps to the monitor.
and vsync isn´t a cure for microstuttering.

even the guys that first looked into the ms problem, by recording the time it took for each frame to be rendered, stated, that that it´s only noticeable under 30fps. so if u think dropping fps, or graphical anomalies, like flashing or texture flickering, is microstuttering, u are wrong. u then better check ur driver installation or the clocks of ur gpus.

what part of "even on a single gpu system" don´t u understand?
if ur getting 40fps on a single gpu, which is stuttering, no matter how bad u want it to be not, and then u put in another gpu to get ur fps up to a point when it meets the refreshrate of ur monitor, the game is actually playable.
as long as the time difference between the rendered frames isn´t higher than 0.016s (which is the refreshrate of a 60Hz lcd) u will not notice any stuttering.

and now don´t come and tell me that u can see more than 60fps on a 60Hz lcd display.

lol, if vsync is off there are going to be uneven frames and you ARE going to be able to tell differences even above 60 FPS. I used to play CS: Source, with a 60hz monitor, and the difference between 100fps and 70fps would be like day (I mean it was obvious lol). Why? because frames were uneven.

You are talking about "as long as there is a frame to show at every refresh of the monitor" yes, you are right about that. But having a FPS more than 60 doesn't guarantee you that if you are not using vsync. Consider the case evident on one of the graphs above.

FRAPS is showing you 60FPS which corresponds to a 17ms frame time difference. But when you look at the charts, you see that this is far from being the case. Every even frame is rendered at 10ms and every odd frame at 25ms. To illustrate, frame times would be like:

10-35-45-70-85-110.

What does this give you? Yes, 60FPS. But, let's look at the vertical refresh times from the monitor:

16.6-33.2-50-66.6-84-100.

At 16.6 ms, the monitor displays the first frame. But at 33.2 ms, the monitor doesn't have a new frame to display, so it continues displaying the old one. At 50ms, it displays the third frame, at 66.6 it displays the third frame again, at 84 it displays the fifth frame and at 100ms it displays the fifth frame again.

So in 100 milliseconds, all you got to see was three separate frames. Despite FRAPS displaying 60 frames per second, you are effectively seeing 30.

This might be an extreme case but is nevertheless not unrealistic.

[RaZz!]

Does anyone here, other than BenchZowner, have a known issue of microstuttering in a popular game where they can post a video (like some of the decent gaming videos posted on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aPmBQ-1x0w) and post a graph, or tell me where in the game it exists so I can see if it occurs on mine in 1 gpu vs sli and I will post video and graph?

And BenchZowner I have your opinion that it cant be videod, or ? even seen unless you technically understand it...I hope it is ok with you if I still ask someone else to do it, so I can see for myself whether or not it can be vidoed, and I can at least see exactly where they see it in a game and can try to duplicate myself along with graphing it.

the german website pcgameshardware.de put a lot of effort in proving microstuttering and trying to show it with videos. afaik pcgh also were the guys who first came up with the microstuttering issue (i think they reported about stuttering issues for the first time with the 7950gx2).

for everyone who wants a direct comparison of single gpu and multi gpu graphs of frame times pcgh has a few articles that show a huge difference between these 2 setups.
e.g.:
- http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,63...fikkarte/Test/
- http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,65...fikkarte/Test/

i think the english website of pcgh (pcgameshardware.com) has some other tests as well. however, i can't search for them right now as the work proxy blocks it
you also want to check pcgh's youtube channel for videos of microstuttering.

if you have a single gpu and want to experience microstuttering yourself there's a demo-application a guy over at computerbase.de created to showcase how microstuttering looks like:
http://www.computerbase.de/downloads...er_single-gpu/

i experienced microstuttering myself on a rig with a 3870x2. and it really felt like the demo-application i linked above. however, i never saw that amount of microstuttering on a e.g. 4870x2. i DO think that ati as well as nvidia were able to reduce the effect somehow with their current gen cards. however, it's still there.

and this whole discussion about "i can see it" - "you suck, i can't, there's no ms!" - "there is you monkey!" etc is pretty retarded imo.
it's the same with discussions like "i can't see a difference between 30 and 123895623875 fps", "i don't notice any tearing at all!", "mouselag with enabled vsync? i've never experienced anything like that!", "120hz, why would anyone want more than 60hz!?!??!?!?!"

you know, the problem is that maybe all of these people are right. everybody has a different perception. some people may notice or be bothered by smth other people don't notice respectively see at all. it's all purely subjective.
if one is playing a game running at 30fps with a crapload of screen tearing and microstuttering as well and you aren't bothered by that at all, i'm the first one to congratulate that person. because i notice everything of the mentioned, and i'm quite unhappy about that. sometimes i wish i wouldn't notice it as well, so i never had to bother about these issues again.