The GT300/Fermi Thread

[tajoh111]

NV makes bucket of money off of quadro already. This looks like it might open new doors for revenue because of the added flexibility of the new architecture in addition to the added performance.

I think NV is to some extent correct in brushing off the lead AMD has right now in the directx 11 market. 2 million gpu sounds like alot but even if AMD was making a 100 dollar profit on each card, that would be 200 million dollars(and its probably alot less than this, likely half, considering the graphic card makers have to make money). That not that much money in the grand scheme of things(considering the amount of R and D AMD has to sink in) and although they will pick up some marketshare, if fermi is good enough, it can steal that marketshare back.

The largest reason I think NV can not panic over this marketshare loss is the state of the current gaming graphic arena as a result of the terrible state of pc gaming at the moment. Especially new titles(not WOW), pc gaming has hit a rut and the fuel to purchase new hardware at the moment isn't that high. In the UK atleast, the PC edition of call of duty modern warfare 2 only accounted for 3% of the total sales or in other words, the consoles made 97 percent of the sales.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/mo...ml?sid=6241052

Call of duty modern warfare has more hype than any other pc game and it still barely sold. In such a dying market, nvidia can afford to lose marketshare for the time being because it isn't that much revenue lost or potential revenue lost. To put this into a much larger perspective, the total retail sales of PC games in 2009 was 548 million dollars.

http://www.gamedaily.com/games/the-s...tores-in-2009/

Considering the sales of any Nintendo game(the new super mario bros has been out 2 months yet it has similar revenue at 10 million plus unit sold), pc gaming is in the gutter.

If the 20 percent thing is true, its actually quite decent considering it is a new architecture. With the programmability of fermi, I can see 20% becoming 40% percent in the future simply because look at the initial drivers of the the 8800gtx compared to later drivers.

Fermi is radically different than past architectures, so the driver team is working from the ground up.

The worrying aspect of fermi at this point is power consumption and scalability. If fermi can't be scaled down to the under 300 dollar market, it's going be ignoring most consumers. NV has to keep the general populous happy, to keep its partners happy. Power consumption is going to be an issue because eventually this thing has to be going in laptops. With more and more laptops being sold compared to desktops, ignoring the mobile markets for a year would be totally stupid since the margins on laptop parts are insane. And of course yields need to get up asap.

[Jamesrt2004]

The worrying aspect of fermi at this point is power consumption and scalability. If fermi can't be scaled down to the under 300 dollar market, it's going be ignoring most consumers. NV has to keep the general populous happy, to keep its partners happy. Power consumption is going to be an issue because eventually this thing has to be going in laptops. With more and more laptops being sold compared to desktops, ignoring the mobile markets for a year would be totally stupid since the margins on laptop parts are insane. And of course yields need to get up asap.

Ati are making more money then that, wait for price drops cant drop it $100 if they are only making $50!



agree on most the stuff about fermi

and totally agree, but its not most consumers, it's nearly all consumers, high end sales count for a tiny tiny amount arount 5/6%.... most sales come from gamers spending $100~200 for a quick upgrade and the rest from the lowend for OEM's ... nvidia was ok last round cos it managaed to get a load of igp chips for laptops etc....


this round seems like it will be a tad harder for them

but all the best too them...


(still anoyed at these benchmarks.. nda is up and they wont say what card it is ...) personally i think its 380... and they are trying to hide the fact cos' it's not as good as they personally want it to be.

[saaya]

of couse, all of this will be true IF the 512sp variant makes it to launch... and I am not even talking about a hard launch

you mean they could focus on a dual gpu card instead for highend? i think 3 fermis are enough to beat a 5970, right? so then they might never actually make a dual gpu fermi... why bother... extra time and rnd resources, and 3x sli costs them nothing and works immediatly.

and yes, you bring up a good point... the tesla cards will cost 2500$+ and they will not have all shader cores enabled... now why would nvidia sell a fully functional gpu for a fraction of that price to gamers if it could make over 1000$ more, pure margin, if it would sell it as a gpgpu card?

why is there no 512core tesla card? cause it would be a PR stunt only, but in the corporate segment customers arent fooled that easily, if you cant ship 1000+ units, then the product doesnt exist for them...

This has gotta be the most desperate attempt in the history of the GFX market to stop sales of competing product (and stalling the sales of your own lineup) by upping the dust around the phantom product that will not be out in the next two or three months! Bravo nVidia

i think their no1 goal was to get the nvidia stock to rise again... lets wait n see if that works, might take a week before ANAL-ysts pick this up

[annihilat0r]

All info we've been hearing and I've been getting from messaging and so on definitively points towards a dual GPU. I guess it will be made off the GTS 350 which is supposed to be 384cc.

This also means that the full single Fermi won't be 300w since then it'd be faster than the dual. My guess is that the GTX 380 will be 448sp OR will be downclocked for 250W max.

[saaya]

NV makes bucket of money off of quadro already. This looks like it might open new doors for revenue because of the added flexibility of the new architecture in addition to the added performance.

I think NV is to some extent correct in brushing off the lead AMD has right now in the directx 11 market. 2 million gpu sounds like alot but even if AMD was making a 100 dollar profit on each card, that would be 200 million dollars(and its probably alot less than this, likely half, considering the graphic card makers have to make money). That not that much money in the grand scheme of things(considering the amount of R and D AMD has to sink in) and although they will pick up some marketshare, if fermi is good enough, it can steal that marketshare back.

if you think ati making 100$ per card is bad then how about the GTX260 below 200$? how much is nvidia making on those for the past months? :P

The worrying aspect of fermi at this point is power consumption and scalability. If fermi can't be scaled down to the under 300 dollar market, it's going be ignoring most consumers. NV has to keep the general populous happy, to keep its partners happy. Power consumption is going to be an issue because eventually this thing has to be going in laptops. With more and more laptops being sold compared to desktops, ignoring the mobile markets for a year would be totally stupid since the margins on laptop parts are insane. And of course yields need to get up asap.

dont know what you mean the entry level and laptop 300 parts have been out for weeks already, so nvidia has those segments covered...

[Teemax]

So much hype about a "press release" for nothing, really.

I could care less if GF100 could do 500fps on Farcry 2... Since NVIDIA talks so much about the awesome DX11 tessellation, show us a Unigine Heaven bench or something.


Or better yet, just release the darn thing already!
Nobody knows what the clocks will be, so all talk about performance is quite useless at this point.

[zerazax]

All info we've been hearing and I've been getting from messaging and so on definitively points towards a dual GPU. I guess it will be made off the GTS 350 which is supposed to be 384cc.

This also means that the full single Fermi won't be 300w since then it'd be faster than the dual. My guess is that the GTX 380 will be 448sp OR will be downclocked for 250W max.

A 2 x 320 or 2 x 384 SP dual Fermi is most likely what will have to exist if a dual GPU version will exist at all

Overall, Fermi's architecture looks like it will be great for future titles and computation - for existing games, a 20% speed improvement over a stock 5870 seems to be the popular prediction. The question now is... what will be it's cost and power efficiency?

[Jamesrt2004]

if you think ati making 100$ per card is bad then how about the GTX260 below 200$? how much is nvidia making on those for the past months? :P

dont know what you mean the entry level and laptop 300 parts have been out for weeks already, so nvidia has those segments covered...

there not 300 series there renammmmes D= !!!

[saaya]

All info we've been hearing and I've been getting from messaging and so on definitively points towards a dual GPU. I guess it will be made off the GTS 350 which is supposed to be 384cc.

This also means that the full single Fermi won't be 300w since then it'd be faster than the dual. My guess is that the GTX 380 will be 448sp OR will be downclocked for 250W max.

hmmmm one thing i found interesting that H pointed out is that fermi is actually not arranged as 16 blocks of 32SMs but 4large modules containing 4blocks of 32SMs each... then wouldnt it make more sense that nvidia cuts down fermi using those large modules? in that case GF104 is most likely 320SPS, and a dual card based on that would be 640SPs which should definately beat the 5970...

and looking at the perf numbers we got, a 320SP fermi should be right around 5870 performance, especially if we consider that drivers will improve perf a bit... what do you think?

all nvidia needs to do is scale down fermi to 5870perf+X% and then they have a mainstream and ultra highend part. the interesting thing is, IF they do this, they basically copy atis strategy and stop focussing on one huge monolithic gpu to rule the market

[Tim]

Any comments on Charlie's article? Info discussed there sounds quite bad to me.

[saaya]

there not 300 series there renammmmes D= !!!

Any comments on Charlie's article? Info discussed there sounds quite bad to me.

well, its an article from charlie about nvidia, what did you expect? him waving an nvidia flag?

he was pretty pessimistic about gt200 as well, but gt200 actually worked out pretty well for nvidia... but that was with tsmc doing a good job at 55nm... and that was with nvidia having a great mainstream part to recycle, aka G92...

he definately brings up some very good points... reading his article i smiled a few times cause i came to the same conclusion or had the same thought... i think reading the nvidia pr inspired articles and then his article really helps to brings things into perspective...

[Tim]

I think reading the nvidia pr inspired articles and then his article really helps to brings things into perspective...

I fully agree, it keeps you levelheaded and it can honestly only get better from there.

GF100 is definitely shaping up to be a monster, that's for certain.

I like Hardwarecanucks little tidbit here :

If we assume the performance we saw was coming out of the beta, underclocked version of a 512SP GF100 running alpha-stage drivers, this is going to be one hell of a graphics card. On the other hand, if NVIDIA was using 448SP equipped cards for these tests, the true potential of the GF100 is simply mind-boggling. Coupled with the compute power and architecture specifically designed for the rigors of a DX11 environment, it could be a gamer’s wet dream come true.

[kgk]

Again, CPU has an effect on minimum framerates.

And? I didn't bother scrolling back through that whole conversation between you all, but if the tests were all done with the same hardware (CPU, Mobo and RAM) and only changing out the GPUs, what does that have to do with anything?

Didn't they all have a common baseline?

[grimREEFER]

the H advice is the worst thing I've ever read: buy a 5870 now, and then sell it when the fermi card comes out, if it turns out to be better.
The thing is, im pretty sure they are about to get alot cheaper.

[KingOfsorroW]

Dam, I want fermi now. The good old nvidia card. But I'm sure ATI will have something to counter the fermi by the time when it will actually be out.

[saaya]

the H advice is the worst thing I've ever read: buy a 5870 now, and then sell it when the fermi card comes out, if it turns out to be better.
The thing is, im pretty sure they are about to get alot cheaper.

idk... are you sure? why should they lower the price?

Dam, I want fermi now. The good old nvidia card. But I'm sure ATI will have something to counter the fermi by the time when it will actually be out.

well if the card they showed was a 512core version, then ati already has something to compete with... the 5970...

I like Hardwarecanucks little tidbit here :

If we assume the performance we saw was coming out of the beta, underclocked version of a 512SP GF100 running alpha-stage drivers, this is going to be one hell of a graphics card. On the other hand, if NVIDIA was using 448SP equipped cards for these tests, the true potential of the GF100 is simply mind-boggling. Coupled with the compute power and architecture specifically designed for the rigors of a DX11 environment, it could be a gamer’s wet dream come true.

i think that statement is too optimistic and naive...
come on, its nvidia we are dealing with here...
there is a reason nvidia didnt say how many cores the card has and how many cores the cards will have that they launch... nvidia has shown that they can beat the 5870 and reach 5970 performance... well that was to be expected from such a huge part... they now have to show that they can mass produce it and sell it at a price point that its competitive.

why would nvidia show a slower fermi card losing to a 5970 in far cry2 if they have a faster card that performs the same or beats it?
if nvidia had a SINGLE gpu card that could beat atis fastest DUAL GPU card, you can count on it, they would not only tell you about it, they would tell everybody and you wouldnt be able to turn on the tv or check your mail without knowing about it

[KingOfsorroW]

well if the card they showed was a 512core version, then ati already has something to compete with... the 5970...

Sure, but comparing dual gpu to a single gpu card is not a fair comparison imo.

[Jamesrt2004]

idk... are you sure? why should they lower the price?

well if the card they showed was a 512core version, then ati already has something to compete with... the 5970...


i think that statement is too optimistic and naive...
come on, its nvidia we are dealing with here...
there is a reason nvidia didnt say how many cores the card has and how many cores the cards will have that they launch... nvidia has shown that they can beat the 5870 and reach 5970 performance... well that was to be expected from such a huge part... they now have to show that they can mass produce it and sell it at a price point that its competitive.

why would nvidia show a slower fermi card losing to a 5970 in far cry2 if they have a faster card that performs the same or beats it?
if nvidia had a SINGLE gpu card that could beat atis fastest DUAL GPU card, you can count on it, they would not only tell you about it, they would tell everybody and you wouldnt be able to turn on the tv or check your mail without knowing about it

+1 i thought the exact same thing..

Sure, but comparing dual gpu to a single gpu card is not a fair comparison imo.

why if they cost the same.. or even less... lol

do people not understand...

5970 was ALWAYS ati's card to fight against nvidia's TOP SINGLE card.. in price AND performance.....

so it's fair... as thats what has been known for like a year now..

anyone who says different is just pissed cos nvidia didnt do aswell as they hoped.

[Mk]

well if this the gtx360 then impressed but if its the gtx380 then meh its fine but i expected more with all the propaganda around it

[Jamesrt2004]

well if this the gtx360 then impressed but if its the gtx380 then meh its fine but i expected more with all the propaganda around it

but it was us lot who hyped it up more then we should I have posts in one of the many threads saying.... it will be like last round.. there top card in between ati's single n dual.. and then when nvidia comes out with it's dual it'll be top again....

just price/perf ati's easily able to win as it's cores a small compared..

[FischOderAal]

well if this the gtx360 then impressed but if its the gtx380 then meh its fine but i expected more with all the propaganda around it

Why should NVIDIA use anything else than their Top-End for such things?

[madcho]

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/782-...ometrique.html

Evrything on GF100 on the best french web site.

[KingOfsorroW]

why if they cost the same.. or even less... lol

do people not understand...

5970 was ALWAYS ati's card to fight against nvidia's TOP SINGLE card.. in price AND performance.....

so it's fair... as thats what has been known for like a year now..

anyone who says different is just pissed cos nvidia didnt do aswell as they hoped.

Im not pissed. And actually it looks like nvidia is doing even better than I "hoped", but that just "seems" so far ...so... I just think that nomatter how one manufacturer positions his product the comparison should be done as a sngle gpu vs single gpu and dual gpu vs dual. That would be logical don't you think so?

[Jamesrt2004]

Im not pissed. And actually it looks like nvidia is doing even better than I "hoped", but that just "seems" so far ...so... I just think that nomatter how one manufacturer positions his product the comparison should be done as a sngle gpu vs single gpu and dual gpu vs dual. That would be logical don't you think so?

although logical it has the floor that the dual card could be cheaper then said single card, so that why many do it on a price/perf basis,


which ati and nvidia have made it clear, that its 5970 v's gf100

[KingOfsorroW]

although logical it has the floor that the dual card could be cheaper then said single card, so that why many do it on a price/perf basis,


which ati and nvidia have made it clear, that its 5970 v's gf100

I'd say it's rather 2xx vs 4xxx, ??? vs 5xxx and gf100 vs ???
The price doesn't matter - it's the technology that counts.