There's no doubt that W7 will be heavily marketed but I can't see how this will make the general public shift to DX11. DX10 cards can still be used for W7 and I highly doubt that DX11 will be a major point for W7's marketing for Microsoft.Originally Posted by Xoulz
In other words, I can see the general public know about / want Windows 7, but not especially DX11. Nvidia cards can still run W7, right?
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Couldn't agree more
The point being made about 7 and DX11 is from a marketing standpoint ( eg upcoming fliers, adds, commercials and what retail store sales people will suggest / push ) At the end of the day your average Joe buying a machine wants to get the most for the money spent that will do what they need. Whether that happens to be using such and such brand of hardware doesn't matter to them ( hell most people have the belief that HP vs Dell Vs Acer ect are total different balls games - eg they seem to think they make their own hardware and that they are different ; I say this entirely from experience selling computers to the average consumer for over 2 years )
However given the option to choose a machine with newer technology and a new ( lets not forget optimistic ) OS launch, odds are one will be more inclined to purchase a system which is using ATis latest "fully Windows 7 compatible" hardware ( expect to see a lot of things being sold as Windows 7 compatible soon). A large amount of what made Vista have a poor showing early on was the media's general onslaught on it. If I had a dollar for every customer that said " I heard this about Vista..." I would be drinking out of coconuts on a private island right now. I think 7 will be much more warmly received both in retail and in the media so this will only help the fact the ATI will be the only ones shipping DX11 hardware for the near future. Now whether people should care or not is a different story all together ( many people may be sold on these new features and never need them ; eg your none gamers or even your avg relatively computer illiterate WoW player "Oh it has DX11 it will makes my DPS go up!!" ) but if they are told that such and such machine is using newer hardware which supports all of the features of the new operating system where as another does not, which do you think they are most likely to pick.
Now it is hard to say how many OEM units in stores will be available with mid to low range HD 5xxx cards but the fact that there are some still puts Nvidia at a disadvantage potential sales wise. Also look at Dells site right now, they are pushing HD5800s pretty hard now, I can't imagine what their pitch will be like once DX11 is relevant. Now I do realize you won't see 5870s ( and probably not even 5850 any time soon ) in store bought machines ( I've never seen a store bought hp / gateway / dell ,even the high end ones, with better than a 4850but the 5750/70 are what are really going to do well for AMD.
Now I'm still of the belief that although ideally Nvidia would have liked to have capitalized on the new system upgrade onslaught this holiday season ( as in users finally deciding to let go of their aging machines as well as those buying their family a new machine as a gift - very common I've found ) that they will still be fine even with a later GF100 launch. It is not like they'll had mid to entry level DX11 skus shipping for at least 5-6 months likely anyhow. A later launch mainly effects us gamers / enthusiasts. I still expect Nvidia will leverage their superior marketing to pimp GTX200s for all they can throughout the early months of 7s launch.
People keep bringing up the fact that things aren't like they were 3-4 years ago when we had many block busters to look forwards to ( Far Cry, Half Life 2, Doom 3, Crysis ect ) and given we won't see many DX11 titles in the next couple months, there is really no real incentive to upgrade as far as "new experiences " go but merely just more of the same ( just faster ) I expect HD5800 sales will be strong but not so astronomical that Nvidia employees start applying at MacDonalds.
Last edited by Chickenfeed; 10-04-2009 at 12:35 PM.
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I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that it would cost nVidia millions of dollors to redesign their drivers to allow their cards to work seamlessly with an ATi main graphics card as a dedicated physx processor.
nVidia didn't "break" anything. They made a smart business decision to not risk a bunch of money attempting to make their cards work smoothly with their competitor, and more importantly.... a completely different architecture.
Personally, I have doubts that such an idea would even work even remotely as well as it does between two nVidia cards... even ones with different architectures.
SLI was a patented technology that nVidia paid a lot of money for when they purchased a lot of 3dfx when they went out of business years ago. nVidia had every right to keep SLI for themselves... though it would have made sense to charge Intel licensing fees to also make SLI boards.but BLOCKING it on purpose... thats lame...
but hey, we know it from sli
i guess now that nvidia was forced to unblock sli, they are probably looking for other things to block instead ^^
[quote[or maybe they actually think they can do the same as with sli and ask for license fees or money from ati and intel to allow physix on their systems[/quote]
Seriously though... do you truly believe that in order to be "fair" and "do the right thing", nVidia should "give" its competitors use of SLI, Physx, CUDA, etc?
...and I thought patents were given to inventors to protect their idea from people who want to steal it to use for their own profit (without any payment). Without patent protection, there would be absolutely no point to spend massive amounts of money on R&D since it would be very hard to recoup the investment with other companies just stealing my invention.
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government"
-- Alexander Hamilton
As if the numbers you're pulling from who knows where mixed with wishful preaching is meaningful, sure right gotcha roger that we come from france.
So the avg public is in the know on DX11 and Windows7 ????
Most probably don't even know what DX is or what OS they are using or even care why they need a newer one or either.
Have you seen the Window 7 commercial with the little 6 year old girl..?
Do you understand, or know anything about the over-all computer industry? Most people when buying a computer are more interested in what Windows OS...
They don't care about what brand HD is in their computer, or even if it's Intel or AMD... but they will know all about WINDOWS 7. Perhaps you, yourself don't know all there is, or the experience Microsoft is going to try and sell the world on. But Win7 is going to be marketed as an integral part of our daily lives. Movies, music, appliance, social networks, etc.. and GRAPHICS is what the driving force behind all this "user friendly" experience.
Microsoft wants to crush Mac, because Microsoft is the PC. Indirectly, Microsoft is pushing DX11... open your eyes!
Microsoft will make it known, to have the FULL Windows 7 experience, they will need a fully compliant computer (ie: video card), so new hardware & the Dx11 logo will play a prominent role in Microsoft attempt to move the PC forward... coincidentally, Microsoft has already said that Windows 7 will be the heaviest marketed OS in their history!
MS will sell people on the new user experience, & power of Win7, etc.... But, also on how a new computer is cheap and will take advantage of Window 7. Intel will also be being selling us a new user's experience this shopping season... as they try to market their Intel inside campaign. Nvidia will be the only player not advertising a new users experience.
That is why Fermi is so unflattering, because before it is actually available or affordable, ATi will be releasing 2nd revisions to their 5000 series. Fan or not, sales = profits!
Last edited by Xoulz; 10-04-2009 at 01:00 PM.
+1
DX11's momentum is due to Windows 7's. Vista being a bad OS was overhyped and Windows 7 being a good OS has been (over)hyped to epic proportions. The regular, every-day Joe knows about Windows 7. My father asked me if he needed it and if all his old files would work with it the other day. If he knows, the most computer illiterate human being in the Western world must know about it. MS's intertia with this product is simply unstoppable. Unlike DX10, we will see DX11 dominate.
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Wat
millions of dollars?
wat
seriously
wat
half an hour, tops. Give me a few mil and I'll have a working nvidia physx card with an ati gpu
Seriously though... do you truly believe that in order to be "fair" and "do the right thing", nVidia should "give" its competitors use of SLI, Physx, CUDA, etc?I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that it would cost nVidia millions of dollors to redesign their drivers to allow their cards to work seamlessly with an ATi main graphics card as a dedicated physx processor.
nVidia didn't "break" anything. They made a smart business decision to not risk a bunch of money attempting to make their cards work smoothly with their competitor, and more importantly.... a completely different architecture.
Personally, I have doubts that such an idea would even work even remotely as well as it does between two nVidia cards... even ones with different architectures.
SLI was a patented technology that nVidia paid a lot of money for when they purchased a lot of 3dfx when they went out of business years ago. nVidia had every right to keep SLI for themselves... though it would have made sense to charge Intel licensing fees to also make SLI boards.
[quote[or maybe they actually think they can do the same as with sli and ask for license fees or money from ati and intel to allow physix on their systems
...and I thought patents were given to inventors to protect their idea from people who want to steal it to use for their own profit (without any payment). Without patent protection, there would be absolutely no point to spend massive amounts of money on R&D since it would be very hard to recoup the investment with other companies just stealing my invention.[/QUOTE]
it (physx) works without any problems with nvidia cards; i gave it a try with a gf 8600 on my old DFI board
no hickups and 100% smooth gameplay
they DID break it on purpose to stop enthusiasts from buying high-end amd hardware and a dirt cheap low power gf9400 for physx
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Thats good that your father asked about Windows7 but what did you tell him in regards to if/why he need it? Did he also ask if he needed a DX11 video card or if a 5770 or 5870 would be enough as well?
Windows7 is going to sell itself without any advertising, it is positioned to be the next mainstream OS regardless of choices.
So say a consumer says, I'm buying a new computer and I want the latest Windows7 OS, what is DX11 and why do I need it over the cheaper rig here without DX11 capabilities, will basic video be enough for browsing the net and using word.
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Again please refer to what I posted above. It is what they are being presented and sold on. Not what they are asking for. And trust me, more often than not, that is how it goes down in retail sales ( people wind up with more than they need because they were convinced they needed or it was new, without fully understanding what it was )
Fact remains that Fermi isn't relevant to Windows 7 and its launch. As an enthusiast I am looking forward to their launch but general consumers will remain unaffected for 6months if not more ( when we should hopefully see mainstream products shipping in OEM machines )
Last edited by Chickenfeed; 10-04-2009 at 01:55 PM.
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Nothing is broken.they DID break it on purpose to stop enthusiasts from buying high-end amd hardware and a dirt cheap low power gf9400 for physx
All nVidia did was decide not to create special drivers that would have allowed their competitor to get GPU based PhysX processing for free instead of paying licensing fees like nVidia wanted.
I love how so many of you actually believe nVidia is a bad guy because they won't give away for free technology they spent millions of dollars to develop.
Yes, millions. This isn't some cingular cost project. Residual expenses will go on for years.Wat
millions of dollars?
wat
seriously
wat
half an hour, tops. Give me a few mil and I'll have a working nvidia physx card with an ati gpu
First off, the driver isn't as quick and easy as you claim, and definitely won't take any 30 minutes. They'd likely have a team of people actually creating the driver which of course has to allow ALL of ATi's video cards communicate seamlessly with all nVidia cards capable of doing PhysX processing. Then of course you would know that drivers are actually updated and improved every few months.... allowing for new products, code refinement, and to fix bugs. This is an expense that will go on for years. Then combine all the overhead (salary, benefits, computers, office space, etc) nVidia would have to add to their expenses due to this program... and over 5-10 years or so.... the costs can easily reach into the millions.
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Don't get me wrong, as any technojunkie around here I look forward to the latest and greatest but out in the wild public we are largely a minority as far as our wants and needs in hardware/software.
It's the overhype that I find out of place with how all the sudden in a depressed economy people are going to want/need to upgrade their perfectly fine computer for a new OS and a DX11 video card for no use. To tell the truth I haven't even seen MS mentioning dx11 with win7 as far as promoting them together yet, maybe I'm overlooking it.
The father issue above is a perfect example of what I see, whats win7 and do I need it so much as why does an avg consumer need dx11 on top of it.
Anyways its getting off topic and I'll resign myself back to lurking...
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No, completely wrong. A PhysX processor needs to communicate with the CPU, not graphics card. There is no intricate connection between the two like Nvidia claims. The best thing Nvidia could do is allow the Geforce cards to run off the PhysX driver without the need for their graphics driver to be installed at all. This would in effect transform their GPUs into more powerfull standalone AGIEA PhysX cards, which I beleive they still support anyway.
do any of you know how salesmen at bestbuy and fry's sell to the average guy.
well we have this computer here amd athlon II x2, 2GB of ram, nvidia GTS 250
or we have this computer here amd athlon II x2, 2GB of ram, ati 5700 HAS NEW STANDARD DX11
They broke it Andrew.
It worked before they disable it in drivers.
Why ATI due paying a licensing fees to someting they don't use!
PhysX works solely on Nvidia cards!
The guys screwed are Nvidia customers who buy a card for PhysX.
Nice, so you know more about how a company's software works than the company itself? Read, learn, then speak. Preferably in that order
The Fermi pipeline is optimized to switch to below 25 microseconds, a significant improvement over last generation GPUs. Besides improved performance, this allows developers to create applications that take greater advantage of frequent kernel-to-kernel communication, such as fine-grained interoperation between graphics and PhysX applications.
I'm afraid you're the one who needs to learn how to read. The above quote is talking about running PhysX and graphics on a single chip, hence the need for of the architecture for fast switching between kernels. This is different then using a GPU as a standalone PhysX card.
Physics are mathematical equation that dont need to talk to the GPU in any system & the out putted results don't need to even be represented by gfx, nore more so than folding at home that can run on the CPU or the GPU.Nice, so you know more about how a company's software works than the company itself? Read, learn, then speak. Preferably in that order
Point being you know nothing about how PhysX works internally or how data moves through the pipeline. So now you can stop claiming you do
Yes, and how does that have bearing on the implementation?
The point was that it does not need to.Point being you know nothing about how PhysX works internally or how data moves through the pipeline. So now you can stop claiming you do
Yes, and how does that have bearing on the implementation?
You do know that PhysX works on the CPU.
I don't get why the DX11 cards available/not available at Windows 7 launch is even arguable. Nvidia would have loved to have one there, regardless of whether there is any software there, because it would be good PR pure and simple. Not having it might not be a big deal in the end, but you bet your $$ that if they could choose between having it ready at launch or not ready, they'd choose the former every single time
As far as whether the mainstream even understands DX11 in Windows 7 or whatever - of course they don't! But marketing, especially from OEMS, will make sure everyone knows that to get the most hip and up to date system, you've got to go with such and such piece
The people who don't know what OS they run, or what DX is are not buying external GPUs.As if the numbers you're pulling from who knows where mixed with wishful preaching is meaningful, sure right gotcha roger that we come from france.
So the avg public is in the know on DX11 and Windows7????
Most probably don't even know what DX is or what OS they are using or even care why they need a newer one or either.
The average gamers are. And they know their OS. They know what DX is and that DX11 is great. Same with Win7. Now, they want to get top notch GPU with DX11 support by christmas.
Yeah, say that gamers are a niche market. There are only what, 10 million WoW players, and WoW helds less than 50 % of the MMORPG market. 20 million active MMORPG players. Sure, they do not need new GPU to run the MMORPG, but I guess many, MANY of them are active gamers who play the new games aswell. Let alone the rest of online gamers. And yeah, not to mention those who do not play online. Big, big market there.
Yep. Unfortunately that doesn't tell us much. Unless of course you assume it's the same code base and they don't have a GPU optimized path which is highly unlikely given the vast differences in the architectures. Actually, I'm almost certain that's the case becaues they have a CUDA 1.3 optimized PhysX implementation, i.e. different paths for G80 and GT200 based cards.
Yeah there's no doubt they aimed for the Win7 launch and missed. Now they're hoping to tread water for a few months and then make nice with Fermi.
cpu physx is WAY slower than gpu physx.
No, at a low level I don't understand the pipeline. But at a higher level, I do have a basic understanding of how a computer works. Let me break it down for you:Point being you know nothing about how PhysX works internally or how data moves through the pipeline. So now you can stop claiming you do
1. To use an Nvidia card as a standalone PhysX card, you DO NOT use an SLI bridge to connect that card to other Nvidia cards.
2. No SLI bridge means no direct GPU-GPU communications.
3. Instead, the standalone PhysX processor communicates with CPU, the CPU offloads PhsyX tasks to the standalone card, the card does the calculations and passes the result back to the CPU, and then the CPU merges that result with the rest of the code it`s working on, and passes that combined result on to the GPU (the one dedicated to graphics) to render.
4. If there were `intricate connections` between PPU and GPU then you would have a massive and uneeded increase in latency (unless it went through the SLI bridge, which it doesen`t) and ATI cards just plain wouldn`t work -- ever.
Last edited by hurleybird; 10-04-2009 at 04:25 PM.
NV needs to sort it out as people who have bought an NV card should be allowed to use it as they see fit.
What's the point of Fermi that has no display output & its purposes is to be a number cruncher but may have issues with what GPU you have in your system.
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