So how do you explain HD4800 vs. G200?Originally Posted by Calmatory
So how do you explain HD4800 vs. G200?
You were not supposed to see this.
Have you guys seen the movie Duplicity? haha im sure nvidia and ati hire spy's to work for the other company to steal info
What needs explanation? Nvidia being surprised of RV770's 800 SPs? No way. People working on the field for over 15 years for sure know about pads and the limitations they yield for small chips. So no, they were aware that 480 SPs core would be padlimited if using 256-bit bus, they had to expect more.
What could Nvidia have done better? They made as great perf/mm˛ GPU as they could. They would have stripped the GPU down to bare minimum in size if they just could without sacrificing the performance. Actually GT200 would have been even better in terms of perf/mm˛ if they had used GDDR5, but for reason or another they did not. Maybe costs/availability, or the high power consumption.
They did overprice their GPUs to milk. The only thing which probably surprised was AMD's aggressive pricing. Not the RV770 chip itself. I remind, they have people working there who have been designing the GPU architectures for some 15 years, if not more. I refuse to believe that random chaps on forums could come up with better guesses/explanations than those people with their expertise.
Last edited by Calmatory; 09-15-2009 at 10:08 AM.
Specs of upcoming GPUs are frozen typically a year if not more before they are even announced.
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Or a semi-hard launch coupled with months of searching high and low for stock replenishment.
Yes, but remember that there are several more steps involved rather than just announcing additional wafer production. And even 30,000 per month is a paltry number in the grand scheme of things.
The info isn't extrapolated. The HD 4770 situation of stock in the channel at launch followed by very few units available after that was used as an example.
Except the community is doing it to itself; and that's not AMD's fault. Because (improperly) leaked information gives us a heads up before a planned date doesn't mean AMD should fold and say "well alright guys, we'll move everything up a month, just for you." The September 10th event seemed to mainly showcase Eyefinity and the new technologies available with the 5xxx series, not so much the cards themselves. This is normal marketing procedure and the timeline makes sense - showcase some really cool techonology, let the buzz build and many news outlets report on it, let it reach all streams (especially mainstream consumers), then have the products available in (less than) two weeks. Because enthusiasts like ourselves obsess over it and knew all information practically as soon as it left AMD's mouths doesn't mean there's anything wrong with AMD. The leaks and all of that are NOT what's supposed to happen - that's NOT part of the marketing plan and is an example of people jumping the gun before AMD is ready. These last two weeks are vital for dotting i's and crossing t's to make sure the launch goes smoothly. Now of course, if AMD doesn't release by the end of September then I'll agree - they really missed the peak of the buzz and a good launch.
Honestly though, some of you remind me of children waiting for Christmas to open up their presents "Can't I open my presents now? Please? Come on, please!? Mom, what if I open up one right now, just one, I'll leave the rest, please!? Pretty please?"
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Yes, but remember that there are several more steps involved rather than just announcing additional wafer production. And even 30,000 per month is a paltry number in the grand scheme of things.
I'm certain it is compared to when things are going at their capacity. Also the number reserved for 40nm wafers also will include all 40 nm chips, not just the 58XX series. I'm pretty certain that the availability will be greater than the 4770, though. I can recall an article saying the 4770's run was extremely limited and short in duration.
Jen Hsun Huang categorically stated that RV770 took NVIDIA by surprise.
/me wants
HD4870 (mine):
HD5870:
Last edited by STaRGaZeR; 09-15-2009 at 10:19 AM.
Friends shouldn't let friends use Windows 7 until Microsoft fixes Windows Explorer (link)
Where has this been stated? I find it hard to believe, Jen Hsun himself being an EE and has been working with chip architectures, I find it hard to believe that they would have been surprised. Maybe they did not expect the 800 SPs core, but clearly they knew it was possibility. And knew it was the reality way sooner than anyone ever speculated about it on these forums.
Facts trump assumptions.
http://www.techpowerup.com/?68634
As I said, the thing they were surprised was the aggressive pricing of the cards. Not the chip(RV770) itself really. Of course it has been possible that they did not expect 800 SPs at first, but it was not like they would(or could, for that matter) have changed their own design due to this.We underestimated the price performance of our competitor’s most recent GPU, which led us to mis-position our fall lineup. The first step of our response was to reset our price to reflect competitive realities. Our action put us again in a strong competitive position but we took hard hits with respect to our overall GPU ASPs and ultimately to our gross margins. The price action was particularly difficult since we are just ramping 55-nanometer and the weak market resulted in taking longer than expected to work through our 65-nanometer inventory.
I am fairly sure that engineers at Nvidia were able to predict the performance of 800 SP chip well enough, so that they could price their cards accordingly. Yhey decided to milk. Of course they did not want to admit it though.
Last edited by Calmatory; 09-15-2009 at 10:33 AM.
Seeing as how RV870 has had final silicon in production since about June/July, they are obviously going to have MORE units available than RV740. Not to mention the fact that RV740 also had a mobile bin. Let's not forget that TSMC actually shut-down 40nm production for a week or two to try and fix the problems.Or a semi-hard launch coupled with months of searching high and low for stock replenishment.
Yes, but remember that there are several more steps involved rather than just announcing additional wafer production. And even 30,000 per month is a paltry number in the grand scheme of things.
The info isn't extrapolated. The HD 4770 situation of stock in the channel at launch followed by very few units available after that was used as an example.
So... no, there will not be less than 40k cards at launch.
Originally Posted by motown_steve
Every genocide that was committed during the 20th century has been preceded by the disarmament of the target population. Once the government outlaws your guns your life becomes a luxury afforded to you by the state. You become a tool to benefit the state. Should you cease to benefit the state or even worse become an annoyance or even a hindrance to the state then your life becomes more trouble than it is worth.
Once the government outlaws your guns your life is forfeit. You're already dead, it's just a question of when they are going to get around to you.
Nope, their underestimation of RV770's "price/performance" translates into their gross underestimation of it, as there's not much left of it to "estimate correctly". Price/Performance estimation requires you to know 1. performance, 2. price.
Nobody, had the faintest clue about it having 800 SPs until the day it was launched and its official specs were put up. "NVIDIA are smart, powerful, brilliant, telepathic and knew everything at ATI" is a frail argument, not supported by anything that went on between Q2~Q3 2008.
Last edited by btarunr; 09-15-2009 at 10:35 AM.
In all reality, we will see what happens in the months after launch. Maybe things will change and maybe they won't. Until that time, nothing is certain.
What we do know is that the performance will be there and it will undoubtedly be extremely popular. Whether production will keep up with demand has yet to be seen.
And for the record, the HD 4770 was never meant to be a limited production production card. It was just hampered by some serious yield issues on the part of TSMC coupled with high demand.
As I said, we will have to see what ends up happening. Beyond that, I can't comment without giving away sources.
Why wouldn't anybody have a clue? Engineers at Nvidia for sure know how much you can fit SP's to a chip while keeping it under the expected/assumed/rumoured die size. AMD planned to have 480 SP chip, but such design would be pad limited if using 256-bit MC which they had to do, so they were able to put more SP's in. Nvidia might not have expected this to happen at first, but for sure knew about this way before than anyone was speculating this on forums.
Regardless of whether they knew about RV770s specs or not, they would not have changed their own design anyway, the only thing they could do was to adjust the pricing, and they decided to milk.
Great way to exaggerate. I was talking about Nvidias chip architects and engineers having a clue about what RV770 might be, what rumours might be true, what to expect from it etc., not about the companies itself. You really seem to want to take this as NVIDIA vs ATI arguing, in that case nothing can come out from this. Thanks, I'm out."NVIDIA are smart, powerful, brilliant, telepathic and knew everything at ATI" is a frail argument, not supported by anything that went on between Q2~Q3 2008.
Last edited by Calmatory; 09-15-2009 at 10:51 AM.
Uh, first of all, maybe instead of throwing out terms such as pad limited, you should realize that 480 would not have been for the RV770. Seeing as how they were on the same 55nm as RV670 which also had a 256-bit memory but *gasp* 320 SP's.... how in the world would 480SP's be pad limited?
The 'experts' built the Titanic as well. Just because they are experts at GPU design doesn't mean that theyThey did overprice their GPUs to milk. The only thing which probably surprised was AMD's aggressive pricing. Not the RV770 chip itself. I remind, they have people working there who have been designing the GPU architectures for some 15 years, if not more. I refuse to believe that random chaps on forums could come up with better guesses/explanations than those people with their expertise.
a) Know exactly what their opposition is going to do
or
b) Know how that opposition will perform
If that were true, then R300 vs. NV30 never would have been a surprise
I can't remember the exact reason behind the pad limit then, if it wasn't the too small die. There was a review or an article about it, and RV770 was supposed to have 480 SPs, but was pad limited so they had "free space" to fill up and slapped 800 SPs to it. GDDR5 uses more pins which caused the bigger die to be pad limited, as far as I can recall.
This.
Isn't the main speculations was that 4770 was forgotten so that the 5xxx series production could be ramped up?
See my answer above.
In addition, the HD 4770 is was still in production (at least in the August / Sept timeframe) with stock still being shipped to distributors.
[/QUOTE]The 'experts' built the Titanic as well. Just because they are experts at GPU design doesn't mean that they
a) Know exactly what their opposition is going to do
or
b) Know how that opposition will perform
If that were true, then R300 vs. NV30 never would have been a surprise[/QUOTE]
+1
That is true , just because you an expert even for 15 or 30 years , Does not give you the power to predict or know about everything .
I mean look at what happened to the Unsinkable ship .
And you have to always remember there is always some one that knows more and better ways to make something than you even if you have been in the business for more than 20 + years . Granted he could also not know what you know .
And I could be wrong but since Nvidia has been top dog and they are all humans , as we are all humans, we tend to underestimate or overestimate our knowledge and skills .
Aside of all of this , man they need to give us some real benchies and such .
: (
Last edited by LC_Nab; 09-15-2009 at 11:28 AM.
Uh you're the one hypothesizing, completely, and pretending to know things "for sure"
At least back your statements like I did. I'll pass.
Play nice folks...
Looks like they spent a little of all that extra power on IQ. Not a bad choice.
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