What would it take to build a cryogenic cooler?

[SoddemFX]

Awesome threads, a continual source of entertainment for all.

Tom

[SexyMF]

A custom built gravity return heat-pipe would do you good. Four heads is fine. You can have the hot side mounted to an oversized HSF combo.

[Shingoshi]

I apologize to all of you for my not doing my homework FIRST! I'm now reading as much as I can find on the assorted topics mentioned here. Your annoyances have been well deserved. And I'm sorry indeed.

A custom built gravity return heat-pipe would do you good. Four heads is fine. You can have the hot side mounted to an oversized HSF combo.

For the sake of clarification, on which component(s) are you suggesting this be applied?

Shingoshi

[[486]]

No problem, I've been known to do the same thing, my posts from a few years ago at hardforum shows this quite well.

1.) The hot end of the vortex tube MUST be completely sealed.
Doing that allows all of the working gas to produce cold.
2.) The hot end MUST dump all of it's heat into a heatpipe.

How does this even work? If the hot end was sealed no heat would transfer from it, as no air would move in it.

[Postal Dude]

He's suggesting that another form of cooling be attached to the hot side of the vortex tube. So that the cold air gets fed out the cold side, followed by the 'hot' air which has been cooled by another coing device attached to the hot side of the vortex tube.

This would no work as the vortex used to extract heat from the air in the first place cannot be formed unless the hot air is allowed to escape from the hot side

[Shingoshi]

How does this even work? If the hot end was sealed no heat would transfer from it, as no air would move in it.

See this link which I posted above. There has already been research done on this for testing purposes.
Closed Hot End Studies
But here's where I'm headed with this. Adjust the vortex tube to produce it's highest efficiency in cold gas production, and attach a coiled (or straight) tube to the end of it. It would have the appearance of the windings all of you use for capillary tubes. The refrigerant will now move into the coiled (or straight) end which will act as your heat-sink. But by the coiled (or straight) tube being blocked, the vapor in the tube should cool and return to the vortex tube.

Right now you caught me in the middle of researching this through. I said before that there needs to be a heat-sink attached to the vortex tube. I was thinking of how the Koolance LN2 evaporator works. Let's say we drilled a hole into the base of something like that device and passed the end of the vortex tube through it. Making sure that the device was sealed/brazed, it can now be used as the evaporator for this purpose. I said all of that to say we need a cooling jacket around the end of our vortex tube. But instead of using a mixture of acetone and dry ice, we'll use benzene acetone and butane. The mixture of benzene and acetone I believe is azeotropic. And both of these dissolve butane. Our azeotrope in this situation is for the absorption of the butane. What we will end up with is an absorption refrigerator, where the vortex tube is the heat source (instead of a flame as is commonly done). If the boiling point of that azeotrope is too low, we could likely use acetone and acetic acid (commonly known as vinegar).

The azeotrope will allow the butane to evaporate, causing the liquid to cool. That is the means of our thermosiphon/heatpipe. There is no further need for input energy, since we are using what would have been energy wasted by the vortex tube.

Once the refrigerant is cooled in the length of the coiled (or straight) tube, it will have nowhere else to go but back into the vortex tube itself. Forgive me. I've just combined two separate ideas in one description. Sorry for the confusion I know I have caused here. So let's try and clarify. I went back and edited this to help.

I don't know yet which is the better structure for the heat-sink. Whether is should be coiled like a capillary or straight. I'm questioning whether the vortex flow would be interrupted or decelerated by the coil itself. A straight tube seems to be better. But the only thing that does matter here, is that the refrigerant is not allowed to escape from the vortex tube's hot end. That refrigerant must have all of it's heat drawn off and returned to the main flow.

And this won't be as much of an issue as it seems. Because I've already stated the refrigerant needs to be cooled before entering the vortex tube inlet. But I have modified that idea even further. What I'm thinking now, is not to try and replace what we expect from our refrigeration cycle, but to simply augment it. So our refrigerant flow would work as follows:
1.) Condenser
2.) TXV or capillary tube.
3.) Vortex tube
4.) Heat-exchanger (vortex tube directly connected here)

Since the evaporator already absorbs heat from the object to be cooled, the vortex tube can augment that function. The vortex tube will make our refrigerant even colder than it would have been before. We simply drive the now extra cold refrigerant from the vortex tube into our heat-exchanger.

I hope that makes sense. If not, I know some of you will point it out.

Shingoshi

[SexyMF]

I was meaning you could make your own heat-pipe heatsink to go onto the CPUs. Of course it isn't super cool, but it is custom.

[ultralo1]

1.) Condenser
2.) TXV or capillary tube.
3.) Vortex tube
4.) Heat-exchanger (vortex tube directly connected here)

What size TXV or cap tube?
What refrigerant?
How many CFM at what pressure do you need fro the vortex to operate?
How many CFM do yo anticipate through the HX?
WIth the "hot" end of the vortex tube sealed, how are you going to get enogh "hot exhaust" to have flow? Dont tell me that the heat sink will be enough, It wont.

I am not asking these questions to help you along with your "project". I am asking you these questions to show you that you are missing some basic understanding of refrigeration. You should stop using your superior google fu for this advanced cooling system and put it to work on your basic understanding of refrigeration. If you dont believe me when I tell you that you need this, then please start buying parts and assembling this unit. Then you can tell me I was wrong.

Here it is in BIG Letters

Crawl, Walk, Run

You are trying to do a marathon at this time.

[Shingoshi]

What size TXV or cap tube?
What refrigerant?
1.) How many CFM at what pressure do you need fro the vortex to operate?
2.) How many CFM do yo anticipate through the HX?
3.) WIth the "hot" end of the vortex tube sealed, how are you going to get enogh "hot exhaust" to have flow? Dont tell me that the heat sink will be enough, It wont.

I am not asking these questions to help you along with your "project". I am asking you these questions to show you that you are missing some basic understanding of refrigeration. You should stop using your superior google fu for this advanced cooling system and put it to work on your basic understanding of refrigeration. If you dont believe me when I tell you that you need this, then please start buying parts and assembling this unit. Then you can tell me I was wrong.

Here it is in BIG Letters

Crawl, Walk, Run

You are trying to do a marathon at this time.

I listed the above strictly as an abstraction. It's simply a flowchart.

Answer #1:
Vortex tubes are available in numerous sizes for different capacities.

Answer #2:
The CFM rate through the HX will depend on the capacity of my compressor chain. The simple answer is, all of my refrigerant will pass through the HX.
[IMG=http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5505/dsc00011kds.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8661/dsc00012ikv.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.th.jpg]

Answer #3:
Take a look at the image here. You'll all notice the vortex tube has a 30mm inner diameter.

Now notice that tests were done on plugs ranging in size from 26 to 30mm. That means the tube was tested completely blocked at 30mm. That was done to establish a baseline for comparison.

Figure 4 shows the cold mass fractions when different plugs were tested. In
this figure, Ap/At is the ratio between plug area and tube cross section area. As it is
seen the cold mass fraction increases from 0.17 to 1 when Ap/At changes from
0.75 to 1 which is the result of varying the plug diameter from 26mm to 30mm.

That 1 at the extreme right indicates the plug condition when completely blocked.

Did you bother to download any of the documents I listed above?
So if you don't mind, I'll get back to my google fu now!

Shingoshi

[ultralo1]

Speaking only in generalities

BUt you want exact details from the members here. IE

But now let me ask this.
1.) Were you afraid of splitting the vortex tubes?
2.) Did the cooling effect increase with inlet pressure?
3.) Were the driers or the tubes icing up internally?
4.) Was this tested in a closed-loop? Or were you letting the air escape to atmosphere?
5.) Did you use a heat-sink on the hot end? I've read that's what you're supposed to do.
6.) Was the freezing due to moisture in the air supply? Because a closed-loop would have no moisture in it.
7.) Were the vortex tubes exposed to the ambient atmosphere?
8.) Did you make any attempt to insulate the vortex tubes?
9.) Did you make any attempt to precool the inlet temperature?
10.) What would happen by cooling your air supply through a HX?
11.) What about using a gas like Helium?

Why should we answer your questions when our questions get answered "Speaking only in generalities". Believe it or not people here will actually help you build this thing if you will actually stop posting and start brazing. Show some progress or else it is a waste of our time trying to help you. This entire thread is nothing more than your "My ideas are good" thread.

I listed the above strictly as an abstraction. It's simply a flowchart

No it is not "simply a flow chart" it was a BASIC parts diagram in writing. Finally we could actually visualize where you were going to put the vortex tube in the loop. Since you want give us a schematic, because you dont have an app for it, and all you are giving anybody is stock downloaded photos, how is anybody supposed to follow what you are doing? You keep giving "downloadable links" thinking that we want to do the amount of research you have. WE DONT. If you have noticed that the person doing the most posting in your thread is you, then you might be the only one extremely interested in this.

Bottom line,
If you want help, stop posting, start building. Then people will flock over here to help and give encouragement. Until then be prepared to be a source of amusement for others.

Regards,
ME

[sdumper]

Bottom line,
If you want help, stop posting, start building. Then people will flock over here to help and give encouragement. Until then be prepared to be a source of amusement for others.

Regards,
ME

Amen brother

[Naja002]

Personally, I would like you to stop editing your posts (#31, 56, 59) plus at [H]F and deal with this issue here:

Post #53--http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034511180&postcount=53

If you have time for all this BS....then you have time to prove you accusation or admit your mistake. Right now, you are looking pretty slimy....

[Naja002]

Nice of you to come online, edit post #59 and not have any response, reply.....nothing. Nothing over at [H]F either. Your true character is coming out....

[Naja002]

And again on #59 now at 6:06pm. You got time for this....You got time to straight out the issue....

[Shingoshi]

You want me to start building (so you can have something to look at) without knowing what the parameters of the system must be before doing so. That helps a lot. I'm sure I would never succeed without advice like this.
[IMG=http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.th.jpg]

Shingoshi

[teyber]

yer man as ultralow said, so many people have been in the forums over the years with big ideas and big projects and 99% of them don't happen so people tend to not get too interested. Once people start to think that you are actually going to build this, you will see a lot more help, a more interest, and a lot less criticism. And then you could shut the criticism up with your finished product.

Just peice of advice, pretty much just re-wording what ultralo1 said

[Naja002]

You want me to start building (so you can have something to look at) without knowing what the parameters of the system must be before doing so. That helps a lot. I'm sure I would never succeed without advice like this.
[IMG=http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.th.jpg]

Shingoshi

Thank You, Shingoshi. I will take your lack of desire to prove your claim as exactly what it is: You Can't.

And I will take your lack of desire to step up to the plate and admit your mistake as a simple showing of what a Cowardly POS you really are.

You have been fully active on both forums. You are fully aware of the situation. Your actions speak for themselves. Thank You.

[eligray]

To be honest man, I get the impression that you don't know how all of these theoretical scientific principles would actually apply to your system.

If I started throwing around all sorts of physics terms when asking advice on how to boil an egg, it would make people roll their eyes.

Can you let us know WHY you want to change the proven effective approach to refrigeration?

[Shingoshi]

These are the liquid-cooling parts from my quad-socket build which this new system is going to replace.
[IMG=http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9716/starbase64sq18cpx.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3843/dsc00017r.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1033/dsc00018rxr.th.jpg]

Shingoshi

[ultralo1]

You want me to start building without knowing what the parameters of the system must be before doing so. That helps a lot. I'm sure I would never succeed without advice like this.
[IMG=http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.th.jpg]

Shingoshi

We are back to Crawl, Walk, RUN.

For example if you would go ahead and built the systems, minus the vortex tubes, you have accomplished several things:
1; gained an understanding of the basic system
2: Gained a proven test bed for your expirements
3: Gained a base line of performance to compare future changes to
4: Learn how to select the correct components for the basic system

You already have the most of the major components for a basic system. So build it. That would get past the Crawl and walk. Once you have done this then changing the system over to the vortex will be simple for you.

(so you can have something to look at)

Not on your best day. You aint that good and never will be.

[Shingoshi]

How can a vortex tube work properly if the refrigerant is condensing inside the tube? Surely that would screw up the mechanics of the vortex, no?

This was found inside one of the files I posted here for others to read.

In 1988 Balmer [19] applied liquid water as the working medium. It was found that when
the inlet pressure is high, for instance 20∼50 bar, the energy separation effect still exists. So
it proves that the energy separation process exists in incompressible vortex flow as well.

In 1979 steam was used as working medium by Takahama [17]. In 1979, two-phase propane
was used as the working medium by Collins [18]. It was found that when the degree of
dryness1 of the liquid and gaseous propane is higher than 0.80, a significant temperature
difference maintains. With two-phase working medium, the degree of dryness is an important
parameter, when the degree of dryness is larger than some critical value, energy separation
occurs.

This states that the dryness of the gas is essential. So compressed gas like that used in scuba tanks is necessary for the proper testing of vortex tubes. Any other method will only produce the results as described by one of the posters here.

Tests were actually done with particulate solids in oil. The vortex tube is very versatile indeed.

Shingoshi
Further information of interest:
Non-freezing vortex tube
This one's just for fun!!
VORTEX TUBE LASER
And directly to the point of cryogenics
Cryogenic computer system with parallel multiple cooling temperatures
And I think this is what I was ultimately looking for!
Double inlet arrangement for pulse tube refrigerator with vortex heat exchanger

[sdumper]

This is a fun thread to watch but I'm loosing interest.

[ultralo1]

This is a fun thread to watch but I'm loosing interest.

Kinda like watching a train wreck.

I just cant figure out if its in slo mo or loop

[sdumper]

Kinda like watching a train wreck.

I just cant figure out if its in slo mo or loop

I vote for loop

[Shingoshi]

The following research and patent proves the idea that I've stated. That using the heat of the vortex tube can be applied in a practical manner to assist in the actual cooling process. The heat of the vortex tube is used to drive a pulse refrigeration cycle.
This is what I was ultimately looking for!
Double inlet arrangement for pulse tube refrigerator with vortex heat exchanger
The heat and sound are combined to produce a rapid compression/decompression wave in a chamber. That alternating wave functions like a sterling engine, but with no moving parts. The result is the heated gas is cooled and sent back into the vortex tube. This is a common feedback device. AND IT WORKS!!

Shingoshi