Instead of sucking a bunch of hot air, try this bong instead!

[denice25]

wow, that's awesome...

[Shingoshi]

wow, that's awesome...

I don't know what part of this thread was awesome to you. Whether it was just my last post, or the entire thread. Please explain, and especially how this helps you.

Shingoshi

[Naja002]

I think of PVC welding as a form of gluing. But I may be wrong there too. The fact is, I want NO heat sources near this case. Especially not open flames.

You missed what I said here. I said I'm thinking of NOT trying to obtain sub-zero temperatures. Some of the stuff you've said elsewhere really hit home. I understood what you were saying, and took it into account. So I'm trying to be more pragmatic about the capabilities of the build. The realities of economics are substantially influential here. I get it.

No. I don't expect to get sub-zero temperatures from using low-pressure boiling. I know that's how it's achieved in refrigeration systems. But this is an entirely different beast.

As far as ultrasonics go, I'm not sure about that either. Not because it would be difficult, but because it brings a whole new level of cost to the project. Although, ultrasonics in the form of humidifiers can be brought cheaply on the internet. You really wouldn't need too many of them to contribute to the liquid's cavitation.

Shingoshi

Shingoshi, You really should not edit your posts after they have been replied to..... Spelling, grammar--that's one thing. But adding or subtracting to a post after the discussion moved on is the wrong thing to do. Anything that changes the post or part of it--is the wrong thing to do. Adding or subtracting emphasis can be ok--as long as it doesn't change the overall impact of the statement/post.

If you've read the thread well, you will see that Mazzei Injectors will increase the flow of liquid in your system. There's one model in particular which I think most builders can use without modification to their systems. That model is the #484. It has 1/2" MPT fittings on both the intake and outlet of the injector. The suction port is 1/4" MPT. With those fittings, just about anyone can use this.

So the challenge is to get one, and see how much your temperatures drop as a result of the increased flow through your system. It will increase your flow 5 times over what you have now!

Just search for "Mazzei Injector #484". You could even do a product search for quick results.

MAKE SURE TO USE 1/2" BRAIDED PVC TUBING, AND RADIATOR HOSE CLAMPS!!
Like the kind you would get from Lowe's.

Good Luck!
Shingoshi

The challenge is not to get others to "test" your theories and components for you. The challenge is for you to put your theories together and make them reality.

[Shingoshi]

As you already noticed, we were posting almost simultaneously. And sometimes when I'm posting a correction, you're already answering it, before I have a chance to see what you've posted in response to something I intended to correct. That's just the nature of the beast. Best advice would be to let me have more time to look over my posts, to make sure that I'm really satisfied with them. If you see that I've just posted something, you could let more time lapse before responding. Otherwise, the condition will remain.

And once again. There's nothing theoretical about injectors and their operation. I don't need to prove them to you or anyone else. That's already been done by several industries which use them on a daily and constant basis. So stop calling something that's reality, theory. You would be better off just to say you don't understand how they work. Because if you did understand how they work, you would stop calling them theories.

Since nearly 40 minutes have passed since I saw this being posted, I should be safe.

Shingoshi

[Naja002]

As you already noticed, we were posting almost simultaneously. And sometimes when I'm posting a correction, you're already answering it, before I have a chance to see what you've posted in response to something I intended to correct. That's just the nature of the beast. Best advice would be to let me have more time to look over my posts, to make sure that I'm really satisfied with them. If you see that I've just posted something, you could let more time lapse before responding. Otherwise, the condition will remain.

Yes, we were both posting. I pointed that out in my post. The core of what I was saying is valid, but the instance is my mistake. For some reason I though you edited it this afternoon (PM) not 10 minutes after the OP (AM). So, Yes, my mistake.

And once again. There's nothing theoretical about injectors and their operation. I don't need to prove them to you or anyone else. That's already been done by several industries which use them on a daily and constant basis. So stop calling something that's reality, theory. You would be better off just to say you don't understand how they work. Because if you did understand how they work, you would stop calling them theories.

Since nearly 40 minutes have passed since I saw this being posted, I should be safe.

I understand how they work from another hobby, different application. The theory part comes in that they will operate and provide the result that you are seeking in your application. It's not just about the venturi's, it's about making the whole thing work--by your design.

The challenge statement was not about the venturi's specifically. It was about any of the components. Venturi, pump, res's, plumbing, whatever. This is your grand theory. Your big puzzle, so put the pieces together and show us the picture. Not a big deal. You've been working on this for what? 2yrs now?

[Shingoshi]

I found this image on the net. I keep looking for better images. I'm currently settled on using one of the two injectors in the 2" nozzle size. This is an image of it.

Just tonight, I came up with an ingenious method for mounting both of my reservoirs and two injectors, ALL on a SINGLE connection. I just had to choose the right part. I'm also hoping that Mazzei actually has transparent versions available for sale. I've seen (demo?) images of them, but don't know if they're for sale. Transparent injectors in operation would be a blast!

Shingoshi

[Dark Bishop]

ugh, to much tech, not enough pictures lol.

i actually read most of it.

cool anyway.

[wdrzal]

Your "Mazzei " is just a simple single stage venturi tube using Bernoulli's principles . You need .5 psi (absolute pressure) to boil water @~80F. Even the best venturi tubes won't get you there. There are are a lot of venturi calculators on the web if you want to do the math first before you buy a mazzei that won't boil water. Search under:venturi,venturi tube,aspirator,venturi tube simulation,venturi tube flow calculator.

BTW: water is a refrigerant

[Holst]

If you've read the thread well, you will see that Mazzei Injectors will increase the flow of liquid in your system. There's one model in particular which I think most builders can use without modification to their systems. That model is the #484. It has 1/2" MPT fittings on both the intake and outlet of the injector. The suction port is 1/4" MPT. With those fittings, just about anyone can use this.

So the challenge is to get one, and see how much your temperatures drop as a result of the increased flow through your system. It will increase your flow 5 times over what you have now!

Just search for "Mazzei Injector #484". You could even do a product search for quick results.

MAKE SURE TO USE 1/2" BRAIDED PVC TUBING, AND RADIATOR HOSE CLAMPS!!
Like the kind you would get from Lowe's.

Good Luck!
Shingoshi

Can you explain further how this will work ?

[Shingoshi]

Your "Mazzei " is just a simple single stage venturi tube using Bernoulli's principles . You need .5 psi (absolute pressure) to boil water @~80F. Even the best venturi tubes won't get you there. There are are a lot of venturi calculators on the web if you want to do the math first before you buy a mazzei that won't boil water. Search under:venturi,venturi tube,aspirator,venturi tube simulation,venturi tube flow calculator.

BTW: water is a refrigerant

Geez! That's good to know. Or bad, if your hopes were for success! But that's ok. One thing's for certain, they will increase the flow of my liquid through the system. But then again, I'm probably going way beyond reason. I do that too often. Guilty as charged...

Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

Can you explain further how this will work ?

I MADE A MAJOR MISTAKE HERE WHICH I AM NOW CORRECTING!
I FORGOT TO SAY WHAT THE PLACEMENT OF THE PUMP SHOULD BE.
Thanks to Holst for catching this mistake!

If you have an injector, you install it in this manner:

1.) Install a Tee connector (by cutting the hose between the pump and the reservoir) in the outlet line leading from your reservoir.
2.) Using the tee connector, splice your coolant line to the pump back together.

The final result should look like this:
RESERVOIR > TEE > PUMP > INJECTOR
The suction from the injector, should come straight from the TEE.
The line from the TEE should bypass the pump. (Hopefully, this corrects my oversight!)

3.) Attach a new hose (long enough to reach the injector) to the branch of the tee connector.
4.) Attach the inline outlet of the tee connector to the inlet of the injector.
5.) Attach the suction port of the injector (somewhere in the middle) to the branch of your tee connector.
6.) Attach the outlet of the injector to the inlet of the cpu(s).

I'm debating whether the line from the reservoir going to the tee connector should be the straight section of the tee, or the branch. The reason is, the injector is going to pull more liquid through the suction port than it's inlet port. The inlet port only provides the initial flow. But all of the power comes from the suction port. So after thinking about this further, the line that leads from the reservoir should be at right angles to the line that leads out to the injector. Because the line going to the suction port should have no restriction on it.

Installation is now completed.

The injector will now suck additional water from the reservoir into the coolant stream, boosting the amount of pressure and volume in the flow.

I hope that fully explains it.

Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

Here's the page on Wikipedia that covers the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_evaporation
I'll now start researching the data on this. Instead of making erroneous assumptions.

I just found the following links and am reading them now (I will extend the list as more come available):
1.) http://www.lenntech.com/Chemistry/vacuum.htm
2.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapora...ct_evaporators
3.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_evaporation
4.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor-liquid_separator
5.) http://process-equipment.globalspec....uum_Generators

Thanks!
Shingoshi

[Holst]

I think you have made a mistake.

Although the injector will suck up some extra water through the tubing it will also add a restriction to the system.

Im not sure what effect this will have on your cooling ability but im 100% sure there will be no increase in flowrate.
The pump is still providing all the pressure differential in the system, all you have done is added an extra restriction.



However...

Your idea of building a vacuum based evaporative cooler is better but using an injector to create the vacuum wont work (as you wont be able to make much of a vacuume using an injector and it will add restriction to your cooling loop)
By using a vacuum you could make a bong cooler more efficient. It may also be possible to use an injector to try and seperate the water vapor out to keep room humidity down (ive not given this much thought so I may be wrong)

[Shingoshi]

I began thinking about creating the equivalent of a MULTIPLE-EFFECT EVAPORATOR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evapora...ct_evaporators
I was thinking that if one injector alone can't do the job, why not cascade them. I don't know if that's possible, because I don't know how much vacuum a single venturi can generate, to know how many would be required to accomplish this.

I don't know enough about this. I really need to do more checking. However, you really should have looked at this page (or one like it):
http://www.mazzei.net/products/injector_info.htm
Unless I'm missing your point, I think that should explain this better than I could.

Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

Now that I've looked at your diagram, I see a good representation for others to follow. What you're missing is that the fluid passing through the venturi in the injector has it's velocity substantially increased. It is the increase of that velocity that provides the increase in flow. It might seem like some sort of Voodoo. But it really works. If you want, you can always use a separate line from the reservoir. Or you can use two reservoirs. In either case, you need larger lines to accommodate the flow. That just makes sense. If the flow is restricted, REMOVE THE RESTRICTION.

Shingoshi

Ok! I got smiley happy!

[Holst]

A picture speaks a thousand words

Its worth remembering that you could use a rotary fan to create a much higher vacuum than you can with you venturi's without adding any restriction to the pumping system.

[Shingoshi]

I left out the part of putting the pump BETWEEN tee connection and the injector. That was really a bad oversight on my part.

Sorry for the confusion. I will now edit my previous post to correct it.

Thank you!
Shingoshi

[Holst]

Now that I've looked at your diagram, I see a good representation for others to follow. What you're missing is that the fluid passing through the venturi in the injector has it's velocity substantially increased. It is the increase of that velocity that provides the increase in flow. It might seem like some sort of Voodoo. But it really works. If you want, you can always use a separate line from the reservoir. Or you can use two reservoirs. In either case, you need larger lines to accommodate the flow. That just makes sense. If the flow is restricted, REMOVE THE RESTRICTION.

Shingoshi

Ok! I got smiley happy!

But the restriction IS the injector.

Try thinking about it this way..

The T splits the water from the resevoire into two streams.

Your injector will produce a vacume and suck extra water through the lower pipe.

However it does this by creating a restriction in the upper pipe.

The overall flowrate WILL be reduced when compared to a system without any of this stuff!!!

[Holst]

I left out the part of putting the pump BETWEEN tee connection and the injector. That was really a bad oversight on my part.

Sorry for the confusion. I will now edit my previous post to correct it.

Thank you!
Shingoshi

That definately wont work as the pump will push water the wrong way down the injector and back into the inlet of the pump.

Although flowrate through the pump might increase flow through the CPU will decrease.

The water will take the path of least resistance.

[Shingoshi]

Please see my correction of the first post on this subject.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...8&postcount=36

That definately wont work as the pump will push water the wrong way down the injector and back into the inlet of the pump.

Although flowrate through the pump might increase flow through the CPU will decrease.

The water will take the path of least resistance.

I think my correction now addresses your concern. If not, look at the link for the Mazzei injectors. You may get a better understanding then of how this works. And if I still made a mistake, point it out then.

Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

Taking into account my corrected instructions. Please show how the pump should be installed in the proper location of the line. The TEE should be between the RESERVOIR and the PUMP. The PUMP should be between the TEE and the INJECTOR.

I'm really sorry for this confusion, and I'm really glad you caught it. And early too, I might add. Very good observation.

Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

That definately wont work as the pump will push water the wrong way down the injector and back into the inlet of the pump.

Although flowrate through the pump might increase flow through the CPU will decrease.

The water will take the path of least resistance.

I think you're still missing the point here:
INJECTORS ONLY DIRECT THEIR FLOW FORWARD (from the outlet), NOT BACKWARD (through the suction port).
The suction port is called that, because it causes suction to exist. The suction port provides no external pressure, and therefore cannot return fluid to the source. You would have to completely BLOCK the flow from the injector's outlet for the injector to stop working. Then and only then would you see backflow. And that's simply not going to happen.

[Plan.B]

hot air? I use ice cubes. Nice work on your build Shin. Pics!

[Shingoshi]

hot air? I use ice cubes. Nice work on your build Shin. Pics!

I specifically want a 24/7 system here that runs unattended. No method of cooling other than that provide by the system itself, would be acceptable.

And I don't have pictures, because I keep having to change my design. That's part of the benefit of posting here. Others catch my mistakes, before I've spent money (for parts) on a useless endeavor.

Shingoshi

[Plan.B]

that was a joke based upon the title of the thread...