AC to plateHX Chiller Conversion...56K Warning!

[Shingoshi]

This is a very interesting project.
I hope I am not too annoying with too many questions.
What is the Significance of 56K warning in the title?
Someone suggested to me that there is a solder suitable for SS.
Mfg: Harris Brand Name: Stay Silver 15 and Stay Silver Flux. Does anyone have any experience with this?
I guess brazing is preferred to solder?
Can anyone comment on the concerns relating to the selection of a brazed plate HX?
The main concern may be that you have the same or better heat transfer.
Can you have too much heat transfer?
The brazed plate HX seems to be much smaller in volume, is this a concern?

The brazed plate is an extension of the fin and plate design. The major advantage here is it's surface area. The brazed plate design simply transfers an enormous amount of heat in a very small package. The only thing that could be better, would be one with more plates. You won't get any better than this design. It's used in many industrial applications by corporations for which money is NOT a constraint. If there was better, they'd be using it.

Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

If it is 400 microns or below you are good to go. If it is above 400 then vacuum somemore.

And most of all, I HATE vacuuming!!

Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

I think you might find it interesting:
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.ph...2&postcount=92

Also, have you considered using the principles of an autocascade in the implementation of this system? It just seems like an interesting way to maximize the efficiencies of all your work.

Still loving what you do!

Shingoshi

[Naja002]

Still loving what you do!

Shingoshi

Thanx!


Just ordered some ball valves so I can "isolate" the supco VG64. If it does not leak then I can start checking the hoses, etc. Something is wrong here and there's really no way for me to tell until I can find out if the VG64 is leaking or not.

Plus the ball valves will come in handy anyway.

[Shingoshi]

I think someone posted this in one of my threads for me to see. I think you should look at this. This is one intense piece of information.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=144007

Cool deep, and chill out!

Shingoshi

[Naja002]

I don't currently have the knowledge or experience to deal with cascades or autocascades, Shingoshi. They are a lot more technical then what I am currently doing. It's not as simple as adding another compressor or mixing gases.

[Shingoshi]

I don't currently have the knowledge or experience to deal with cascades or autocascades, Shingoshi. They are a lot more technical then what I am currently doing. It's not as simple as adding another compressor or mixing gases.

I'm just looking around to see how much trouble I can really get myself into. As though I don't have enough to worry about!

Shingoshi

[Naja002]

Trust me--I know....

[Shingoshi]

I love Wikipedia. It makes me feel like the kid I was sitting in the library pouring through research materials. Yeah, I'd rather be there than out playing.

But this is what makes me excited now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_refrigerator

I've been looking for ways to adapt this into powered systems, to lower the expense of the power used. It's just an interesting alternative that I continue to explore.

And then of course, there are Vortex tubes, and wondering how they could be added into a refrigerant system. Somewhere in the proximity of the evaporator, and dumping the heat off to the condenser.

Shingoshi

[Robanada]

Hey man, this looks like it might be a solution for me, but I'm really, really concerned about noise. I want to keep the noise level for the chiller down to <30 dB, if possible.. in the video where you were cutting of the shaft..it was really loud- is it always that loud? What, exactly, is making all the noise? If its the fan- couldn't we replace it with some quieter case fans? If its the compressor, can we put some acoustic foam around it or anything? Or would any of that stuff have adverse effects on the system?

Thanks!

[Naja002]

I love Wikipedia. It makes me feel like the kid I was sitting in the library pouring through research materials. Yeah, I'd rather be there than out playing.

But this is what makes me excited now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_refrigerator

I've been looking for ways to adapt this into powered systems, to lower the expense of the power used. It's just an interesting alternative that I continue to explore.

And then of course, there are Vortex tubes, and wondering how they could be added into a refrigerant system. Somewhere in the proximity of the evaporator, and dumping the heat off to the condenser.

Shingoshi

Shingoshi, I'm working on a project here--a specific project. Start a new thread to discuss this stuff. All this can do is derail this thread here. I have and will need help with this and I don't want those requests difficult for others to find.

Hey man, this looks like it might be a solution for me, but I'm really, really concerned about noise. I want to keep the noise level for the chiller down to <30 dB, if possible.. in the video where you were cutting of the shaft..it was really loud- is it always that loud? What, exactly, is making all the noise? If its the fan- couldn't we replace it with some quieter case fans? If its the compressor, can we put some acoustic foam around it or anything? Or would any of that stuff have adverse effects on the system?

Thanks!

Turn off your speakers and it becomes whisper quiet. Honestly, there's no way for you to know what level to set your speakers at...and there's no way for me to tell you. Also, the mic on my camera seems to pick up sound very well. In addition to that, it was no more than 1ft. away from the fan motor, so it sounds a heck of a lot louder than it really is. It's designed to pick up voices at how many feet away? It's no louder than an average 5K btu AC and without the front fan--it's automatically quieter.

30db? I don't know what the average db is on a small window AC, but 30 sounds awfully low. Mine should be pretty quiet by the time I'm done, but I'm in no position to guess the db.

[Robanada]

Hehe, I wish...
I was hoping you might have a case fan or something to use as a reference =p

[Naja002]

Ok, the ball valves are here and the results are not good, so You tell me:

The Setup--Vacuum pump> Short hose>Ball valve>SupcoVG64>Ball valve:






Here is a video (~2min) that shows the deal (apologies for the blurriness)-check your volume:





I think the Supco needs to be RMAed, or would a cleaning fix this?

EDIT: Did the 10 sec alcohol cleaning per the instructions. Doing the overnight alcohol cleaning now, and waiting to hear back from you guys!

Hehe, I wish...
I was hoping you might have a case fan or something to use as a reference =p

No such luck. This room sounds like a sever room anyway with all the fans going. The noise really doesn't bother me. I don't realize how much noise there is--until I shut everything down...then it gets eerily quiet.

[ultralo1]

I think RMAing the VG64 is the next step. I would try one more time, this time take the second ball valve off and cap the end of the VG64. No need to pull 10 min vac. Just let it go down to 50 microns then valve off. If it losses vac again then it is the gauge.

It looks like you got a good vac pump, it can pull 50 microns. Change the oil regularly and it will stay a good one.

[Naja002]

I think RMAing the VG64 is the next step. I would try one more time, this time take the second ball valve off and cap the end of the VG64. No need to pull 10 min vac. Just let it go down to 50 microns then valve off. If it losses vac again then it is the gauge.

Got it! Thanx

It looks like you got a good vac pump, it can pull 50 microns. Change the oil regularly and it will stay a good one.

I was suprised to see it down to 23 microns! I'm going to finish testing this VG64 and then change the oil. It's got a good dozen hours or more on it now since I've had it. It gets pretty hot. I set a small fan to blow on it, but it still gets pretty toasty. I'm assuming that's normal and 1 of the reasons why the oil needs changed so often in these things?

[Shingoshi]

I was asking if things could be introduced into the current project, while it's still not completed, to increase the efficiencies here. But you're right. Sorry.

Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

Since I believe condensation is better removed from any cooling consideration, I think this thread applies to anyone who wants to maximize the lowest temperatures they can achieve.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...t=condensation

This will hopefully help anyone interested in having the absolute best cooling without any limitations. At least it will be a starting point for examination.

Shingoshi

[Naja002]

Did the 10 sec shake cleaning on the VG64 yesterday, and then an "overnight". With the ball valve/cap setup (not 2 ball valves) it went from 50microns to 1050 and held for ~20mins. That's an definite improvement. Not sure what it means though. So, I just did a couple more 10 sec shake cleanings and set it up for a few/several hr cleaning again. So, we'll see if that offers any further improvement.

I'm not quite sure how this type of cleaning would correct the apparent problem, but there's an instructions addendum that states:

"90% of the vacuum gauge warranty returns that Supco receives are due to contaminated sensors. For vacuum gauges that are "Heavily" contaminated with oil or other contaminants, Supco has found that leaving the alcohol in the gauge overnight will clean the sensor more effectively."


It DID get it to hold a vacuum of ~900 microns (up from 50, 100, ??? ) on 2 or 3 occasions.....mixed in with all of the behavior in the video above. That's why I was so ready to accept the hoses as probable culprit. But 5 hoses, 2 ball valves, multiple caps....? Anyway () in consideration of this:

A vacuum pump is not designed to hold a vacuum once it is turned off, in fact it will let the pumps oil be pulled into the charging hoses.

The issue may very well be from the vacuum pump oil. I genuinely hope that it is. I can fix that here and save more wasted time and hassle.

We'll see.....

[ultralo1]

Here is a decent link to "how it works".

http://www.belljar.net/tcgauge.htm

I use contact cleaner when I need to clean mine.

Again vacuum leaks are a PITA. It doesnt take much of a leak to lose vacuum. Also check your hose seals, and posibly flush the little hose. If it has ever had oil in it the oil has to out gas before a vacuum is held. Also new hoses have to out gas also. Maybe pull an over night vacuum on the setup.

Here is what I use.

[Naja002]

Here is a decent link to "how it works".

http://www.belljar.net/tcgauge.htm

I use contact cleaner when I need to clean mine.

Again vacuum leaks are a PITA. It doesnt take much of a leak to lose vacuum. Also check your hose seals, and posibly flush the little hose. If it has ever had oil in it the oil has to out gas before a vacuum is held. Also new hoses have to out gas also. Maybe pull an over night vacuum on the setup.

Here is what I use.

Ok,Thank You once again. Here's what's gone on and a silly question:


I did a "few" more of the 10 sec cleanings. A several hr cleaning and a couple more 10 sec cleanings. I pulled a 50 micron vac, it went up to around 1000 microns. I left it for 1.5 hrs and it held at 1200 microns. I still have it sealed, but removed from the vac pump. I've started an overnight vac on the AC setup as suggested in order to help degas the hoses, etc.

The manifold held a vac for over 24hrs. It did lose a wee bit, but that amounts to from center-right of the 30 mark to center-left of the 30 mark. Maybe it lost vac, maybe it was ambient temp change.....

1 question that may seem silly is: How tight are these fittings supposed to be connected? I have gotten in the habit of cranking them completely down. But I realize from past experiences in life that some times that's not the right thing to do. I have also tried looser--to the point were it holds a vac during vacing--but with all this leakage.....I'm really wondering if I am doing the right thing or just damaging the seals....?

[Shingoshi]

Because I don't have much left. And by now, if I were you, it would all be gone!! I really hope you can get this thing to work. I empathize fully!

Shingoshi

[ultralo1]

How tight are these fittings supposed to be connected

Hand tight will usually do. If you want it tighter then go about a half turn with pliers.

[Naja002]

Hand tight will usually do. If you want it tighter then go about a half turn with pliers.

Ok, cool, Thanx. I've been doing it completely as stated above. The only way I can get them any tighter is to break out the vice grips. Seriously though. Just wanted to make sure that I wasn't damaging the seals or seats.


It seems to be getting better with cleaning and long soaks, so I am going to keep at it. With these ball valves though I can definitely get it vac'ed good and charged. Working on some other stuff right now. Which leads me to another question:

For the water plumbing: Sweat or braze? I want this to be able to do sub-zero, so is sweat good enough....or do I need to braze it (15% for copper to copper)...?

[[XC] Hicks121]

Doing a fine job brother!! You just amaze me more & more.

[ultralo1]

With these ball valves though I can definitely get it vac'ed good and charged.

I believe you are correct.

Solder should be fine for the water connections