Test report Apogee GTZ vs. Koolance 350 vs. HeatKiller 3.0

[santiagodraco]

Not just trying to counter the results but pretty much bashing the product and company. It's been going on a lot around here by a select few who seem to have an agenda. The GTZ isn't a #$%^ing thermaltake product we're talking about over here. Even if it isn't the best amongst the i7 blocks, it's within a couple degrees MAX of the best. Hardly the type of numbers that would call for bashing, some with accusations of skewed test results and others running around and saying the GTZ down right "sucks".

Kinda reminds me of the good ole' days when a certain member would run around answering every question and post with,

"MM RULZ WOOOOHOOOOO FTW!"

Obviously you tend to the melodramatic and have low reading comprehension, ubviously. And you obviously seem to want to continue the argument. I'd say you have as much or more of an agenda than anyone else here. And who do you see running around saying the GTZ "downright sucks", certainly not me.

And I've already stated why this IS a big issue. It's not about the 1-2c difference, it's about the pecking order implied by the test. But you will see what you want to see in order to protect your brand.

And when Gabe is ready to post tests that are as broad in conditions as say Skinnee's are, then I promise you I'll be right there to congratulate him on his results. But until then I stand behind everything I've said here.

[santiagodraco]

Agree with your first sentence. Have you tried the GTZ? It is extremely friendly to the first time water cooler, and would be a good choice for many people.

You keep saying you have no agenda against Swiftech, but you have certainly spent a lot of time trying to counter the results presented here ...

I've probably spent WAY TOO MUCH much time here.... it's like a dog with a bone, I know

Anyway, no, I really don't have an agenda against Gabe nor have I tried to counter the results themselves. What I am trying to say is the results are presented as representative of the XS audience, which they are not, and are therefore inappropriate.

I have not tried the GTZ, but I probably would have bought one had I not had ALU in my loop, to be honest. I know it's a great block, as are the HK and the KL 350. And it's less restrictive.

I just want to see vendors either posting VERY CLEARLY that their results are limited in focus or not at all OR in a forum where they can be taken for what they are, brand promotion. Or does anyone here with half a brain think that Gabe would post results that show the GTZ to be inferior to another brand? If he does I'll change my tune and commend him for it because then it would truely be about the community and not the brand

[NaeKuh]

I can't help but laugh at the people getting their panties in a bunch over a .5degree difference on a waterblock given particular conditions.

the thing thats pissing a lot of people off is that its more then .5 degree's and i got my third confirmation last night that the KL-350 > GTZ in single block setups.

so i totally understand santiagodraco.

[Freaky Freezer]

Obviously you tend to the melodramatic and have low reading comprehension, ubviously.

My reading comprehension is as low as your writing ability, ubviously.

Koolance rocks WOOOOHOOOOO FTW!!!!!!

the thing thats pissing a lot of people off is that its more then .5 degree's and i got my third confirmation last night that the KL-350 > GTZ in single block setups.

so i totally understand santiagodraco.

He hasn't conducted himself in a respectful manner. He's been standoffish, condescending, accusatory and down right rude. As have others towards Gabe and GTZ as of late. Swiftech has become too "mainstream" and there is a little clic on this site who has taken the "cool" initiative to bash it for being so.

He could've simply said,

"Hey Gabe, what about a single CPU-block loop and high flow, there have been tests that show the Koolance performs better than the GTZ in that application, can you confirm or deny this? Thank you"

instead of spewing the trash that has been in his posts.

[santiagodraco]

My reading comprehension is as low as your writing ability, ubviously.

Koolance rocks WOOOOHOOOOO FTW!!!!!!



He hasn't conducted himself in a respectful manner. He's been standoffish, condescending, accusatory and down right rude. As have others towards Gabe and GTZ as of late. Swiftech has become too "mainstream" and there is a little clic on this site who has taken the "cool" initiative to bash it for being so.

He could've simply said,

"Hey Gabe, what about a single CPU-block loop and high flow, there have been tests that show the Koolance performs better than the GTZ in that application, can you confirm or deny this? Thank you"

instead of spewing the trash that has been in his posts.

You must be reading posts I wrote and don't know about because I don't see how I've come anywhere close to posting in the style or intent you imply. But the fact that I have tried to be respectful, dilligently imo, doesn't fit your desired view of reality so nothing I can say will change your, well, "disrespectful" attempts to flame me. But I can uderstand your passion, mine gets the best of me quite often as well, hence all my posts in this thread (sorry for that guys, I lose control sometimes).

Oh btw, you should read the earlier posts from me, they ask exactly that.

[kimoyo]

pissing a lot of people off is

Whose a lot of people? Because it ain't pissing me off and I'm in the market for a block right now. Santiagodraco is off the chain with this right now. You guys keep talking about single cpu block test but that's not how everyone runs their system. The system Gabe is running these test on is a reasonable system. It looks almost exactly like a lot of murdermods I've seen. The fact that you guys want him to change these test conditions says a lot about where you are coming from. All the other tests I've seen have been single cpu blocks. And if the 350 is better fine, but what is the issue with him showing a more realistic test for his block. Maybe he designed his block to work in a more realistic situation but no testers are testing for that. Disregarding his tests because they are testing different situations is childish, especially since every other test is only looking at a very narrow set conditions already. And to add to it, he is upfront about what his conditions are. I read something a few weeks back, I can't remember who posted it and I couldn't post at the time, but someone actually mounted an HK 30 times in a test because he didn't get the result he was looking for and mentioned it a few pages later. How biased is that? How can you be a tester testing something and give one block so many opportunities to do better than the rest. Even if your the one messing up (and if you are maybe you shouldn't be testing) its not acceptable. And thats the attitude many of you seem to have, the test need to fit your preconceived notions instead or being what it is.

I would prefer a single loop because it would be neater in my build. I have a p6t6 and will be using koolance mb blocks, koolance gtx260 blocks and most likely a koolance res, along with some other little stuff. And I was leaning toward the 350 along with some other blocks. Will this test or other tests be the only factor in my decision, not really. But if going with a 350 means I have to do two loops, that will. And with arguments you guys are making that seems to be the case. Do I think I'm unique in wanting to do a single loop, no...why have things like the monsta rad if people only want to do dual loops. BTW, you guys do know what swiftech sells a lot of pumps, I don't know Gabe's business but if everyone did a dual loop it might actually be helping his bottom line.

And someone really needs to test a nickel plated HK3 because that copper wouldn't be goin in my rig looking like that. The LT looks kinda hot though.

[kimoyo]

I give tours on the weekends, ask BlueAqua.

I really wasn't making any sort of dig on you but this is good to know and thanks for the info. To be more specific, IMO there is more accountability for vendors and they can be held to a better standard than testers, because we are buying their products.

[santiagodraco]

Whose a lot of people? Because it ain't pissing me off and I'm in the market for a block right now. Santiagodraco is off the chain with this right now. You guys keep talking about single cpu block test but that's not how everyone runs their system. The system Gabe is running these test on is a reasonable system. It looks almost exactly like a lot of murdermods I've seen. The fact that you guys want him to change these test conditions says a lot about where you are coming from. All the other tests I've seen have been single cpu blocks. And if the 350 is better fine, but what is the issue with him showing a more realistic test for his block. Maybe he designed his block to work in a more realistic situation but no testers are testing for that. Disregarding his tests because they are testing different situations is childish, especially since every other test is only looking at a very narrow set conditions already. And to add to it, he is upfront about what his conditions are. I read something a few weeks back, I can't remember who posted it and I couldn't post at the time, but someone actually mounted an HK 30 times in a test because he didn't get the result he was looking for and mentioned it a few pages later. How biased is that? How can you be a tester testing something and give one block so many opportunities to do better than the rest. Even if your the one messing up (and if you are maybe you shouldn't be testing) its not acceptable. And thats the attitude many of you seem to have, the test need to fit your preconceived notions instead or being what it is.

I would prefer a single loop because it would be neater in my build. I have a p6t6 and will be using koolance mb blocks, koolance gtx260 blocks and most likely a koolance res, along with some other little stuff. And I was leaning toward the 350 along with some other blocks. Will this test or other tests be the only factor in my decision, not really. But if going with a 350 means I have to do two loops, that will. And with arguments you guys are making that seems to be the case. Do I think I'm unique in wanting to do a single loop, no...why have things like the monsta rad if people only want to do dual loops. BTW, you guys do know what swiftech sells a lot of pumps, I don't know Gabe's business but if everyone did a dual loop it might actually be helping his bottom line.

And someone really needs to test a nickel plated HK3 because that copper wouldn't be goin in my rig looking like that. The LT looks kinda hot though.

Flow is more of an issue, not the single loop block. Most people use multi-block loops when they use only one loop. Those that use multiple loops, however, run the CPU in a loop by itself.

However most people run their pumps at max speed, whereas this test is at half speed.

I run a single multi-block loop myself and I've stated that I have no problems with that part of the test (but would like to see a single block test anyway).

[NaeKuh]

Whose a lot of people?

And you would know with a 4 post count? How about a the testers who came b4 gabe and had different results?

Basically gabe's test slapped them in the face and said there testing was false. However its down to how you interpret the data. Gabe only showed one set of data, were asking for the other half on HIS bed.

Because it ain't pissing me off and I'm in the market for a block right now.

And you would constitute the entire forum?

The system Gabe is running these test on is a reasonable system.

I agree with you... however its not the true way to test a cpu block.

The fact that you guys want him to change these test conditions says a lot about where you are coming from.

Excuse me, why shouldn't i be able to ask for him to change something to show a CPU BLOCK test? (dude wait til you see result which shows the GTZ losing to a KL-350 system with more flow and pressure). <-- FACT i had 3 distinguished testers confirm this.

And yes i used to be a tester so i can voice out my disgruntlings about a test, because to a tester the best way to SHUT us unhappy people up is by testing the way we want which i think is logical to have a CPU only test on a CPU block.

BTW, you guys do know what swiftech sells a lot of pumps, I don't know Gabe's business but if everyone did a dual loop it might actually be helping his bottom line.

So does koolance, and dangerden, and alphacool, but guess what there all sourced by laing.
And gabe still gave us no word on the DDC-3.25 which guess what... Koolance has been using for a while now.


And your saying santiagodraco is a koolance fanboy? What does that make you?

[Freaky Freezer]

Glad you like your GTZ.

Of course most realize that this particular test was suited towards the strengths of the GTZ over other blocks, as demonstrated by other tests that show different results.

Of course we won't see a manufacturer conducted test that is that unbiased, which is why it's good we have other tests to refer to that are more... applicable to real world implementations.

I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is that your tests appear, to some, to be fairly... rigid in methodology, whereas other tests cover a broader, and more realistic, scope.

So a "fair and unbiased" test of these blocks would cover various flow rates, imo. But your tests have yet to do that, and when asked to do so you have either not acknowledged the request or attempted to discredit it.

So you state you want to go to an independent tester (I'd say that's happened quite a bit already, but whatever). So, if said independent testing house also follows a specific singular test condition, most favorable to the GTZ, wouldn't you also expect it to be met with skepticism by at least some folks?

I really don't think it has nearly as much to do with you personally, certainly ANYONE performing legitimate tests adds value, and your tests have been legitimate, if not narrow in focus

But I have an issue with a vendor posting "tests" of competitors blocks in a community forum without stating clearly these conditions. Posting these kinds of things in a sales forum where it's clearly from an adverstizer, or on your own website, is different. But here they hold a different level of credibility as they appear to be less biased as they are in a community forum, so extra care SHOULD be taken to make sure they cover a broad range of conditions.

I also find it odd that you are complimented for doing your job as CEO, which is to advertize your product. And anyone who thinks that this is anything other than brand promotion is fooling themselves. To imply some kind of nobility to promoting your product is a bit odd to me.

Personally I think the GTZ is a good block, and in certain conditions, such as your test bed, the better block. But not all conditions and WE as a community have an obligation to assure that the community readers are getting unbiased, unconfusing, and applicable test results. I'm not quite sure this has been done here.

Deleted. No sense adding fuel to the fire!

Read into it what you will. The fact that those conditions have been asked for, multiple times by multiple people and have generally been ignored or discredited speaks volumes to me. There are multiple posts in this thread asking for just this, all of them ignored.

But you keep on telling yourself it's otherwise.

He's a CEO doing his job to promote his product and NOT promote the competitors (which he would quite possibly be doing if his tests were broader in scope). But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be called out on it. He's a big boy, he can take the heat. And if he can't he shouldn't be CEO in the first place.

But that doesn't mean the conditions are not favorable to his block, and I would expect any CEO who publishes a test of his companies products to make damn sure that the tests ARE favorable or they DON"T get published.
But do so in a public forum and you better damn well expect it to be scrutinized.

You attempt to credit Gabe by discrediting everyone else simply because they have the good sense to not post their own tests on a public forum and instead do so on their websites where it belongs. Here's what I would suggest. Gabe can create a Swiftec forum and posts tests to his hearts content. I would respect him for doing so. If you think the tests are valid you can start a post saying "Swiftec publishes new test results for medium flow loops" and I'd bet the response here would be quite different. Then Gabe can continue to do the other side of his job which he does VERY well which is to help his customers with questions about his products. I respect him and the others (like Dean from Koolance) for doing the same. THAT is the proper use of the forums by a company representative imo.

I stand behind what I say Gabe. And you said "aimed at Xtreme members" which would indicate that for that audience your tests are invalid since your testbed is not representative of "most" extreme users. Had you said they were "aimed at users who run lower flow loops with multiple blocks" it would be QUITE different. As it is the purpose of your test is to state that the GTZ block is the better block for the majority of XS users, which is untrue, based on your test conditions.

As for Swiftech's mounting method I'm not sure how it's so innovative considering. It's also limited to certain sockets without kits and is essentially a takeoff on the design of certain other block hold down plates (with less socket flexibility) from what I can see.

Nope, I see no disrespectful, condescening, accusatory or down right rude comments here. It was all just a part of my own false reality. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[NaeKuh]

Dude skinnee's results come out soon, and its gonna be different from this one.

(im actually looking at the yibirs eclipse right now).

[antiacid]

I think it might happen when people use the "delete post" feature, and some of the system dont react on that and leaves the page count, but only removes the post.

Sorry about the double post. I actually have no clue how it appeared but since I typed the post a bit drunk, I can't recall exactly what sequence of events there was. I deleted the 2nd one anyway

As for the actual block testing methodology discussion, I don't get why all of a sudden we get excited that there's only one configuration tested when it was clearly stated why that particular setup was chosen and that there are other independent reviewers who are doing different setups that are just as narrow in focus.

To my knowledge, both those two high quality blocks perform adequately and given your particular scenario, you may or may not get the "best" performance out of your system (by a very thin margin, at that).

I think that by not accepting the fact that those blocks are very similar in performance (regardless of the pressure/flow rate/number of blocks in the loop), we are missing the point. The point is that both the blocks are a good purchase but they won't make or break your setup. If anything, changing the fans on the rads is going to yield a significant difference in temperatures regardless of the block used :P

Also, Santiago pretty much lost all credibility when he said that the mounting mechanism isn't really that cool. I mean, not only is it a foolproof way of mounting the system for beginners and pros alike but it also is very sturdy and solid! I personally don't get why other companies aren't copying this mounting method or something similar. Making it work for different sockets shouldn't be particularly difficult either, with support from swiftech.


Also, it seems Gabe reads this thread more than the other one in the TEC section, so here's a derail for you guys:

regarding the Swiftech MCW7000-T, are there plans to make it work with a standard PSU, perhaps using multiple molex connectors? It'd make life so much easier

[NaeKuh]

The GTZ does have one of the best mounting systems tho.

I totally agree with you guys on that.

And its priced cheaper then its competitors which makes it a great block.

However its far from being the best, and the HK beat it on gabe's own bed.

He could've simply said,

"Hey Gabe, what about a single CPU-block loop and high flow, there have been tests that show the Koolance performs better than the GTZ in that application, can you confirm or deny this? Thank you"

instead of spewing the trash that has been in his posts.

LOL this kind of personality is something that you learn. I still havent fully learned it yet, and i need my regular soap box bashing done by skinnee, gillbot, and now i think vapor bought a mallet himself too.

Im trying to sort out whats garbage and whats not, so lemme catch up to the thread. Santiago take a chill pill tho, i have to agree with freezer on this, let us who know how to attack do the attacking and not force blunt trama.

Also, it seems Gabe reads this thread more than the other one in the TEC section, so here's a derail for you guys:

regarding the Swiftech MCW7000-T, are there plans to make it work with a standard PSU, perhaps using multiple molex connectors? It'd make life so much easier

i need a facepalm for this one.

Someone tell gabe the dangers of running a 400W tec on a psu power line.

Something about not enough wire thickness which leads to a fire.

The PSU makers themself will tell you this is a dumb idea. And they might recomend you butchering your PCI-E power lines for the required wire thickness, but even then theres irony in your computer catching fire when watercooled.

Grab a MEANWELL FTW!

Dude i beg you please learn TEC's b4 u get them. There not all there cracked up to be, and theres a lot of safety issues you should be prepared for.

Even when i lent my blocks to skinnee, i told him constantly, dont set your house on fire.

[Sly Fox]

Hopefully one day the KL350 pimping comes to an end. Boy am I tired of hearing about that block...

I think the board as a whole would agree, we get it, it scales well with higher pressure systems. Yes, we've heard.

*Edit* Oh, and post 1000, it's been a long time comin. Woooooo!

[Freaky Freezer]

Dude skinnee's results come out soon, and its gonna be different from this one.

(im actually looking at the yibirs eclipse right now).

I'm eagerly awaiting those results and will fully trust them. I do hope though that someone proves or disproves Gabe's claim that the GTZ performs better on an unlapped CPU. I think that is important information that hopefully someone gets to the bottom of.

[NaeKuh]

Hopefully one day the KL350 pimping comes to an end. Boy am I tired of hearing about that block...

I think the board as a whole would agree, we get it, it scales well with higher pressure systems. Yes, we've heard.

*Edit* Oh, and post 1000, it's been a long time comin. Woooooo!

LOL....

Yeah me too, i think im done with it as well. As i said im looking at the yibris. That is one sexy ass block.

And Congrats on the 1k.. now you need to go 1001 to reply to this message if you do. :P

[Sly Fox]

LOL....

Yeah me too, i think im done with it as well. As i said im looking at the yibris. That is one sexy ass block.

And Congrats on the 1k.. now you need to go 1001 to reply to this message if you do. :P

Didn't mean you in particular btw, lots of people do it. But yes, you are a big one.

So no offense meant, it just gets kinda old hearing about the same old block day in day out.

We need variety!!

[kimoyo]

Did you actually read what I said or did you just glance over it and get angry?

And you would know with a 4 post count? How about a the testers who came b4 gabe and had different results?

Well, its a good thing I can read and XS keeps thread for more than a few weeks.

Basically gabe's test slapped them in the face and said there testing was false. However its down to how you interpret the data. Gabe only showed one set of data, were asking for the other half on HIS bed.

Really, thats what it did? Test are based on initial conditions/parameters. If you changes those conditions, the results may vary. If those results are correct and weren't anticipated then its shows a lack of understanding. Was there another test setup the same way, testing the same conditions?

And you would constitute the entire forum?

I think you got me mixed up there buddy. I'm one consumer, looking to put together my first watercooling rig who is using this forum as a resource to make that happen. All, I asked was, who is the "lot of people" you are referring to? Are you speaking for the entire forum, or you speaking for a clique, are you speaking for a group of testers, who are you speaking for? I hope my voice can count or do I have to have several thousand posts before I can say something meaningful.

But then again I'm about to buy a g worth of water cooling equipment, I'm new to the hobby and I read the forums, so my demographic probably counts for something.

I agree with you... however its not the true way to test a cpu block.

Seriously, its there some sort of book that details the "true way" to test a block? Do blocks perform the same in every ones system?

Excuse me, why shouldn't i be able to ask for him to change something to show a CPU BLOCK test? (dude wait til you see result which shows the GTZ losing to a KL-350 system with more flow and pressure). <-- FACT i had 3 distinguished testers confirm this.

And this effects me how? Better question, does this effect Gabe? Do you know how much free publicity you are giving him. And whats worse, is your attacking him. So, someone new to the hobby, like myself sees this and thinks twice about getting a gtz. You may not realize this but you guys are actually driving business to him right now.

And your still missing the point that not everyone is going to run their system with more flow and pressure. So even if its gets more flow pressure during one specific test, it doesn't mean it will my system. Disregarding tests because the have different initial conditions limits understanding.

And are there any side effects on more flow and pressure? What about noise?

And yes i used to be a tester so i can voice out my disgruntlings about a test, because to a tester the best way to SHUT us unhappy people up is by testing the way we want which i think is logical to have a CPU only test on a CPU block.

Its logical to you but your not everyone. Not everyone is going to have only a cpu block or dual loops.

So does koolance, and dangerden, and alphacool, but guess what there all sourced by laing.
And gabe still gave us no word on the DDC-3.25 which guess what... Koolance has been using for a while now.

It seems like you have history with Gabe which I know nothing about. Again, we not talking about a huge difference in temps. Experimental error can explain minor differences and obviously you have a clique of people out for blood. To me, these accusations are baseless because I have looked at the way these tests are done and if your thinking this is going to drive his sales down, I seriously doubt it.

And your saying santiagodraco is a koolance fanboy? What does that make you?

Huh, when did I say that? But I'll answer your question, I'm a consumer who buys what I think looks good, plain and simple.


BTW, I know you erased your comment already, but its okay that you will own more water cooling equipment then me in my lifetime. You know, it chokes me up to say this but I've come to grips with it. Your e-penis is much bigger than mine.

[kimoyo]

Dude skinnee's results come out soon, and its gonna be different from this one.

(im actually looking at the yibirs eclipse right now).

You've said this several times and your putting it out there like you and Skinnee are on the phone having discussion and updates about these results. Your being very public about your relationship with Skinnee and your dislike for Swiftech. From reading Skinnee's posts and web page and reading Martin's post they seem like very stand up guys. But if the tests are supposed to be independent and you are so obviously cheering against one company, its seems like a serious conflict of interest that you are so close to the testing. Now Skinnee hasn't posted anything about this, you have and its unfortunate that you are continually bringing his name up and linking it to your own views. But what is your involvement in the testing?

And I hope there is a 5-10 degree difference between the blocks with all the things you guys have said here. If not I have to question the energy you guys have put into just posting on this thread alone.

[NaeKuh]

Oh wow... right now you feel like a little kid trying to preach to me.

so ima just ignore it.

FYI, martin and skinnee are both really good friends of mine.

Kimoyo dont, im not even in your league for you to be picking a fight with... and yes this is a epenis comment.

I had no problem with his test, because i know what his tests mean. However i have a problem with his methodology of testing because only one side of the test was conducted which favors his own block.

^ His own block is the big disgruntle, if he goes and shows it on different scenarios then i and the rest wouldnt have problems with it.

If you want to take it up to more agruement then Koolance ALU Rads = FTW get 300CFM though it and it rapes Black ice... But as i said this is one side, and we throughly flamed koolance for that remark.

Swiftech is not immune to such comments nor is EK nor is DD nor any vendor who conducts there OWN SINGLE tests in FAVOR of there product. This is why we push individual testing on products or a methodology where everyone is happy.

^keywords methodology that we are all happy with.

CPU block testing on CPU loop is simple knowlege, ive flamed bundymania a TON of times for NOT doing it.

Gabe isnt any more special then bundymania to not hear our requests.

[kimoyo]

Oh wow... right now you feel like a little kid trying to preach to me.

so ima just ignore it.

FYI, martin and skinnee are both really good friends of mine.

Kimoyo dont, im not even in your league for you to be picking a fight with... and yes this is a epenis comment.

I had no problem with his test, because i know what his tests mean. However i have a problem with his methodology of testing because only one side of the test was conducted which favors his own block.

^ His own block is the big disgruntle, if he goes and shows it on different scenarios then i and the rest wouldnt have problems with it.

If you want to take it up to more agruement then Koolance ALU Rads = FTW get 300CFM though it and it rapes Black ice... But as i said this is one side, and we throughly flamed koolance for that remark.

Swiftech is not immune to such comments nor is EK nor is DD nor any vendor who conducts there OWN SINGLE tests in FAVOR of there product. This is why we push individual testing on products or a methodology where everyone is happy.

^keywords methodology that we are all happy with.

CPU block testing on CPU loop is simple knowlege, ive flamed bundymania a TON of times for NOT doing it.

Gabe isnt any more special then bundymania to not hear our requests.

Dude, I like you in a total e-like forum kinda way.

[gabe]

I had no problem with his test, because i know what his tests mean. However i have a problem with his methodology of testing because only one side of the test was conducted which favors his own block.

Noted, with exception taken as to "favoring" my block, it wasn't my intention. ..and I have a problem with test reports on lapped CPU's right now, because my block is in the ring with hands tied behind its back. How fair is that?

[Hondacity]

gabe

are you going to sell a top only for the gtz? are the holes non-recessed?

[gillbot]

LOL this kind of personality is something that you learn. I still havent fully learned it yet, and i need my regular soap box bashing done by skinnee, gillbot, and now i think vapor bought a mallet himself too.

If he didn't, one is in the mail to him already.

I have a ready supply of them to hand out.

[Arni]

gabe thx for test now i had time to looked it