Well, I've gone crazy

[flopper]

Personally, I have used both SSD 2x mtron in RAID 0 and Velociraptor 2x RAID 0 and I couldn't feel any real difference. At least not where it counted. Sure, some minor things were maybe a wee bit faster, but overall I am firmly of the opnion that the people who rave about how much faster their new SSD array is over the better disk-based set-ups are mostly falling prey to the "It must be better because I just spent $$$$", effect. It "feels" so much better because they dropped so much cash nothing else would be acceptable. Everyone posts up HDTach and HDTune all the time but those benches are just misleading.

Desktop is faster using ssd, and I used velociraptor, and I aint talking about the number of data beeing read from the disks, but the snappy obviously felt sensation using ssd.
This is also similiar to some people who dont hear a difference between onboard sound and a new sound card.
some even pour coca cola into 18 year old single malt whiskey.

For me ssd made an impact as much I wouldnt go back to drives with old tech.

[One_Hertz]

Personally, I have used both SSD 2x mtron in RAID 0 and Velociraptor 2x RAID 0 and I couldn't feel any real difference. At least not where it counted. Sure, some minor things were maybe a wee bit faster, but overall I am firmly of the opnion that the people who rave about how much faster their new SSD array is over the better disk-based set-ups are mostly falling prey to the "It must be better because I just spent $$$$", effect. It "feels" so much better because they dropped so much cash nothing else would be acceptable. Everyone posts up HDTach and HDTune all the time but those benches are just misleading.

I can redo those tests on my raptor if you want... I've done some already; it takes ~2x longer to load games, the copy/paste tests are 4-5x slower. I don't know how I can get more real world than that .

[BenchZowner]

One of the simple tests anyone can do to compare a HDD with a SSD is run a folder/file compression ( archiving with WinRAR for example ) and try to use the PC in heavy apps or multi-tasking ( i.e. WinRAR compressing, PhotoShop filters running, and editing HTML code in DreamWeaver ).

[alfaunits]

Editing HTML code in DreamWeaver?????????
I can do that with 4 DivX and WInRAR instances in the background LOL.
@Speederlander, note that you have Mtron SSDs, which even their fastest 7500 Pro line aren't really the fatest kind today... I doubt you'd have the same feeling even with X25-M, much less -E.
What I will love the most with SSDs is no need for cooling! That's not just less heat and noise, that's less dust in the room! (or ionized particles, whatever )

[BenchZowner]

Editing HTML code in DreamWeaver?????????
I can do that with 4 DivX and WInRAR instances in the background LOL.
@Speederlander, note that you have Mtron SSDs, which even their fastest 7500 Pro line aren't really the fatest kind today... I doubt you'd have the same feeling even with X25-M, much less -E.
What I will love the most with SSDs is no need for cooling! That's not just less heat and noise, that's less dust in the room! (or ionized particles, whatever )

I guess you're missing some parts here.
Let me make it clearer:

Have a system with a Quad-Core, a reasonably fast HDD ( let's say Samsung's F1 1TB ), 3GBs of RAM, and Windows XP ( I'm not even dragging Vista in this ), and have a single ( or more as you wish ) WinRAR instances compressing data, at the same time have PhotoShop running some filters on a banner or sth, while you are coding & creating templates ( in both Coding & WYSIWYG modes ) in DreamWeaver.
Does your system feel snappy ? Is it responsive and fast ?
How long does it take to alt tab for example from DreamWeaver to a working ( in progress ) PhotoShop window ?

What kind of difference does a good SLC SSD do in this scenario ?
Try the same with a single WinRAR instance extracting the data from an archive... ( yeah, it's getting worse )

[Speederlander]

Editing HTML code in DreamWeaver?????????
I can do that with 4 DivX and WInRAR instances in the background LOL.
@Speederlander, note that you have Mtron SSDs, which even their fastest 7500 Pro line aren't really the fatest kind today... I doubt you'd have the same feeling even with X25-M, much less -E.
What I will love the most with SSDs is no need for cooling! That's not just less heat and noise, that's less dust in the room! (or ionized particles, whatever )

I run a pair of the 7500 pros in RAID 0, soon to just break them up and use each for a VM. Those should be perfectly speedy to "feel" a major change. And that's my point, do you feel a slight improvement with SSDs? Yeah, sure. Is the vast benchmark improvement reflective of how they feel compared to the fastest (SAS and velociraptor) platter drives? No. At a certain point, when something gets fast enough, a lot of the improvement becomes undetectable.

Honestly. The only thing I use that really FEELS faster than a couple velociraptors in raid is my superspeed ramdrive. Everything is instantaneous. Blows away raptors and SSDs.

[aintz]

well youve obviously gone crazy. give me rejected ocz ssd so i dont have to listen to the raptors clicking.

[alfaunits]

I guess you're missing some parts here.
Let me make it clearer:

Have a system with a Quad-Core, a reasonably fast HDD ( let's say Samsung's F1 1TB ), 3GBs of RAM, and Windows XP ( I'm not even dragging Vista in this ), and have a single ( or more as you wish ) WinRAR instances compressing data, at the same time have PhotoShop running some filters on a banner or sth, while you are coding & creating templates ( in both Coding & WYSIWYG modes ) in DreamWeaver.
Does your system feel snappy ? Is it responsive and fast ?
How long does it take to alt tab for example from DreamWeaver to a working ( in progress ) PhotoShop window ?

Alt-tabbing is instant, the disk plays no role in this, unless you are so low on RAM that you get swapping to the drive (I have swap file turned off).
Yes, alt-tabbing feels instant, the editing feels instant.
Is it responsive? Hell with 200% CPU usage, what do you expect? The disk is not a player in this case, trust me.

What kind of difference does a good SLC SSD do in this scenario ?

None:
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/15931/8
unless you're talking of Fusion IoDrive or X25-E only. From the page above, X25-M and non-X25-E SLC SSDs are slower than VRaptor during multitasking.

I run a pair of the 7500 pros in RAID 0, soon to just break them up and use each for a VM. Those should be perfectly speedy to "feel" a major change. And that's my point, do you feel a slight improvement with SSDs? Yeah, sure. Is the vast benchmark improvement reflective of how they feel compared to the fastest (SAS and velociraptor) platter drives? No. At a certain point, when something gets fast enough, a lot of the improvement becomes undetectable.

See link above. Mtron's are in the Samsung/OCZ SLC range, the X25-E would change the picture.

It seems you're doing mostly desktop use though, for that SSDs don't make a whole or any difference vs. VRaptor.

[swiftex]

I'm running 2x64gb ssd's v.2 jmicron controller on a 5805 and happier than a pig in #$&*, replaced 3x 150ADFD raptors raid5
I heard Apex series 120gb nand is quicker than smaller config, not sure if this will apply to Vertex...............

[BenchZowner]

Alt-tabbing is instant, the disk plays no role in this, unless you are so low on RAM that you get swapping to the drive (I have swap file turned off).
Yes, alt-tabbing feels instant, the editing feels instant.
Is it responsive? Hell with 200% CPU usage, what do you expect? The disk is not a player in this case, trust me.


None:

That remains to be seen.
I have all the hardware handy here, and shortly after I finish the tests for the BloodRage review I'll give it a shot and have a video camera recording the tests.
I'm willing to bet that the system will be way more responsive with the SSD.

[alfaunits]

WHICH SSd?That is the question.. not the Mtrons or alike.

[BenchZowner]

WHICH SSd?That is the question.. not the Mtrons or alike.

Even a single Mtron 3500 series is going to make a difference.
Just wait a bit and you'll see

[alfaunits]

You'll be unplesantly surprised...

[BenchZowner]

You'll be unplesantly surprised...

We're going to find out later on today.
If I were you... I'd leave my door open

[Tony]

with all this testing I hope you guys aligned the partitions or you wasted your time.

vertex is an IO monster BTW but remember this is mainly cache induced, linear reads writes are not much better than Apex.

SSD testing needs a total revamp, none of the common HDD tests tell the truth OR give an end user any idea about whether a cheap drive will work ok on their system or they need a more expensive drive.


Here is a question for ya'll

What is the minimum IOP's you need 4K random write 10GB test file for 2 mins for a drive to work without causing the sata controller to pause and cause a stutter?

Not 1 review on a forum or a website yet has proven what is needed and what is not...lets see if you guys can actually come up with the answer

[One_Hertz]

with all this testing I hope you guys aligned the partitions or you wasted your time.

vertex is an IO monster BTW but remember this is mainly cache induced, linear reads writes are not much better than Apex.

SSD testing needs a total revamp, none of the common HDD tests tell the truth OR give an end user any idea about whether a cheap drive will work ok on their system or they need a more expensive drive.


Here is a question for ya'll

What is the minimum IOP's you need 4K random write 10GB test file for 2 mins for a drive to work without causing the sata controller to pause and cause a stutter?

Not 1 review on a forum or a website yet has proven what is needed and what is not...lets see if you guys can actually come up with the answer

I did a sector to sector copy when moving between drive setups so everything was EXACTLY the same.

That's a good question on the minimum IOPS . It can be tested for but somebody is going to have to sit down a spend weeks doing that. If only I didn't have full time work and part time university . There is definitely a number of IOPS past which it just doesn't help any more. Same with STR. I know my X25-Es are well beyond the helpful IOPS number.

[Brahmzy]

with all this testing I hope you guys aligned the partitions or you wasted your time.

vertex is an IO monster BTW but remember this is mainly cache induced, linear reads writes are not much better than Apex.

SSD testing needs a total revamp, none of the common HDD tests tell the truth OR give an end user any idea about whether a cheap drive will work ok on their system or they need a more expensive drive.


Here is a question for ya'll

What is the minimum IOP's you need 4K random write 10GB test file for 2 mins for a drive to work without causing the sata controller to pause and cause a stutter?

Not 1 review on a forum or a website yet has proven what is needed and what is not...lets see if you guys can actually come up with the answer

Exactly. This will get most SSDs... regardless of cache. I have a 13GB backup folder which I copy between multiple machines weekly at home.
It has tons of small .jpeg's, tons of large .jpeg's, huge 700mb single files, and a collection of everything in between.

My Velociraptors would chew this thing up without thinking about it. Amazing write speed - as fast as my other WD6400AAKS could send it. When I went to copy this huge folder onto my new Titan SSD RAID0 array, it actually handled it amazingly well, but I did experience quite a few half-second pauses while writing. I use robocopy which shows me EXACTLY where the SSDs slow down during the write process. It's always when it gets to a folder with a ton of tiny little .jpeg's or similar.

The folder typically took just about 3 minutes to write to my 3 Velociraptors and it took about 4 1/2 minutes to write to the 2 Titans. Not bad, but clearly slower. There comes a point where, depending on what types of files are being written and how much of them, where cache or no cache doesn't matter. Cache gets saturated when the write requests keep coming after many seconds and certainly minutes. It fills up and then still has to wait on the SSD(s) to write it all. Now day to day multitasking? Yeah, cache is the answer.

Now I rarely ever write that folder to the SSDs - only during a system rebuild. It is always READ from the SSDs which is ridiculously fast (faster than my VR's could ever dream) for LAN backups.

[NapalmV5]

with all this testing I hope you guys aligned the partitions or you wasted your time.

vertex is an IO monster BTW but remember this is mainly cache induced, linear reads writes are not much better than Apex.

SSD testing needs a total revamp, none of the common HDD tests tell the truth OR give an end user any idea about whether a cheap drive will work ok on their system or they need a more expensive drive.


Here is a question for ya'll

What is the minimum IOP's you need 4K random write 10GB test file for 2 mins for a drive to work without causing the sata controller to pause and cause a stutter?

Not 1 review on a forum or a website yet has proven what is needed and what is not...lets see if you guys can actually come up with the answer

thank you for bringing more common sense to the subforum.. it has gone randomly/ioply mad

we need ssd friendly controllers/benchmarks/ultimately os/apps

[Boogerlad]

not to hijack this thread, but how long does formatting to ntfs take on a ssd?

[NapalmV5]

raid0 4x ssd @ 64GB takes less than 2 sec to normal format @ winxp install

[XS Janus]

I hope all this what bencmark is really important for whom stuff will get cleared up this year, cause Iget the feeling people are getting bored with looking at silly HDtach screens...

[NeedMoMegaHurtZ]

Here is a question for ya'll

What is the minimum IOP's you need 4K random write 10GB test file for 2 mins for a drive to work without causing the sata controller to pause and cause a stutter?

Not 1 review on a forum or a website yet has proven what is needed and what is not...lets see if you guys can actually come up with the answer

Can you define a "stutter". How do you measure it? Is it a subjective experience for the user or can you objectively measure it? Would that "threshold value" be different for different users?

I think there is a high correlation from what many would describe as a "stutter" and IOmeter's reported "maximum write response time". But there I don't think there is necessarily a linear relationship between IOPS and "stutter". I don't think you can say "at this IOPS, you get stutter" . For example you can use a regular HD, and have very low 4K random write IOPS, but it's not the same perceptible experience as "stutter" on a SSD.

I think best tests are the ones that test real usage patterns/conditions

[dctokyo]

One_Hertz

After reading your test results, it seems that it is better to go with the on-board RAID controller over a hardware RAID card?

As for heat, I have seem reports that the SSD's get just as hot as a regular HDD.

[saint-francis]

One_Hertz

After reading your test results, it seems that it is better to go with the on-board RAID controller over a hardware RAID card?

For certain purposes...yes. Overall... no.

As for heat, I have seem reports that the SSD's get just as hot as a regular HDD.

Absolutely no way. You can tell simply by touching one in use. They are basically room temperature while being used to their fullest, whereas a normal HDD is always warm to the touch even if it's not in use ATM.

[flopper]

Not 1 review on a forum or a website yet has proven what is needed and what is not...lets see if you guys can actually come up with the answer

Your actually thinking that highly of review sites and reviewers?
I use salt, a pinch of finest highland malt as there is no way they know what they do.

Even a prominent site as benchmark review havent got to a good benchmark yet. And those guys should know the in and outs of harddrives.

just smack 1gb cache on your ssd´s and they run just fine.
1gb ram nowadays isnt that much in cost.
Much easier solution instead of using limited controllers.
Who ever made that decision to use jmicron should be shot.
It was a bad business decison.
IMO.

Since ssd are getting raided in all sorts of ways, we will see as your own tech simulation shows, a speed increase where its a must to get raided cards as sata 2 and then sata 3 is not enough for millions of users.
The train is about to leave the station and what do we get? sata 3 which is to slow for us.
If someone would be smart out there, they be doing such solution, providing ssd with pci-e out of the box.
ah yes, called fusion io drive.

The standards is to slow to adopt to the market.
SSD will simply explode this year and next, and what do people say when simply, this drive isnt any good to buy (vertex 2) since its limited by my motherboard?

Ah well, I get a raid card then