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Thread: ASUS Maximus II Formula - new P45 king?

  1. #2226
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    I have planned to let this board go on air for a while now but need to know if TRUE fit vertical (push/pull) or not? Actually TRU-black!!
    If not, what other great heatsink fit?

    Thanks in advance!
    i7 2600k @ 4.5GHz, 1.29V
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  2. #2227
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    Those setting below are 2h Small FTP P95 stable but mostl core 0 and core 3 will fail blend test or linpack affter 2minutes.

    Ram is memtest86 2.1 stable for about 6 passes.

    If RAM and GTL set to auto in BIOS same thing with Blend test as above.

    This template was found here not real adjusting done yet. Probably such fast blend failing and few hours small ftt stable is indication of something obvious - unfortunately not for me ?

    Also when we are talking about safe vcore do we mean reading from CpuZ or setting in bios?

    Extreme Tweaker
    Ai Overclock Tuner : Manual
    OC From CPU Level Up : Auto
    CPU Ratio Control : Manual
    - Ratio CMOS Setting : 8.5
    FSB Frequency : 471
    CPU Clock Skew : Auto
    North Bridge Clock Skew : Auto
    FSB Strap to North Bridge : Auto
    DRAM Frequency: DDR2-940MHz
    Dram Clock Skew CH1 A1 : Auto
    DRAM Clock Skew CH1 A2 : Auto
    Dram Clock Skew CH1 B1 : Auto
    Dram Clock Skew CH1 B2 : Auto


    DRAM Timing Control: Manual
    CAS# Latency : 5
    RAS# to CAS# Delay : 5
    RAS# Precharge : 5
    RAS# ActivateTime : 15
    RAS# to RAS# Delay : 5
    Row Refresh Cycle Time : 55
    Write Recovery Time : 8
    Read to Precharge Time : 5

    Read to Write Delay (S/D) : Auto
    Write to Read Delay (S) : Auto
    Write to Read Delay (D) : Auto
    Read to Read Delay (S) : Auto
    Read to Read Delay (D) : Auto
    Write to Write Delay (S) : Auto
    Write to Write Delay (D) : Auto

    Write to PRE Delay : Auto
    Read to PRE Delay : Auto
    PRE to PRE Delay : Auto
    ALL PRE to ACT Delay : Auto
    ALL PRE to REF Delay : Auto

    DRAM Static Read Control: Disabled
    Dram Read Training : Disabled
    MEM OC Charger : Enabled
    Ai Clock Twister : Moderate
    Transaction Booster : Manual

    Common Performance Level [10]

    Pull-In of CHA PH1 Enabled
    Pull-In of CHA PH2 Enabled
    Pull-In of CHA PH3 Enabled
    Pull-In of CHA PH4 Enabled
    Pull-In of CHA PH5 Enabled
    Pull-In of CHB PH1 Enabled
    Pull-In of CHB PH2 Enabled
    Pull-In of CHB PH3 Enabled
    Pull-In of CHB PH4 Enabled
    Pull-In of CHB PH5 Enabled

    PCIE Frequency : 100

    CPU Voltage : 1.35
    CPU PLL Voltage : 1.53975
    FSBT : 1.259
    DRAM Voltage : 2.012
    North Bridge Voltage : 1.35175
    South Bridge Voltage 1.5 : 1.5
    South Bridge Voltage 1.1 : 1.10

    CPU GTL Reference 0 : +50
    CPU GTL Reference 1 : +10
    CPU GTL Reference 2 : +50
    CPU GTL Reference 3 : +10
    North Bridge GTL Reference : Auto
    DDR2 Channel A REF Voltage : Auto
    DDR2 Channel B REF Voltage : Auto
    North Bridge DDR Reference : Auto

    Load Line Calibration : Enabled
    CPU Spread Spectrum : Disabled
    PCIE Spread Spectrum : Disabled

    Some screenie is coming.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vega View Post
    I have planned to let this board go on air for a while now but need to know if TRUE fit vertical (push/pull) or not? Actually TRU-black!!
    If not, what other great heatsink fit?

    Thanks in advance!
    Hi,

    True black with two fans work both directions with no problem.
    Last edited by seban; 12-07-2008 at 06:40 AM.
    q9550 e0 (lapped) - 3.98@1.326v - True Black (lapped + washer mod) + 2x NF-P12
    MF2 - 1802 (washer mod), 2x2 8500 Dominator @1115, Corsair HX 850w
    BFG 216 OCX 710/1480/1240 Acer 2216w, Samsung 40" 1080p,
    Antec P180 + 3x NF-P12, 1TB WD Black + 3x 500GB WD AAKS
    ASUS Xonar D2

  3. #2228
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    Quote Originally Posted by seban View Post
    Those setting below are 2h Small FTP P95 stable but mostl core 0 and core 3 will fail blend test or linpack affter 2minutes.

    Ram is memtest86 2.1 stable for about 6 passes.

    Also setting ram to auto is same thing aswell as GTL.

    This template I found here not real adjusting done. Probably such fast blend failing and few hours small ftt stable is indication of something obvious - unfortunately not for me ?

    Also when we are talking about safe vcore do we mean reading from CpuZ or setting in bios?



    Some screenie is coming.
    Most ppl are referring to cpuz or everest not whats set in bios.

    I think your stability problem can be corrected with your glts...
    If you get off of 1:1 ram your bandwidth will improve, those Corsairs should do 1140MHz easy
    Last edited by Grnfinger; 12-07-2008 at 06:42 AM.

  4. #2229
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    Gentlemen,
    This thread is going waaaaay off base. All of you have your strengths and opinions and we should appreciate and acknowledge both. We are supposed to be friends helping friends, not get into pissing matches. I have learned a lot from each of you and I DO appreciate your knowledge and the fact that each of you take the time to help others.

    So please let's get back on topic and put our anger towards the Asus Bios engineers that have apparently left us hanging with a three hundred US dollar board and a five dollar bios.
    XSWCG Disclaimer:
    We are not responsible for the large sums of money that you WILL want to spend to upgrade and add additional equipment. This is an addiction and the forum takes no responsibility morally or financially for the equipment and therapy cost. Thank you and have a great day.

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  5. #2230
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiGfever View Post
    Gentlemen,
    This thread is going waaaaay off base. All of you have your strengths and opinions and we should appreciate and acknowledge both. We are supposed to be friends helping friends, not get into pissing matches. I have learned a lot from each of you and I DO appreciate your knowledge and the fact that each of you take the time to help others.

    So please let's get back on topic and put our anger towards the Asus Bios engineers that have apparently left us hanging with a three hundred US dollar board and a five dollar bios.
    Well said

  6. #2231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grnfinger View Post
    Most ppl are referring to cpuz or everest not whats set in bios.

    I think your stability problem can be corrected with your glts...
    If you get off of 1:1 ram your bandwidth will improve, those Corsairs should do 1140MHz easy
    Any suggested setting to start from for 11xxmhz for Dominator?
    q9550 e0 (lapped) - 3.98@1.326v - True Black (lapped + washer mod) + 2x NF-P12
    MF2 - 1802 (washer mod), 2x2 8500 Dominator @1115, Corsair HX 850w
    BFG 216 OCX 710/1480/1240 Acer 2216w, Samsung 40" 1080p,
    Antec P180 + 3x NF-P12, 1TB WD Black + 3x 500GB WD AAKS
    ASUS Xonar D2

  7. #2232
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    Quote Originally Posted by seban View Post
    Any suggested setting to start from for 11xxmhz for Dominator?
    - Ratio CMOS Setting : 8.5
    FSB Frequency : 471
    CPU Clock Skew : Normal
    North Bridge Clock Skew : Normal
    FSB Strap to North Bridge : 333
    DRAM Frequency: DDR2-1140

    CAS# Latency : 5
    RAS# to CAS# Delay : 5
    RAS# Precharge : 5
    RAS# ActivateTime : 15
    RAS# to RAS# Delay : 3
    Row Refresh Cycle Time : 55
    Write Recovery Time : 6
    Read to Precharge Time : 3

    Read to Write Delay (S/D) : 8
    Write to Read Delay (S) : 3
    Write to Read Delay (D) : 5
    Read to Read Delay (S) : 4
    Read to Read Delay (D) : 6
    Write to Write Delay (S) : 4
    Write to Write Delay (D) : 6

    Write to PRE Delay : 14
    Read to PRE Delay : 5
    PRE to PRE Delay : 1
    ALL PRE to ACT Delay : 5
    ALL PRE to REF Delay : 5

    DRAM Static Read Control: Enabled
    Dram Read Training : Disabled
    MEM OC Charger : Enabled
    Ai Clock Twister : Stronger
    Transaction Booster : Manual

    Common Performance Level [8]

    You might have to up vNB

  8. #2233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grnfinger View Post
    - Ratio CMOS Setting : 8.5
    FSB Frequency : 471
    CPU Clock Skew : Normal
    North Bridge Clock Skew : Normal
    FSB Strap to North Bridge : 333
    DRAM Frequency: DDR2-1140

    CAS# Latency : 5
    RAS# to CAS# Delay : 5
    RAS# Precharge : 5
    RAS# ActivateTime : 15
    RAS# to RAS# Delay : 3
    Row Refresh Cycle Time : 55
    Write Recovery Time : 6
    Read to Precharge Time : 3

    Read to Write Delay (S/D) : 8
    Write to Read Delay (S) : 3
    Write to Read Delay (D) : 5
    Read to Read Delay (S) : 4
    Read to Read Delay (D) : 6
    Write to Write Delay (S) : 4
    Write to Write Delay (D) : 6

    Write to PRE Delay : 14
    Read to PRE Delay : 5
    PRE to PRE Delay : 1
    ALL PRE to ACT Delay : 5
    ALL PRE to REF Delay : 5

    DRAM Static Read Control: Enabled
    Dram Read Training : Disabled
    MEM OC Charger : Enabled
    Ai Clock Twister : Stronger
    Transaction Booster : Manual

    Common Performance Level [8]

    You might have to up vNB
    Thanks will test them now
    q9550 e0 (lapped) - 3.98@1.326v - True Black (lapped + washer mod) + 2x NF-P12
    MF2 - 1802 (washer mod), 2x2 8500 Dominator @1115, Corsair HX 850w
    BFG 216 OCX 710/1480/1240 Acer 2216w, Samsung 40" 1080p,
    Antec P180 + 3x NF-P12, 1TB WD Black + 3x 500GB WD AAKS
    ASUS Xonar D2

  9. #2234
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    - Ratio CMOS Setting : 8.5
    FSB Frequency : 471
    CPU Clock Skew : Normal
    North Bridge Clock Skew : Normal
    FSB Strap to North Bridge : 333
    DRAM Frequency: DDR2-1140

    CAS# Latency : 5
    RAS# to CAS# Delay : 5
    RAS# Precharge : 5
    RAS# ActivateTime : 15
    RAS# to RAS# Delay : 3
    Row Refresh Cycle Time : 55
    Write Recovery Time : 6
    Read to Precharge Time : 3

    Read to Write Delay (S/D) : 8
    Write to Read Delay (S) : 3
    Write to Read Delay (D) : 5
    Read to Read Delay (S) : 4
    Read to Read Delay (D) : 6
    Write to Write Delay (S) : 4
    Write to Write Delay (D) : 6

    Write to PRE Delay : 14
    Read to PRE Delay : 5
    PRE to PRE Delay : 1
    ALL PRE to ACT Delay : 5
    ALL PRE to REF Delay : 5

    DRAM Static Read Control: Enabled
    Dram Read Training : Disabled
    MEM OC Charger : Enabled
    Ai Clock Twister : Stronger
    Transaction Booster : Manual

    Common Performance Level [8]
    Hey, thanks for that post Grnfinger. I myself will be getting a 2x2 1066 Dominator kit soon. But I'll be running my Q9650 at 430x9 for 24/7. I hope I could still run it without problems with using my 400x9 settings.
    Intel i7 950 D0 @ 4Ghz 23x175
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  10. #2235
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    Just a quick question.

    So I experienced the infamous bug of vNb>vtt+X.

    And the question if I undesrstand correctly from manual I can reset CMOS in 3 ways.

    With all cables unpluged, with power cable pluged and electricty runnig throu it and finnally with PC running :O ??

    Am I correct or did I mixed it up. And which way is the best/safest or there is no difference?
    Last edited by seban; 12-07-2008 at 08:31 AM.
    q9550 e0 (lapped) - 3.98@1.326v - True Black (lapped + washer mod) + 2x NF-P12
    MF2 - 1802 (washer mod), 2x2 8500 Dominator @1115, Corsair HX 850w
    BFG 216 OCX 710/1480/1240 Acer 2216w, Samsung 40" 1080p,
    Antec P180 + 3x NF-P12, 1TB WD Black + 3x 500GB WD AAKS
    ASUS Xonar D2

  11. #2236
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    Quote Originally Posted by seban View Post
    Just a quick question.

    So I experienced the infamous bug of vNb>vtt+X.

    And the question if I undesrstand correctly from manual I can reset CMOS in 3 ways.

    With all cables unpluged, with power cable pluged and electricty runnig throu it and finnally with PC running :O ??

    Am I correct or did I mixed it up. And which way is the best/safest or there is no difference?
    Once the bios loads, you could actually remove the bios chip if you wanted to, if it wasnt solderd in.
    I preffer to power down and clear cmos, there is no need to unplug the psu from the wall.

  12. #2237
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    just turn of your pc and turn of the power on your psu...and then push the clearcmos-button
    Edit: Dr.Greenthumb was before me
    1.pc: Evga 4way, 980X, 3x5870, 3x2 1600mhz GT
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  13. #2238
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    Quote Originally Posted by seban View Post
    Just a quick question.

    So I experienced the infamous bug of vNb>vtt+X.

    And the question if I undesrstand correctly from manual I can reset CMOS in 3 ways.

    With all cables unpluged, with power cable pluged and electricty runnig throu it and finnally with PC running :O ??

    Am I correct or did I mixed it up. And which way is the best/safest or there is no difference?
    well best reset is power off ure computer with ure casing/mobo off button
    shutdown ure psu
    and press star/on button for a quick release of all the current left
    and then start ure psu and press on...

    started with all the p45 and RE.
    but geee shorten a lot of headaches with the RE from what i learned from m2f..
    so cpu voltages is out of the equation..
    yeah would love a new bios for m2f

    aka this is better than the clear cmos..
    heck havent had to a clear cmos for a long time kekeke..
    this will force the bios to default value while keeping ure previous clocks setting intact.

    also its written in the manual
    as this is the way to do it..
    suppose to be some chipset limitation for overclocking failure recovery.
    remembered reading that when was testing the p5qdeluxe and p5q3 test samples before the m2f came out
    Last edited by cstkl1; 12-07-2008 at 08:52 AM.

  14. #2239
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    Someone mind posting up the best RAM settings in the BIOS for maximum RAM stability? Tweaks on auto or disabled? Twister auto or lighter? I've gotten to the point where all I want is a stable CPU overclock, the RAM bandwidth has been shelved if you will.

    Thanks
    3930K Asus Sabertooth X79/ 2x Kingston Hyper X SSD in RAID 0/ 12 GB crucial tracer 1600/ 2x gtx 470

  15. #2240
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    333 fsb strap
    500 fsb
    8 multi
    1000 mem
    1.35-1.45 NB
    1.2 VTT/FSB v
    1.54 PLL v
    Perf Level 8

    Is this a good starting point for 4gz and 500fsb with my setup (in signature)? Any opinions/ideas?

    Thanks
    "High Quality is never an accident. It is always the result of excellent intention, intelligent direction, sincere effort and skillful execution. It represents the wisest choice of many alternatives"

    System Specs:
    R3E + custom 1601 bios / XEON X5650 6-Cores @ 4ghz / G-Skill RipJaws 12GB Kit / Asus Radeon HD EAH5870 / Crucial C300 x 2 R0 + 2 x Samsung 840 Pro's on ICH / Logitech Z-5500 5.1 / Ultra X3 1000w PSU
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  16. #2241
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    if your using the 1:1 divider (1000)mem youll need to use pl10
    _________________________________________________
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  17. #2242
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    Quote Originally Posted by radaja View Post
    if your using the 1:1 divider (1000)mem youll need to use pl10
    lol, I was going to ad that it wont boot below pl10. so your correct sir... thx

    Ai Overclock Tuner : Manual
    CPU Ratio Control : 8
    FSB Frequency : 500
    CPU Clock Skew : Auto
    North Bridge Clock Skew : Auto
    FSB Strap to North Bridge : 333mhz
    DRAM Frequency: DDR2-1002MHz
    Dram Clock Skew CH1 A1 : Auto
    DRAM Clock Skew CH1 A2 : Auto
    Dram Clock Skew CH1 B1 : Auto
    Dram Clock Skew CH1 B2 : Auto

    DRAM Timing Control: Auto

    DRAM Static Read Control: Disabled
    Dram Read Training : Disabled
    MEM OC Charger : Auto
    Ai Clock Twister : Auto
    Transaction Booster : Manual

    Common Performance Level [10]

    PCIE Frequency : 100

    CPU Voltage : Auto
    CPU PLL Voltage : 1.53975
    FSB Term : 1.209
    DRAM Voltage : 1.8
    North Bridge Voltage : 1.35175
    South Bridge Voltage 1.5 : 1.5
    South Bridge Voltage 1.1 : 1.10

    Load Line Calibration : Disabled
    CPU Spread Spectrum : Disabled
    PCIE Spread Spectrum : Disabled

    Everything else unchanged from defaults.

    Fails to load bios and fails to boot. What am I doing wrong here?
    Last edited by SkOrPn; 12-07-2008 at 08:53 PM.
    "High Quality is never an accident. It is always the result of excellent intention, intelligent direction, sincere effort and skillful execution. It represents the wisest choice of many alternatives"

    System Specs:
    R3E + custom 1601 bios / XEON X5650 6-Cores @ 4ghz / G-Skill RipJaws 12GB Kit / Asus Radeon HD EAH5870 / Crucial C300 x 2 R0 + 2 x Samsung 840 Pro's on ICH / Logitech Z-5500 5.1 / Ultra X3 1000w PSU
    Water Cooling by:
    Swiftech Apogee GTZ / EK FC5870 Acetal+Copper / Swiftech MCP655 / ThermoChill PA120.3 / 6 Gentle Typhoons AP-15 / XSPC Dual Bay Res
    PrimoFlex Pro LRT UV Green 1/2" / XSPC Black Chrome Compression Fittings
    Misc:
    SilverStone TJ07 / 24" Dell UltraSharp / Yadda Yadda lol...

  18. #2243
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    i really hope i get my maximusII back from RMA by friday.and im praying that they send me a NEW one ,thats not warped in any way.very flat. i really hate flying blind when it comes to temperatures.
    _________________________________________________
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  19. #2244
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    After 3 weeks of testing I gave up for 8x565 . This is for now I will wait for new BIOS.

    Q9650 CPU @ 4.410GHz (9*490) | ASUS Maximus II Formula | 2*2GB OCZ Blade LV 1200, 5-5-5-15@1230Mhz | 750GB Hitachi | ASUS 9800GTX+ (850/1300/2000) | Water cooled Coolermaster Cosmos S & Hiper 670W | NEC MultiSync® 20WGX2Pro

  20. #2245
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    Quote Originally Posted by radaja View Post
    i really hope i get my maximusII back from RMA by friday.and im praying that they send me a NEW one ,thats not warped in any way.very flat. i really hate flying blind when it comes to temperatures.
    M8 I got two MF2 ATM in house and both are warped as hell. The new one which I bought because first one was warped is even more warped :/.

    As I discovered they are both straight, it is heat pipe in Power area that warp them.

    I am sending today one back.
    q9550 e0 (lapped) - 3.98@1.326v - True Black (lapped + washer mod) + 2x NF-P12
    MF2 - 1802 (washer mod), 2x2 8500 Dominator @1115, Corsair HX 850w
    BFG 216 OCX 710/1480/1240 Acer 2216w, Samsung 40" 1080p,
    Antec P180 + 3x NF-P12, 1TB WD Black + 3x 500GB WD AAKS
    ASUS Xonar D2

  21. #2246
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkOrPn View Post
    lol, I was going to ad that it wont boot below pl10. so your correct sir... thx

    Ai Overclock Tuner : Manual
    CPU Ratio Control : 8
    FSB Frequency : 500
    CPU Clock Skew : Auto
    North Bridge Clock Skew : Auto
    FSB Strap to North Bridge : 333mhz
    DRAM Frequency: DDR2-1002MHz
    Dram Clock Skew CH1 A1 : Auto
    DRAM Clock Skew CH1 A2 : Auto
    Dram Clock Skew CH1 B1 : Auto
    Dram Clock Skew CH1 B2 : Auto

    DRAM Timing Control: Auto

    DRAM Static Read Control: Disabled
    Dram Read Training : Disabled
    MEM OC Charger : Auto
    Ai Clock Twister : Auto
    Transaction Booster : Manual

    Common Performance Level [10]

    PCIE Frequency : 100

    CPU Voltage : Auto
    CPU PLL Voltage : 1.53975
    FSB Term : 1.209
    DRAM Voltage : 1.8
    North Bridge Voltage : 1.35175
    South Bridge Voltage 1.5 : 1.5
    South Bridge Voltage 1.1 : 1.10

    Load Line Calibration : Disabled
    CPU Spread Spectrum : Disabled
    PCIE Spread Spectrum : Disabled

    Everything else unchanged from defaults.

    Fails to load bios and fails to boot. What am I doing wrong here?
    Try to change your Ram voltage to 1.9..

    Also set a value for your cpu voltage.

    --------------------

    You have 2 more options

    Try for 7.5*533 Rams 1066 1:1 PL10 ..you wil get ~9600K Read

    Or 9*455 Rams 1140 (mine 1100 PI have done 11h dual prime at 570 with 2-2.05V)

    Click image for larger version. 

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  22. #2247
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    yea seban,seame boat as you two boards both warped. on my first one it was warped where the i/o sheild was and i think it was the heat pipe assembly was the culprit too. thats why im hoping to get a straight and flat one for my third board. cause i know they exist.few people here on this forum have said theirs were as flat as a board.good luck on your replacement M8.
    _________________________________________________
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  23. #2248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevin View Post
    After 3 weeks of testing I gave up for 8x565 . This is for now I will wait for new BIOS.

    u know .. i found out the issue.. but not really solved it with clocking the re to get the gtl somewhat stable for 563 fsb

    this is what i had to do for RE
    cpu skew 200
    nb skew normal

    cmd channel a del 75
    clk channel A1/A2 Del 100
    clt channel A1/A2 del 100

    cmd channel b del 100
    clk channel a1/a2 del 100
    clt channel a1/a2 del 75

    vtt - 1.29
    cpu 0 gtl+40

    dont have any more m2f to test and now concentrating on re and re2.
    but try the above on wherever options u can
    the cpu skew 200
    and nb skew normal was the important part to get the vtt stable.
    infact actually with it can even bench at vtt 1.12v
    so far with ibt i am down to two different residuals at the moment..
    still wondering why its always those two only. 3.***002, 1.9***007
    will try to get another m2f for christmas..

  24. #2249
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Lil Brittany (far west .fr)
    Posts
    225
    Wow!! Ya ain't lucky m8, both warped ?? Mine was flat as a marble washers 'n new thermal paste maked me lose 10° on the NB
    At yur opinion, don't you feel there's a real problem with the assembling of this board ?? Is there a worst mobo in terms of production quality ? (joke...or note !!)

    At least : WHERE IS MY BIOS ???!!!!! WHERE IS MY MF BIOS ???!!!!! WHERE IS MY MFOB BIOS ???!!!!!

    Raaah!! Guess they would give up their X58 bioses a moment for our ??? (...just for ram increase, please... )
    Klan-OC Team .fr

    - ASUS M5G/M4G - GIGABYTE GA-P55/67A-UD7 - EVGA P55 FTW - GA-EP45-UD3P -
    - INTEL i7 3770 & 2600K/i5 750/i5 661 & i3 530/E8600/E6800/E6500K +CORSAIR H70 or THERMALRIGHT TrueBlack 120 (Full WC/SS/Cascade/LN˛ optional ^^) -
    - G.SKILL TridentX PC3 2400C10 (2x4gb)/Ripjaws X PC3 17600C7 & PerfectStorm PC3 17066C8[/B] (2x2gb)/CRUCIAL Value PC3 10700 (2x1gb @880 cas6)
    CRUCIAL BallistiX Tracer PC8500 (2x1gb @704 cas5) -
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    THE AMOUNT OF HW ISN'T REPRESENTATIVE OF YOUR SKILLZ ...IF YOU'RE THE KING OF THE HILL, PROVE IT THOUGH!!

  25. #2250
    Xtreme Cruncher
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    pacific NW usa
    Posts
    2,764
    just speaking from my own experience yes.horrible craftmanship.but i have hope,that ill get one that is very well assembled.
    _________________________________________________
    ............................ImAcOmPuTeRsPoNgE............................
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    MY HEATWARE 76-0-0

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