Phenom II info leaks out, AMD hints at something

**LowRun** · 11-20-2008, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Oj101

Yeah, we all know that enthusiasts are world class engineers

Some of them are, that's why they end up getting jobs in IT corps, happened to few XS members so i don't know what's so funny about it

**[XC] Oj101** · 11-20-2008, 06:07 AM

It's just the way it was worded made it sound like being an enthusiast made you an engineer

**Calmatory** · 11-20-2008, 06:41 AM

Like AMD needs some random overclocker with LN2 to get their chips working with lower temperatures.

Does the overclocker tell them how to fine tune their process and fix few glitches in the march?

**Particle** · 11-20-2008, 07:06 AM

I imagine it's more like "What is it you like to see? What is your process for overclocking?" Be certain that the engineers designing these chips often aren't world-class overclockers. They're world-class CPU engineers, and there's a bit of a disconnect there. By getting input from real-world enthusiasts, they can do their engineering magic to accommodate certain chip behavior if they want to.

It doesn't sound far-fetched to me at all. We see it all the time with motherboard manufacturers hiring overclockers to do testing. Why would it be absurd in the realm of CPUs?

**[XC] Oj101** · 11-20-2008, 07:16 AM

AMDs have had a nasty coldbug since the 90nm A64s, I'm SURE this isn't the frst AMD's heard of it and I'm sure they know it's an issue to enthusiasts. Why collaborate with enthusiasts for them (the enthusiasts) to tell them what has been common knowledge for all this time?

**Particle** · 11-20-2008, 07:25 AM

Let's be real, Oj101, it was probably a lot more involved than:

"Hello, AMD guys!"

"Nice to meet you!"

"Cold bug!"

"Oh, ok! We'll fix it!"

"Bye!"

"See you!"

I'll counter you with a why not and my expanded scope/involvement. There's not really any compelling reason not to see what the WC OCers are doing in detail if they want to appeal to enthusiasts. Getting frequencies up is one thing. Getting a chip to respond favorably to the techniques in use is a bit of another.

**Insanity** · 11-20-2008, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Oj101

AMDs have had a nasty coldbug since the 90nm A64s, I'm SURE this isn't the frst AMD's heard of it and I'm sure they know it's an issue to enthusiasts. Why collaborate with enthusiasts for them (the enthusiasts) to tell them what has been common knowledge for all this time?

Because being an engineer doesn't make you a world class subzero overclocker, and so collaborating with these enthusiasts allows you to test your new processor with this sort of cooling under real enthusiast conditions by providing them samples, and then reporting the results to the actual engineers maybe?

**cegras** · 11-20-2008, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Insanity

Because being an engineer doesn't make you a world class subzero overclocker, and so collaborating with these enthusiasts allows you to test your new processor with this sort of cooling under real enthusiast conditions by providing them samples, and then reporting the results to the actual engineers maybe?

Or maybe they don't care about anyone using sub zero cooling. I certainly really wouldn't.

**Helmore** · 11-20-2008, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by LOE

if you look at enthusiast cooling from any other point of view except enthusiast... it is a waste of time and money - why?

cuz with the money you spend for a quality LN2 cooler, you can actually buy a multi socket system, multiple GFX cards, more memory, and you will instantly get better performance,and you won't waste you time and nerve with dealing with something so problematic

LN2 is for setting records, it is not about performance, it's xtremesystems here, but I bet 99% of the people here use air or water coolers, so imagine if enthusiast are 5% of the total market, then imagine only 1% of those 5% actually goes bellow zero...

I somehow don't image AMD will have a top priority dealing with something 0.05% of their user base has problems with, they will probably spend more money fixing the issue that they will make if they make all the LN2 users in the world happy

It does not really benefit them directly, but if they keep the enthusiasts happy then this will work in their favor. They probably won't set any performance records when the chip can be run at LN2 temps, but it still be attractive to many overclockers if they can use it under LN2, even if it is just for some fun. This will get AMD in a more positive light for those particular enthusiast and they will do the talking for AMD. A bit of a marketing strategy as enthusiasts are probably the most vocal group of customers and enthusiast have quite a bit of influence on the consumer market.

**Calmatory** · 11-20-2008, 07:37 AM

AFAIK the cold bug was one of SOI side effects. I'd like AMD to come closer us though.

**Helmore** · 11-20-2008, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Calmatory

AFAIK the cold bug was one of SOI side effects. I'd like AMD to come closer us though.

I doubt that, there is absolutely no info to support that claim.

**Calmatory** · 11-20-2008, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Helmore

I doubt that, there is absolutely no info to support that claim.

I have none either, but I recall reading something about it in some random AMD thread. Though, I agree that it could be very well possible that what I read was false and it could be possible that I don't recall it properly or I could've misunderstood the whole point or...

Edit: Did some googling and it turns out that SOI indeed has nothing to do with this.

**LowRun** · 11-20-2008, 08:09 AM

I'm not even saying they are trying to fix something like a cold bug but when you have someone like Macci in the house, i just can't see what would be wrong about asking him to have some freezing sessions and report his findings, then in the design process they could be lucky and find a light modification that is not too costly and helps a lot with cold bug. Or maybe they just don't care

**Helmore** · 11-20-2008, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Calmatory

I have none either, but I recall reading something about it in some random AMD thread. Though, I agree that it could be very well possible that what I read was false and it could be possible that I don't recall it properly or I could've misunderstood the whole point or...

Edit: Did some googling and it turns out that SOI indeed has nothing to do with this.

Every CPU has a coldbug at some temperature, but for some it's at such a low temperature that you won't ever reach it with LN2.
It is possible to go subzero with the current Phenom chips like this one:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=206289
But it still has a cold bug somewhere, just not at the temperatures that he was reaching.
The same was for certain Penryn quad-cores at the start of this year, some would crash when used under LN2 and some were fine. It's just that Intel's 'coldbug temperature' has always been much lower than AMD's and that's why it's much more obvious on AMD chips.

**Calmatory** · 11-20-2008, 08:37 AM

Yes, indeed, But wasn't it K8 which brought severe coldbug for AMD? E.g. K7 was much more flexible under subzero cooling and could go far beyond where K8 got bugged.

**Hornet331** · 11-20-2008, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by BrowncoatGR

i guess you missed this part

nope i dont missed that.

Amd/ibm already had 7 times better channle leakage values on 65nm process then intel.

Amd had the edege in channle leakage ever since they used SOI.

**Rammsteiner** · 11-20-2008, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by BrowncoatGR

That's just Theo talking. I won't believe that until i see benches

Ah crap, why ruin my satisfaction. Completely forgot about the author

Originally Posted by Helmore

Could you tell me how the current Angena's react under some LN2? This is what biohead said:

Is there any more proof of this?

I dont know man, I dont use sub zero. Only things Ive heard off is that some AMD CPU's had to be in between 0 and 20C in order to get the best results.

**Newblar** · 11-20-2008, 11:22 AM

http://www.pcper.com/comments.php?nid=6455

Update: The Phenom II reached 6 GHz+ at 1.9v on liquid nitrogen (boiling point -321F/-196C at 1 atm). Testing looks to have been done on a Gigabyte 790GX motherboard that is currently available.

**STaRGaZeR** · 11-20-2008, 11:33 AM

Update: The Phenom II reached 6 GHz+ at 1.9v on liquid nitrogen (boiling point -321F/-196C at 1 atm). Testing looks to have been done on a Gigabyte 790GX motherboard that is currently available.

**Shintai** · 11-20-2008, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Newblar

http://www.pcper.com/comments.php?nid=6455

Would be nice with some validation tho.

**Karolis** · 11-20-2008, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR

Agreed.

I wonder how would ocing results change if they used an 790FX mobo (e.g. ASUS M3A79-T Deluxe). Anyway, 6+ GHz is an astonishing result.

**Solus Corvus** · 11-20-2008, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Newblar

http://www.pcper.com/comments.php?nid=6455

Now this is much better then a slide. Impressive result AMD and OCers.

**biohead** · 11-20-2008, 03:36 PM

that almost sounds surreal. can't wait.

**informal** · 11-20-2008, 05:58 PM

Looks awesome.January can't come soon enough!And after that,we get AM3/DDR3 loving with lower TDP and hopefully even better OCing potential.AMD's CTI is on play here,big time.

**lxq_ikrana** · 11-21-2008, 11:35 PM

The Inq reports they got the phenom up to 6.3 on LN. Pretty impressive if true.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...-phenom-ii-ghz

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