Fan's & Rads & shrouds

[leathal]

I have a question about fans and rads, is there a method for messuring the air flow that exits a rad? I am going to get a UFO case and two Thermchill 3 fan rads, I am also going to buy Delta 252 CFM fans for rad side what faces the inside of the case. The plan is to stick 6 LED fans (Low noise high CFM) on the otherside of the RAD since Delta doesn't make LED ones and the air flow exiting the rad in all likely hood will not be 252 CFM. Does anyone know what the air flow will be or know how to figure it out?

I am also thinking of putting shrouds on but do them make them with a slope on the edges?

THanks
Leathal

[XS_RoB]

Man - your gonna need some ear plugs for that Box! or a Massive Fan Controller!

But seriously - I would be worried with a 252 delta on one side and a cheap LED fan on the other - for the simple fact of possibly burning up the LED fan. (I dunno though, that just makes since to me. Doesnt mean Im right)

But your in for some serious cooling if you have enough HEAT LOAD. But with the PA120.3 series and SUPER HIGH cfm fans. You will reach a point of diminishing returns. Meaning your only gonna cool so much, per fan noise ratio.

Post some pics when you up and running!

& Good Luck!

RoB

[leathal]

Man - your gonna need some ear plugs for that Box! or a Massive Fan Controller!

But seriously - I would be worried with a 252 delta on one side and a cheap LED fan on the other - for the simple fact of possibly burning up the LED fan. (I dunno though, that just makes since to me. Doesnt mean Im right)

But your in for some serious cooling if you have enough HEAT LOAD. But with the PA120.3 series and SUPER HIGH cfm fans. You will reach a point of diminishing returns. Meaning your only gonna cool so much, per fan noise ratio.

Post some pics when you up and running!

& Good Luck!

RoB

Agreed you can only cool so much until you have to get into using a liquid coolant of some type.

I wish there was a away to cancel out some of the noise.

Leathal

[gojirasan]

Why pair high speed deltas with thermochills? Does not compute. The PA series wasn't designed for that. A hardware labs GTX radiator is what you should be looking at. But even on the GTX you are going to have diminishing returns at those speeds. Is the computer going to be in a different room from the monitor and keyboard? Are you just planning to bench with this setup?

As for the shroud, I'm not even sure they are available anymore. Unless you plan to order direct form Thermochill in England. I am currently making a shroud myself using 1/8" plywood, a 4 1/2" hole saw, and 1/2" x 1/16" inch aluminum bar for making L brackets. Be aware that the consensus at the moment seems to be that pull/pull is a bit better than push/pull. Seems like pull/pull or even pull/pull/pull with a 4" deep shroud (to avoid the hub shadow effect) would be a nearly ideal setup. The Thermochill shroud is only 40mm deep and I am skeptical that that is enough to avoid the hub shadow effect. So it is probably better to make your own anyway. I'm not sure what you mean by a slope on the edges and I can't imagine why you would want anything other than an airtight box with perfectly straight sides for your shroud. Another problem you may want to think about is your shroud seal. I'm having a bit of trouble with that myself

[leathal]

Why pair high speed deltas with thermochills? Does not compute. The PA series wasn't designed for that. A hardware labs GTX radiator is what you should be looking at. But even on the GTX you are going to have diminishing returns at those speeds. Is the computer going to be in a different room from the monitor and keyboard? Are you just planning to bench with this setup?

As for the shroud, I'm not even sure they are available anymore. Unless you plan to order direct form Thermochill in England. I am currently making a shroud myself using 1/8" plywood, a 4 1/2" hole saw, and 1/2" x 1/16" inch aluminum bar for making L brackets. Be aware that the consensus at the moment seems to be that pull/pull is a bit better than push/pull. Seems like pull/pull or even pull/pull/pull with a 4" deep shroud (to avoid the hub shadow effect) would be a nearly ideal setup. The Thermochill shroud is only 40mm deep and I am skeptical that that is enough to avoid the hub shadow effect. So it is probably better to make your own anyway. I'm not sure what you mean by a slope on the edges and I can't imagine why you would want anything other than an airtight box with perfectly straight sides for your shroud. Another problem you may want to think about is your shroud seal. I'm having a bit of trouble with that myself

Plan to run it on my room. :-)

What do you suggestion then for fans? I was thinking of taking the coolant from one rad and running it through another one before running it through the system. Finding fans at 110CFM that are quiet is hard, also the 90CFM ones that are listed on CoolerMaster's website are only available in Europe and not in North America, so do you think I could find a place online that sells them in Europe? NO. I even email their Netherlands office who "read" my email but never replied. (sigh)

LEathal

[eXa]

What on earth are u planning to cool? with 2 120.3 rads all u need is yate loon fans. even if ur cooling a quad and 2 high end video card. You can even run them at a lower speed and get almost complete silence.

[gojirasan]

I would say Ultra Kaze 3000RPM or if you have a bit more cash the Sanyo Denki San Ace. Either fan is quite loud at 12 volts. I have the San Ace and to me it is bearable at full speed, but not pleasant. I have the 2000 RPM version of the ultra kaze so I'm not sure how loud the 3000rpm version is but Martin has described it as vacuum cleaner like. Frankly I'm not sure the San Ace is really worth it at nearly 3 times the price of the Ultra Kaze.

[leathal]

PA120.3's were designed for <100 cfm fans... The point of the PA rad, is the effectiveness it has at cooling with low speed fans...

Pull/pull or push/pull is also uneccessary. It's all about the static pressure...

I have (3) PA120.3's with (9) Yate Loon D-12SM fans in a pull configuration...

Nicx has plenty of PA shrnuds in stock...

Hey HEY!

You are the same guy who is building a new UFO case aren't you? It looks like you have some kind of damping spacer between the fans and the rads, is this true and what have you go?

My plan is to do a push and pull setup with blue LED fans to be on the front of the rads pulling the air out while the ones on the back pushing the air through.

The fastest fans I have found that are pretty quiet are the Coolermaster performance fans - 90CFM / 19dBa (I think). The problem is I don't know were to get them, I have seen a few sites in co.nz thta sell them but since I live in Canada I don't know which ones I can trust.

I contacted CoolerMaster netherlands/germany office asking them for suppliers that would carry them, then read my message but never got back to me... how coolermaster makes money is beyond me!

LEathal

[leathal]

That would be me...

Yate Loon makes some very nice LED fans, check them out on Petrastechshop.com

If you go push/pull, IMO you'll be doing more harm than good. PULL is the perfered method.

I bought extra TC neoprene gaskets and plan on using them like this... case/gasket/rad/shroud/gasket/fan...

Hope this helped...

UFO's 120mm fan hole's are cut for Thermochill rads, if you insist on going push/pull you'd be better off using a Black Ice rad...

Why is push and pull not good?

Leathal

[John Planet]

If you go push/pull, IMO you'll be doing more harm than good. PULL is the perfered method.

I've read lots of opinions on push\pull, but I can't say I've ever heard that this configuration was in any way or degree, harmful. If fact I read an article, which I tried to find before posting, that indicated that push/pull increases air flow through a rad by a substantial degree.

I'm running 6 Noctua P12's on a PA 120.3, case>fans>gasket>rad>shroud>fans, and my temps across the load spectrum are sterling, and this with 54CFM fans.

[Vapor]

A 252CFM fan paired with 50CFM fans will behave just like the 252CFM fan...or within like 1-2&#37;. There might be some weird noise though.

I don't understand what's bad with push/pull either? Every test I've ever done (both anecdotal and published) shows a nice increase in airflow with matched and nearly-matched fans for not much more noise

Other than that....why on God's green earth would you use 3 MONSTER fans?! I don't think you understand the type of noise that will come from those fans. Your neighbors might even hear them. You won't be able to hold a conversation in your room. You probably couldn't even hold a shouting match in your room. :-/

They're GREAT air movers and very well built. But they simply are not acoustically economical. Heck, they don't even undervolt well (on a rheobus, big ing variable resistor (BFVR), regular BFR, or really any other method of fan control) either so forget about lowering their RPM to control the noise. That massive amount of airflow isn't particularly necessary either. Nor is a PA rad a good use of that much airflow.

Find some nice ~1600RPM fans and you'll be only a few degrees off and your room will have a nice, mostly-quiet hum coming from a high-performing beast of a computer. Or if you want LED fans...do push/pull with LEDs on both sides of the rad

[John Planet]

Read the fans he is planning on using in push/pull... IMO, the static pressures will create problems...

Wording of "harmful" was meant as "not helping to achieve near ambient temps." Last time I checked, the main goal of "LIQUID COOLING" was to get as close to ambient as possible...

BTW, IMO you spent way too much $$$ on fans, especially when YL D-12SM suffice to achieve good performance...

I read the OP. My response was intended to address precisely what you said, and nothing more. Your statement WAS fairly all-encompassing, yes?

I've liquid cooled for about 8-years. I understand the theory and intent quite well.

I'm sure I could say the same about a purchase or two that you've made, if I was inclined to offer unsolicted comments on such things.

[Jamestuk]

I doubt you will need more than quiet fans. I get no difference in temperatures when I add in extra fans on the other side of my rads.

You should probably match the fans either side if you do go for push-pull.

[gojirasan]

Martin did a test that found that pull/pull (without shroud) essentially doubled the static pressure for 25mm fans. That sounds pretty effective to me. Push without a shroud is going to have a very large dead spot in front of the hub, especially with a 38mm fan. I'm not sure why this LED thing is so important to you. It really limits your selection of fans. Just buy separate LEDs and hot glue them to the fans wherever you want them. There are also small LEDs that mount on a small swivel which you can aim wherever you want for spotlight effects both inside and outside the case.

[John Planet]

LOL... Yeah, I admit I'm guilty of some "overkill" here and there...

And don't think I haven't noticed, and admired you for it!

[leathal]

Martin did a test that found that pull/pull (without shroud) essentially doubled the static pressure for 25mm fans. That sounds pretty effective to me. Push without a shroud is going to have a very large dead spot in front of the hub, especially with a 38mm fan. I'm not sure why this LED thing is so important to you. It really limits your selection of fans. Just buy separate LEDs and hot glue them to the fans wherever you want them. There are also small LEDs that mount on a small swivel which you can aim wherever you want for spotlight effects both inside and outside the case.

I may get these fans http://www.coolermaster.com/products...ate=36&id=4355 the problem is the only places that carry them are way out in New Zealand (I am in Canada btw), and Coolermaster are too newbish to reply to my emails telling me were else they supply them. They have read my emails (as I tag them)... sad they CoolerMaster are nothing but a bunch of newbies.

Anyhow if I can get get them I will buy a bunch. :-)

Leathal

[eXa]

90cfom and 19db... that rating is almost as bad as SilenX. NO WAY u get only 19db from a 2000rpm fan. it will be in the 30 something range. And u wont get 90cfm either. They look ok for a led fan tho. if u want a pwerful fan the ultra kazes are a very good choise. they undervolt ok. But u wont need that much anyways. Yate loon d12sl-12 is all u need. (1350rpm) but if u think u need abit more u can go with d12sm-12(1600rpm) instead. They undervolt almost as good as the sl ones. And i bet u cant measure the difference between the sm and ultra kaze fans on the pa rads.

[leathal]

90cfom and 19db... that rating is almost as bad as SilenX. NO WAY u get only 19db from a 2000rpm fan. it will be in the 30 something range. And u wont get 90cfm either. They look ok for a led fan tho. if u want a pwerful fan the ultra kazes are a very good choise. they undervolt ok. But u wont need that much anyways. Yate loon d12sl-12 is all u need. (1350rpm) but if u think u need abit more u can go with d12sm-12(1600rpm) instead. They undervolt almost as good as the sl ones. And i bet u cant measure the difference between the sm and ultra kaze fans on the pa rads.

Its all in the blade technology that coolermaster is using on the above fans.

Leathal

[Vapor]

Sorry...but I'm stepping out of this thread now...a SilenX is perfect for you

[Spawne32]

Its all in the blade technology that coolermaster is using on the above fans.

Leathal

[leathal]

Sorry...but I'm stepping out of this thread now...a SilenX is perfect for you

It's true.

The aircraft companies they could make a helicopter as quiet as the new Comanche is until they experimented with the main and tail rotor design. They don't use the same blade technology as you find in other helicopters from years ago and new ones today. Basically the point is the blade shape, size, and number of blades determines the noise level as well the air flow so it's not like this is anything new and unheard of, you just have to wake up and smell the coffee!

[iboomalot]

I would use the new FLEX 1900 rpm fans not terribly loud and moves decent air.

points of dimishing returns 400 rpm fans moving barely any air or on the flip side 252 CFM fans


quiet but hot or noisy and cool


I mean hell might as well go phase change the wattage alone on those high speed fans could power a small compressor LOL

[Spawne32]

It's true.

The aircraft companies they could make a helicopter as quiet as the new Comanche is until they experimented with the main and tail rotor design. They don't use the same blade technology as you find in other helicopters from years ago and new ones today. Basically the point is the blade shape, size, and number of blades determines the noise level as well the air flow so it's not like this is anything new and unheard of, you just have to wake up and smell the coffee!

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[eXa]

LMAO this thread is going downwards. If u really belive 19db\90cfm.... well.
Even without the fan itself, just the frame. 90cfm moving through a 120mm hole is produsing more noise than 19db. Add the fan wich is actually producing thoose "90cfm" and ur at helluwa lot more than 19db. Well... unless ur taking the reading in another room.

[Sparda]

I dont know how sensitive your ears are but most of the small amount of 12cm fans I tried before start buzzing above 1000-1300rpm regardless of which brand or blade they are.
All I can trust is the majority oppinion of the user of the fans.