GTX Corrosion

[IanY]

Perhaps,

But I think a bigger concern is that tap water (read H2O with heavy mineral content) is a much greater electrolyte. It has the ability to conduct current much easier which is the fondation of galvanic corrosion.

I'm not sure the small amount of minerals in any one WC fill is enough to erode a part that quickly, but it's more than enough to accelerate galvanic corrsion. Couple that with the fact the plating is under stress due to the artificial bowing of the GTX top and your asking for trouble. Take any crome plated tube that's flat and bend it into a U shape, watch the crome plating flake off for example.

And the whole MILSPEC debate is pretty funny to anyone that's been in the military under combat conditions especialy on a flight line (MOS 6123/13).

One things for sure, the potential for what happened in the pics (ugliest thing in WC history IMO) couldl have been avoided, but some companies never learn.

This isn't the first time Swiftech has been thru the AL corrosion issue. Last time it was anodized parts, and pretty much the same claim to begin with from what I can dig up.

andyc

That analysis was great, Andy. Makes perfect sense. MILSPEC doesn't always work under stress. I've seen M16 chambers jam up more than I care.

[NaeKuh]

WOW! You really don't have any clue as who works where.

Jedda is an Aussie and is nothing more than a consumer.
AFAIK, IanY does NOT work for Swiftech. Again, another consumer.
Mekrel, Is also another consumer. He does NOT work for Thermochill, that's Marci.

ROFL... Swiftech would go bankrupt if they had to hire iany full time.

Or Iany is in there to consolidate, and liquidate the Corporatation if he was working for them. I believe his job is something like that.

[Waterlogged]

Perhaps,

But I think a bigger concern is that tap water (read H2O with heavy mineral content) is a much greater electrolyte. It has the ability to conduct current much easier which is the fondation of galvanic corrosion.

I'm not sure the small amount of minerals in any one WC fill is enough to erode a part that quickly, but it's more than enough to accelerate galvanic corrsion. Couple that with the fact the plating is under stress due to the artificial bowing of the GTX top and your asking for trouble. Take any crome plated tube that's flat and bend it into a U shape, watch the crome plating flake off for example.

And the whole MILSPEC debate is pretty funny to anyone that's been in the military under combat conditions especialy on a flight line (MOS 6123/13).

One things for sure, the potential for what happened in the pics (ugliest thing in WC history IMO) couldl have been avoided, but some companies never learn.

This isn't the first time Swiftech has been thru the AL corrosion issue. Last time it was anodized parts, and pretty much the same claim to begin with from what I can dig up.

andyc

IIRC, the spec's on each plated layer was .0005 thick, this is not very thick at all. The easiest way for me to describe to everyone how thick that is, is by using the good old human hair analogy. The average human hair (top of head) is approx .003, if you were to slice it length wise into 6 equal strips, it would give you .0005. Both layers of plating would equal 2 of those strips. It wouldn't take very long for "heavy" water to destroy both layers of plating if it were moving close to 1GPM or higher. Heck, they even have CNC's that use water with "proper" abrasives to machine metal.

[rogueagent6]

I've seen M16 chambers jam up more than I care.

Generally, when they begin to jam, it's time to clean... But adding a little CLP will work in a pinch.

The M16 might not be a Garand, but it's still a good weapon.

Sorry, back on topic.

[yonton228]

LOL....Happen to see someones post over at [L]impOCP about this same exact topic.

That's what backfired here and why Gabe released a copper top recently.

The reason Swiftech released a copper top was because the idiots on XS screamed like banshees and he got tired of listening to their rants.

Anyways, I am glad that we have people willing to sacrifice time and $$ here such as Petra to bring some more "intelligent" insight on this matter. I cannot wait for the results.

**Edit** I wonder if it was posted by the same waterlogged that posted in this thread? I would hope not.


-yonton228/timmy

[eXa]

Gabe:

U where pretty confident that the plated alu should not be a problem at all and where kinda almost offended of the people who where bashing the alu and wanted copper or delrin instead. U refused to do anything with it as it was fine like it its.
U have released a copper replacement top later, but i feel ur meaning about it is something like: "Its not really needed, its just to satisfy the enthusiast", or something....

I know, it aint many cases of corrosion, but there is SOME! And some could be none if it was delrin instead.
And the longer the loop is running the bigger tha chance of corrosion, right?

Now u say that some additives is necessesary with the top,(is it because of the alu maybe? ) but do u really believe that 2 drops of PTnuke would have elimenated the corrosion? No!

Im not suprised to see this thread and im (still) not touching the gtx. (im getting a fuzion)

[yonton228]

Now u say that some additives is necessesary with the top,(is it because of the alu maybe? ) but do u really believe that 2 drops of PTnuke would have elimenated the corrosion? No!

Isn't PT-Nuke generally used for preventing things from growing? I believe you meant Pentosin or something along those lines?



-yonton228/timmy

[eXa]

PT nuke is and anti algae additive.. But it still is an additive

Edit: And in an all copper loop, thats all u need. Distilled water and a couple of drops of PT nuke...

[PRJ]

Seems very simular to a problem i had in my prevuis setup...

Innovatek G-Flow and Fluid XP does'nt mix...

[Waterlogged]

LOL....Happen to see someones post over at [L]impOCP about this same exact topic.



Anyways, I am glad that we have people willing to sacrifice time and $$ here such as Petra to bring some more "intelligent" insight on this matter. I cannot wait for the results.

**Edit** I wonder if it was posted by the same waterlogged that posted in this thread? I would hope not.


-yonton228/timmy

WOW! I have a doppelganger. I wonder who I ticked off enough to want to do that? Thanks for the heads up.

I don't go out of my way to visit them ([H]) unless a link is posted here. They're simply not worth my time. I have only 2 accounts with this nick, one is here and the other is @ DD, but I've since retired from there as only DD products are to be mentioned when the usual "what parts for my loop" question comes up.

[RickCain]

the only reason that the possibility of corrosion exists in this product is due to choices that were made by Swiftech.

Don't forget the blame the USER that bought it and didn't bother to take any means to minimum the risk of corrosion (actually accelerated it)...... It took two things to happen:

1. Switech to make the product
2. A consumer buying it that doesn't want to read instructions

Funny everyone rushes to the aid of a user that clearly shouldn't have bought the product if he wasn't going to bother reading the instructions or better yet use any common sense. Accountablity is a thing lost in this world.

[nikhsub1]

Accountablity is a thing lost in this world.

I'm the first to agree however, make it VERY clear that even though the top is milspec plated, that one MUST RUN ANTI CORROSIVE additives otherwise corrosion will occur, despite the treatment to the aluminum top. In all fairness Rick, your argument would be valid if the top was bare aluminum (which it should at this point be treated as). Shame that Swiftech said corrosion would never be an issue with this top. Wonder why they said that way back when, and now they are saying, 'Well, sure it will corrode with just distilled/tap water'.

[phelan1777]

I have been running my loop with all copper, except for the mixed GTX for about 4 months now, I have PT NUKE and Pentosin G11 in the loop. I will have to take down my loop and check out my block, to see if there is any change, if there is I will post pics. My system runs 24/7 so the blocks get a decent amount of abuse.

As is, I have 4 blocks in my loop, GTX, 2XMCW60, MCW30, as well as the Copper PA120.3, so in theory, there SHOULD be corrosion, but if not, what does that say?

The only thing I want is some assurance that my block won't corrode and after talking to Petra, and it being discussed that I have a corrosion inhibitor in the loop that I should be okay. I can not begin to count how many times, I have seen others state to use more then just water, because of the potential for trouble.

If someone doesn't follow well stated advice that is the fools fault, we all come here to XS for the information and its clearly stated time and time again.

Gabe, Petra, and Niksub i would wager to say have a pretty good idea of what they are talking about as many of us have waged bets with our money in buying from/through/because of them and others. If this were a bubble and it wereto collapse because of a simple oversight, no one is to blame as its all our faults, so we are all to blame.

All this finger pointing and bickering is childish we are not in the school yard arguing over if someone was out playing kickball.

[[XC] riptide]

ZOMG didn't you read how many times Waterlogged has had to say that plating and anodizing are not the same!!!

Dammit Man!



This thread is Legendary.

Face it the Copper Top is incredibly good looking. Nothing wrong with the GTX design..just needs the copper top and it's a work of art.

Druid.... when I said Anodize it was a suggestive alternative to Plating. AS a manu. process. If it can be done is the question?

[[XC] riptide]

Also, keep in mind that even if Swiftech claimed to never heard of that many corroded GTX, it's very possible that owners who got corrosion on their GTX/Stealth just silently toss it in the garbage can not knowing there is a warranty and buy a different one. That might add up if we can find out how much of those guys did it.

Thats what I did with mine. Bin. Was wondering why my pump was not pushing much water aorund and why the temps were getting higher and higher. One of the barbs was blocked where the corrosion built up at the plate.

[Borgod]

Don't forget the blame the USER that bought it and didn't bother to take any means to minimum the risk of corrosion (actually accelerated it)...... It took two things to happen:

I'm still waiting for proof that he indeed did not take 'any means to minimise the risk of corrosion'

Where does it say he used tap water/ no additive?

[Borgod]

Please explain?

[RickCain]

I'm the first to agree however, make it VERY clear that even though the top is milspec plated, that one MUST RUN ANTI CORROSIVE additives otherwise corrosion will occur, despite the treatment to the aluminum top. In all fairness Rick, your argument would be valid if the top was bare aluminum (which it should at this point be treated as). Shame that Swiftech said corrosion would never be an issue with this top. Wonder why they said that way back when, and now they are saying, 'Well, sure it will corrode with just distilled/tap water'.

Yeah, I remember some of the members from this forum preaching on [H] that it was "milspec" material, blah blah blah.

Now for a company to make a BOLD statement that corrosion would never be an issue is plain dumb. I did not see that comment.

I will however stand by my comment that I would NEVER use a product that bolts aluminum directly to copper.

[septim]

AMEN to that Phelan...

[Waterlogged]

Druid.... when I said Anodize it was a suggestive alternative to Plating. AS a manu. process. If it can be done is the question?

No, anodizing is by far, inferior to plating.

[nikhsub1]

A collection of past Swiftech posts (Gabe and OPPainter) regarding the GTX and corrosion from this thread: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=136661&page=1

I'm highlighting my favorite part in red.

Nickel/Zinc cobalt plated Aluminum:

We provide the MIL and ASTM specs on the plating of these housings. why hasn't anyone bothered to google these specs?

Please, let's review the facts (in this case the specs), before a hasty judgement is passed.

The treatment we give these parts is Military grade, and it is now being used by many other industries, including of course the Military. It's expensive, but well worth it.

here is the plating treatment sequence :

Wash/degrease
Caustic Etch
Acid Etch
De-oxydizer
Zincate primer
Electroless Nickel plating 12 micron
Zinc-cobalt plating 6 micron
Black die

I could justify this choice with 3 pages of technical explanations, but in final analysis: because I liked it! It's that simple.

And since I always put my money were my mouth is, the block is covered by a 5 year warranty.

We have been criticized in the past because we don't follow the bling trends (plexi tops etc..). I wanted to make something really beautiful, not bling, beautiful. So, while I do understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I also know that the proud owners of this block will be tempted to keep their case opened, just so that they can keep admiring it!

I don't know if this was mentioned before or not, but the fact is that the big wig engineers (smart guys) at Intel told Swiftech how to coat the aluminum. I'm pretty sure they knew what they where talking about. Then again, they are only INTEL

OPP

The quality of plating is defined by specifications. At equal specifications, the quality of a plated flute will be exactly the same as a that of a plated water-block. The cost of plating a musical instrument will be much higher simply because of the much larger surface area to plate.

Frankly, I don't know if manufacturers of musical instruments publish their plating specifications. After all, musicians might not be as interested in the manufacturing process as they are in the musical characteristics of their instrument. Conversely, our audience is composed of engineers and technically oriented people who need industry standard references (ASTM, MilSpec) to evaluate our manufacturing quality standards.

We already have a Delrin top: it's the Apogee GT. As to its performance, well do the Math: Naekuh himself has verified his numbers up and now down versus the competition, and we have verified that the GT is only ~1C off the GTX at 100Watts and 1.5GPM. So it clearly tells you were the GT is located performance wise compared to the competition; it's made of Delrin, and it's average street price is $10 to $15 less than competition.

What is most distressing to me is the fact that people in this forum do not trust our data. Yet, this data always end up being verified over time, despite the relentless efforts of the anti-swiftech crowd. I could see not trusting the new kid on the block, but we have been in business for 7 years, and published professional data for what? close to 5 years now? If our numbers were skewed, people would know it after so much time. The only thing we don't publish is competitive data, which doesn't mean that we don't conduct competitive testing in-house. We simply chose not to create controversy by publishing it. So we know were our blocks are on the performance curve, at the tenth of the degree Celsius, and let's just say that we feel very comfortable about it. I also think that the backplate we are about to release will indeed bring both the GT and the GTX a mounting repeatability that will definitely allow all users to exploit the true potential of these blocks.

Back to the GTX and the plating issue, we made a mistake several years ago with anodized blocks. But everybody learns from their mistakes. I know we have, and as a result I am completely confident with the process that we are using now. The fact that you and a few others don't feel comfortable with it is a result of bad past experiences, and I understand it. But progress is made precisely by making mistakes, learning from them, and growing from there. Those who remain stuck in the old ways do not grow: they stagnate and end up falling behind the pace of technology.

Frankly the chances of corrosion in these blocks versus say the chances of machined acrylic tops cracking are thousands to 1. Yet, you guys buy acrylic top blocks (one piece VGA blocks come to mind) like mad. Doesn't matter that theyr'e being recalled. Doesn't matter that some blocks don't come with oring grooves and users have to JB Weld the fittings.. But when Swiftech tells you that the Storm is outdated, or that we use state-of-the-art plating, you chose not to believe it. Fine, what can I say. Just remember one thing if any: WE gave water-block base bowing to the world, not a mere artifact resulting from a manufacturing process, but a conscious decision that we made to incorporate this technology in our offerings based on the knowledge developped from testing. Is bowing the way we do it now the end of the line? Not by a long shot. Right now, it indicates a certain road to follow: hydraulic performance is reaching a plateau, and work needs to be done on other aspects.

The fact that a few of you are putting pressure on us to make a Delrin top (forget brass) for this block is one thing. And maybe we will in the future.. after all if it can sell a few hundred more water-blocks, why would I be against it? But the objective reality is simple: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current process that we use to plate the GTX, period.

[situman]

Man the above is harsh, but facts are facts. What's spoken cannot be taken back. I don't see the significance of the bowing of the base. It uses a thicker o-ring for godsakes and that was after the Fuzion beat the crap out of the non-bowed GTX (if I recall correctly).

[septim]

the facts are back...

[Xilikon]

The red highlight is exactly what I remembered about his declarations when I read the big thread during my research for the best waterblock. That's why I said here and on the other that this is a problem if Gabe said it can hold well with plating and corrosion cases pop up contradicting his claims...

the weird thing is that at first he wanted to go with performance and simplicity but listened to the ppl wanting bling. Here is what he didn't get is that we can get blingy with a copper top or cheaper with a delrin top to please 2 crowd. Copper can be nickel plated or painted (top only) to suit any needs.

[ZL1Killa]

I don't know about worth every penny, it should have been included in the first place

the customer shouldn't have to pay because swiftech decided to go on the cheap

WHY IN THE SAM HELL IS EVERYTHING CHEAP AS AND BUILT LIKE THESE DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!