GTX Corrosion

[Shlomo]

Lets back up a minute here guys. Is the GTX top supposed to be coated or plated? If so what is it's purpose? I thought it was to make it so there is no bare aluminum to come in contact with the water no? If this is the case why the hell does an additive need to be used? We don't need to prevent corrosion since the coating of the top should do this. Someone please tell me I'm wrong. Cause guess what. I have run for about 1.5 years WITH NO ADDITIVE JUST DISTILLED WATER. Guess what. Nothing corroded. Is it because I am 1337? Or is it because I had no aluminum in the loop? If corrosion inhibitors NEED TO BE used with the stock GTX top then IT MIGHT AS WELL BE BARE ALUMINUM.

Which is pretty much the point i'm trying to also make. So what, he didn't use pentosin, if the plating worked correctly (or if the top wasn't made out of aluminum, but delrin/stainless steel/copper instead) then corrosion wouldn't of happened anyway. Plating or not, aluminum is always a risk, and just placing the blame on not using pentosin is just skirting the issue at hand. I'd rather use pure distilled water in my loop because it has better thermal properties as a liquid than water+anything else, and the only way i'd ever feel safe doing that is with an all copper loop.

With that in mind, the Fuzion+nozzles is a much better deal than the GTX+copper top, in performance and price. Though the GTX has it beat on the looks.

So, in conclusion, there is no reason anyone should be forced to use corrosion inhibitors in this day and age of watercooling performance, there is just no justifiable and logical reason to put aluminum in any watercooling loop.

[ElEctric_EyE]

Which is pretty much the point i'm trying to also make. So what, he didn't use pentosin, if the plating worked correctly (or if the top wasn't made out of aluminum, but delrin/stainless steel/copper instead) then corrosion wouldn't of happened anyway. Plating or not, aluminum is always a risk, and just placing the blame on not using pentosin is just skirting the issue at hand. I'd rather use pure distilled water in my loop because it has better thermal properties as a liquid than water+anything else, and the only way i'd ever feel safe doing that is with an all copper loop.

With that in mind, the Fuzion+nozzles is a much better deal than the GTX+copper top, in performance and price. Though the GTX has it beat on the looks.

So, in conclusion, there is no reason anyone should be forced to use corrosion inhibitors in this day and age of watercooling performance, there is just no justifiable and logical reason to put aluminum in any watercooling loop.

I see your point of view and, personally, I agree. No additives to distilled water will do it any good, because the pH will change from the almighty neutral 7 and BAD BAD things will happen. As far as algae, this is why I (a n00b to WC) was so concerned about flushing. I'm doing a first flush after 3months in Jan08, but no prob if I have to do it once a month to beat bacteria. Just FYI, I'm using Masterkleer Hose, and after close to 3 weeks I don't see any clouding. Could this be because I sterilized my loop with 50/50 vinegar/water in the beginning? It was rec'd by Maxxxracer in the stickies...

[[XC] riptide]

Folks got a point here. If there is corrosion here, it means invariably that the ALU has suffered a breach to the H20. Nothing more nothing less. So the plating procedure is not enough. Anodize?

[Xilikon]

Folks, just vote with your wallet... Gabe will get the message if enough do this.

I bought a Fuzion so there is one less customer for their GTX.

[CyberDruid]

Folks got a point here. If there is corrosion here, it means invariably that the ALU has suffered a breach to the H20. Nothing more nothing less. So the plating procedure is not enough. Anodize?

ZOMG didn't you read how many times Waterlogged has had to say that plating and anodizing are not the same!!!

Dammit Man!



This thread is Legendary.

Face it the Copper Top is incredibly good looking. Nothing wrong with the GTX design..just needs the copper top and it's a work of art.

[loften]

electrolysis.. ask a plumber about tying copper, water and a alloy together.. it is a no no.

[loften]

as for my water in my computer it is distilled with about 1/2 a cap full of redline water wetter. i heat houses with tap water for a living. been doing it for about 10 years..boilers,pumps,manifolds,copper,pex and electronics.. it is fun..

[septim]

mil spec plating = just takes a while longer to corrode...

even so proper precaution against corrosion should not be in fine print, it should be in the first sentence and in BOLD to emphasize...

[migueld]

Can somebody please just use battery acid in their loop and take some pics and post them. Then start complaining how bad a manufacturers product is, I really need a good laugh. Tap water only gets a chuckle out of me. TIA

++

[CyberDruid]

I think a urine loop would be a good test. My piss will eat through stainless steel o..O

Why take the piss out of the GTX when you can put the piss into the GTX

[Borgod]

This thread is what you get when you go on the cheap and try to maximise profit. Enough reason for me to never buy a Swiftech block.

Still waiting to see where chainbolt said he used tap water. Anyone? Gabe?

[gabe]

I see your point of view and, personally, I agree. No additives to distilled water will do it any good, because the pH will change from the almighty neutral 7 and BAD BAD things will happen.

My favorite post in this thread was yours earlier: why not using battery acid as coolant?

One claim of 1.5 year of continuous use of additive-less distilled water does not specify how often the loop was drained in that period of time. I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt that any active member of XS has ever left their system un-tinkered with for more than a few months (weeks? days?) at a time. I can already imagine new users reading this and thinking that it's Ok to fill-up their system with pure distilled water, to come back 1 year later and find an entire ecosystem in their loop.

In the the real world, I wouldn't recommend running pure distilled water for CONTINUOUS EXTENDED use in any loop, mixed metals or not. It WILL develop algea, that same algea will end up clogging the small features in your w/b, jets, micro-channels, etc etc...

Additives are a must for any prolongued use. Period.

[Shlomo]

This thread is what you get when you go on the cheap and try to maximise profit. Enough reason for me to never buy a Swiftech block.

Still waiting to see where chainbolt said he used tap water. Anyone? Gabe?

Thats a bit extreme, swiftech creates great products, the aluminum top was just a little ill-advised. I'll use their products anyday, just not the GTX as it is now with an aluminum top.

Just because a company tried to maximize profits doesn't mean you should shun them. It's the goal for every company, hopefully Gabe got the picture and sees what needs to be done for his next design, but a company trying to maximize profits is no reason for you to boycott them....

Gabe, I don't think people would truly use 100% distilled water and no PT nuke, when I say that I use pure distilled water and only that, it doesn't mean I don't put a few drops of PT nuke into the loop. A few drops of that is much different than 3oz of Pentosin.. mostly I see people using Pentosin, and HydrX for the looks, not the anti-algae/corrosion inhibitors they possess. Then again, I think algae can grow in a 10% concentration of pentosin, I never really tested it.

[situman]

Delrin+Copper=Fuzion for me. More than satisfied with it. No corrosion worries and it won't warp my board. Now if the EK block performs even better...

Its great to try new techniques but sometimes, it just doesn't make sense.

[nikhsub1]

One claim of 1.5 year of continuous use of additive-less distilled water does not specify how often the loop was drained in that period of time. I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt that any active member of XS has ever left their system un-tinkered with for more than a few months (weeks? days?) at a time. I can already imagine new users reading this and thinking that it's Ok to fill-up their system with pure distilled water, to come back 1 year later and find an entire ecosystem in their loop.

In the the real world, I wouldn't recommend running pure distilled water for CONTINUOUS EXTENDED use in any loop, mixed metals or not. It WILL develop algea, that same algea will end up clogging the small features in your w/b, jets, micro-channels, etc etc...

Additives are a must for any prolongued use. Period.

I don't like being called a liar Gabe And yes, about 1.5 years with NO TINKERING and NO WATER CHANGE and NO ADDITIVES. Did ya'll know that silver is a biocide? Does anyone know that I have a G5? Do we all know that it is made of silver? Enough said.

[Shlomo]

Why is there corrosion inside the threads? Shouldnt barbs be screwed into those?

Because water can get inside the threads, but not through the o-ring which is on the other side... if threads were waterproof we wouldn't need to put o-rings on the outside to keep water from leaking out.

:offtopic: Your quote in your signature Niksub1 is wrong, it goes "Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Hogfather, by Terry Pratchett

Terry Pratchett is one of my favorite authors hehe :offtopic:

[Jedda]

Shifting ground I see.
No longer, the mil hardware handles all.
Now its, of course everyone uses belt and braces or should, and get what they get if they don't.

Marketing is a pain. There's a couple of guys posting on fora I frequent that seem like they could be nice guys to talk to. But the spin their company marketing position engenders is a barrier. Pity, that.

[Borgod]

Just because a company tried to maximize profits doesn't mean you should shun them. It's the goal for every company, hopefully Gabe got the picture and sees what needs to be done for his next design, but a company trying to maximize profits is no reason for you to boycott them....

To side-step the issue of the FAULT in their product, shift blame onto the user with invented facts, attempt to dazzle us with the 'thousands sold' statistics and suggest some of us are liars or dummies is enough for me to not want give a cent to said company.

[step]

The user in this post admitted using tap/demineralized water (filtered?)

Which one is it, there is a big difference between the two.

[Petra]

Good points,

Time will tell when Petra gets his lab report back.

Gimme a little time here... It turns out that I'm going to have to do some shopping around, as the cost of such services seems to vary quite a lot depending on where I look. So far, I've had estimates ranging from about $1500 to $3000 ...and that's an awful lot just to prove a point. I shall keep looking, though. I may be receiving a second compromised aluminum GTX top from a different customer somewhat soon, which should help with analysis.

Now, I have voiced concerns to Gabe and others since the introduction of the Apogee GTX--concerns that were founded upon some phone conversations that I had a while back with an OEM that I work with who had some bad experiences experimenting with aluminum while developing cold plates for their multi-kilowatt LED arrays. I have also stated numerous times that most people shouldn't experience corrosion issues with the Apogee GTX/Stealth line, provided that they use some sort of corrosion inhibitor. However, as pointed out by Scott and others, therein lies the problem. The Apogee GTX is marketed as being a performance product intended for the enthusiast crowd, but a good portion of the performance-seeking users are running straight distilled with, perhaps, some form of biocide (be it silver, iodine, copper sulphate, etc.), as that is all that should ever be needed. Putting total faith into almost any plating process (with regard to corrosion prevention and aluminum) is somewhat akin to me claiming that there are no quality control issues with products coming out of China--be they large or small in scope, you will run into problems at some point. Given the numerous materials options which were available while designing the Apogee GTX that wouldn't have posed any possibility of causing a problem, we shouldn't be having this conversation right now... but here we are.

Does it matter that there have been, perhaps, only four cases of possible corrosion involving the Apogee GTX (that I know of, have been posted on XS, etc.)? No. Does it matter that I can personally verify only one (maybe two, depending) of these cases out of "thousands" of Apogee GTX blocks sold by Swiftech? No. The point is that it can happen... but it shouldn't have been allowed to--the only reason that the possibility of corrosion exists in this product is due to choices that were made by Swiftech.

[Waterlogged]

ZOMG didn't you read how many times Waterlogged has had to say that plating and anodizing are not the same!!!

Dammit Man!



This thread is Legendary.

Face it the Copper Top is incredibly good looking. Nothing wrong with the GTX design..just needs the copper top and it's a work of art.

Thanks CD

btw, that comment I made about that wasn't aimed solely at you in case you were wondering.


As to the ppl wondering why tap water would make such a difference, I think I have your answer.

Tap water has minerals in it and while they are very tiny, they become abrasive particles when the water flows as fast as it does in our loops. Once it erodes the plating away, the plating itself becomes part of the abrasive material whizzing through the loop, then the aluminum gets added and so on and so forth until the mix gets so bad that you get what happened here. If you don't believe water with minerals can be abrasive, I ask you to look at the Grand Canyon.

[Jedda]

Good points,

Time will tell when Petra gets his lab report back.

andyc

Roger that!
Spin free zone.

[Sparky]

[septim]

i'll grab some of that e-popcorn...

[Xilikon]

Also, keep in mind that even if Swiftech claimed to never heard of that many corroded GTX, it's very possible that owners who got corrosion on their GTX/Stealth just silently toss it in the garbage can not knowing there is a warranty and buy a different one. That might add up if we can find out how much of those guys did it.