Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 73

Thread: More Petra'sTech DDC Pump Testing (curves, power, new pumps/tops, etc.)

  1. #1
    I am Xtreme-ly Unemployed
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Palmdale, CA USA
    Posts
    1,932

    More Petra'sTech DDC Pump Testing (curves, power, new pumps/tops, etc.)

    Hey everyone... I'm back with another round of DDC testing for your viewing enjoyment. However, this time, rather than doing somewhat crude comparative testing, I've gathered some more equipment and decided to go for some spiffy pressure vs. flow curves with power consumption. This will, hopefully, provide a clearer picture of overall pump performance for everyone.

    Now, before I get started, let me just say that I've already run my data past my Laing contact and they indicated that my data is good (I say this now because I'm sure that a few of you won't be too happy with the data). Additionally, I'll have to wait 'till early next week to post photos of pumps and stuff because I have to take off early today.

    So, here we go!


    The Contenders:

    18W DDC-2TPMP - This is the standard, red impellered DDC-2 that's available in the US. It'll be tested stock, with my DDCT-01 top, my new DDCT-01s top, and as Frankenpump (see below).

    18W DDC-3.2VCTP - This is one of the new 18W, blue impellered pumps that's readily available in Europe but hasn't really hit the US market yet. Incase you're wondering about the model number, this pump started life as a volume compensating DDC, but it has been modified by Laing to remove the volume compensator. Despite utilizing a v3.3 motor control board, the official name for the pump is the DDC-3.2 (more on this later). The blue impeller does have a smaller inlet (~9mm vs. the red impeller's 12mm inlet) and it is also slightly smaller in diameter (~36mm vs. ~36.75mm). Some other changes include the lengthening of the pump's startup procedure, a newly redesigned motor, RoHS compatibility, and the elimination of the DDC-2's nasty 4A overshoot at startup (which I happen to think may be, at least in part, responsible for the very early death suffered by several DDC-2's...but I still have some research and a lot of testing to do to see if this is the case). This pump will be tested stock and with my new DDCT-01s top.

    The Frankenpump - Frankenpump is basically a DDC-2TPMP with a DDCT-01s top and a blue impeller, borrowed from the DDC-3.2VCTP. Please don't jump to try this at home as Frankenpump wasn't a very happy monster

    The DDCT-01s Top - This top is a very small revision to my original DDCT-01 design, which was mainly done to provide compatibility with the blue impellered DDC pumps. I was also able to eek a tiny bit of extra performance outta the old design in this revision. Make no mistake, this is not the DDCT-02 (that's something that's still in development). The DDCT-01s should be available by sometime next week as they're at the shop being made right now. However, if you're interested in making your current DDCT-01 top compatible with the blue impellered pumps, then all you have to do is remove the inlet ring with a dremel (I'd advise using a flat-tipped tungsten-carbide bit and cleaning any burrs up with an X-Acto knife).


    Testing Procedures:

    Lacking an appropriate flow meter, I filled a container of known volume (verified very slowly with a graduated cylinder meeting ASTM Class B, E1272 spec.) from 0.5 Gal. to 4.5 Gal. and carefully measured the filling time at various head pressures (each data point collected the mean average of 3 trials, head pressure/flow was controlled with a gate valve just after the pump's outlet, and head pressure was monitored with one of my new pressure gauges [4" gauge face, glycerine filled to eliminate/reduce needle jitter, + or - 1% full scale accuracy, 0.2psig markings (pretty easily approximated to 0.1psig)]). All tests were carried out at 12.00V (measured at the pump's power connector, so it doesn't take into account the minimal resistance presented by the pump's 22ga. power wires) utilizing an HP 6264B variable DC power supply. Oh, yeah, and the charts may look a little cluttered but they're not nearly as bad as the chart with all of the data that I collected (and am still collecting) on it.


    The Test Results:


    Raw Max. Data:

    - 18W DDC-2TPMP (stock) -
    Max. Head Pressure: 8.7psig (~20' -- ~6.1m)
    Max. Discharge (flow): 2.24 GPM

    - 18W DDC-3.2VCTP (stock) -
    Max. Head Pressure: 6psig (~13.84' -- ~4.22m)
    Max. Discharge (flow): 2.2 GPM

    - 18W DDC-2TPMP w/DDCT-01 top -
    Max. Head Pressure: 8psig (~18.45' -- ~5.62m)
    Max. Discharge (flow): 3.84 GPM

    - 18W DDC-2TPMP w/DDCT-01s top -
    Max. Head Pressure: 8.2psig (~18.91' -- ~5.76m)
    Max. Discharge (flow): 4.11 GPM

    - 18W DDC-3.2VCTP w/DDCT-01s top -
    Max. Head Pressure: 5.6psig (~12.92' -- ~3.94m)
    Max. Discharge (flow): 4.19 GPM

    - 18W Frankenpump -
    Max. Head Pressure: 8.4psig (~19.37' -- ~5.9m)
    Max. Discharge (flow): 3.87 GPM


    The Curves w/Power Consumption:

    First up, a comparison of the DDCT-01 and DDCT-01s tops (both on the same DDC-2TPMP).


    Slightly lower power consumption, slightly higher max. head, and slightly higher max. flow... yup, that's the DDCT-01s in a nutshell.


    Moving on, here's a comparison of the DDC-2TPMP and the DDC-3.2VCTP in their stock form and with the DDCT-01s top. This one is a little messy but it's pretty clear that the newer DDC isn't doing so hot, with its substantially lower max. head pressure. Interesting to note the power consumption of the new pump, though--it starts a lot lower and ends higher than that of the DDC-2TPMP. Granted, with very low pressure drop waterblocks on the market now (like the D-Tek FuZion), the DDC-3.2 still stands as a good little pump for our purposes.



    Since that's a rather confusing chart, here it is broken into two charts (one for the DDC-2 and one for the DDC-3.2):





    ...and now to Frankenpump.


    Now, the reason I decided to do the Frankenpump test is because I wanted to drive home the point that I had made previously: the majority of the changes and the reason for the performance difference both lie in the new pump's motor, not the impeller. Drop the blue impeller into a DDC-2TPMP and you get higher head pressure and marginally better flow...and a lot of angry noises & vibrations. Interestingly, power consumption also went up considerably.


    A lot of you are probably somewhat disappointed with the performance of the new 18W DDC-3.2 and, honestly, so am I. However, we likely won't be seeing them show up in the US through retail channels for about another 6 months or so. In the meantime, however, Laing is scrambling to make a version of the new DDC with performance equivalent to that of the DDC-2. Only time will tell whether they manage to get a production commitment, but, if it does go into production, it'll likely surface as the DDC-3.3.

    I have more information, commentary, and photos to add to this but it'll have to wait until next week as I'm going to be out of town this weekend... and, speaking of which, I'm already an hour behind schedule. (go figure )

    -Later


    Update!

    Okay, I mentioned in another thread that I was going to post some data for the Iwaki RD-30 at 18.1V and, well, here it is!

    Keep in mind that this is just a graph of the raw RD-30 data vs. the refined data for the DDC-2 w/top. The reason that I'm presenting the RD-30 data this way is due to the irregular shape of the curve and how difficult it would have been to create an accurate fitted curve for the data set (the data for the DDC's all came out to be pretty parabolic, so an accurate fitted curve was a snap). Additional tests only worked to confirm the linearity of the performance curve at higher head pressures, so this is how I'm presenting it to you. Also, power consumption in this chart is presented in Watts, instead of Amps, because the pumps were running at different voltages.




    As you can see, even at 18.1V, it's substantially more powerful than the DDC-2... but its power consumption is also quite a bit higher than the DDC-2's. At 18.1V, the RD-30's head pressure topped out at 9.1 PSIG (~21 feet -- 6.4m) and the flow was pretty impressive. Honestly, though, comparing that to Iwaki's performance curve for the RD-20 at 24V (found HERE), the RD-20 at 24V may be a better choice in pump than an undervolted RD-30 (especially if you're running the pump above 6 psig). Granted, I don't have any power consumption information for the RD-20 but, if it proves to use less power than the undervolted RD-30... really, it depends on what you want to do with the pump, though.

    UPDATE (again): After getting the RD-30 onto my testbed, I've noticed a couple oddities that I'll have to investigate further... the results of which may cause me to redo the above performance curve.
    Last edited by Petra; 04-17-2010 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Updated image URLs
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive...

  2. #2
    Xtreme Cruncher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    683
    Alex

    Thanks for the comparison breakdowns.

  3. #3
    Egyptian OverClocker
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cairo, Egypt
    Posts
    3,356
    as expected very nice work

    gonna be waiting for the pictures
    Soon to be :
    ASUS P8P67 Deluxe, Intel SB i7-2600k, G.Skill Rj-X F3-12800CL6D-4GBXH, MSI HD6950 2GB, Corsair 750AX, Intel 80GB G2 SSD, DELL U2410

    Used to be: SaFrOuT

  4. #4
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4,682
    Thank you for your work Petra.
    fermiNow Dave will see FERMI where ever I go
    Quote Originally Posted by jbartlett323 View Post
    So please return to the "Darkside of the Moon" and check your "Pulse" while you wait for the "Animals" that will be "Obscured By Clouds". And watch me wave as I say "Wish You Were Here" in "A Momentary Lapse of Reason"

  5. #5
    Hamster Powered
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Virginia, USA [Krunching since 2001]
    Posts
    7,623
    Great work Alex, we look forward to the pictures.
    XSWCG Disclaimer:
    We are not responsible for the large sums of money that you WILL want to spend to upgrade and add additional equipment. This is an addiction and the forum takes no responsibility morally or financially for the equipment and therapy cost. Thank you and have a great day.

    Sigmund Freud said... "Failure to CRUNCH is a sign of Sexual Inadequacies".

  6. #6
    Xtreme Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cologne, Germany
    Posts
    591
    Great work, much appreciated. Nice they apparently fixed the startup issue, but at what cost. I don't understand how that blue impeller made it past prototype.

  7. #7
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    324
    Wow, that's a messy chart lol. Takes a little time to read the data. Thanks for your hard work.

  8. #8
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    102
    Great work!
    ~~~Intel C2D 6600 (L29B) @ 3.2 - Asus P5W64 WS Pro - 2gig Team 667mhz (3-3-3-8) - eVGA 7900GT (580mhz x 800mhz) - X-Fi Fatal1ty - 150gig Raptor - 200gb WD hd - OCZ 700w GameXstream - Black Stacker 830 - Dell 24" 2407 A03 || X-fi > CI Audio VHP-1 > Grado HF-1 #90

    Petra's DDCT-01s on DDC-2 > MCR-220 w/ 2 coolinks > hardmounted Apogee GTX with backplate > BIP 1x120mm rad w/ scythe fan > MCW 60 + ramsinks > EK 150 multioption res containing Distilled water + pt nuke + cool-cases-usa uv orange dye || all connected with Tygon 7/16ID 11/16OD

    PROJECT LOG

  9. #9
    Xtreme Cruncher
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Lancaster, PA
    Posts
    3,814
    That is definately good to know, Alex. I might have to order another DDC-2 or two with the new top when I get the money.

    Just to stock up.
    A wolf in wolves clothing.

  10. #10
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    335
    Petra, is it possible use the same color for the both pump and its power curve. I think that might make it easier to review.

    I’m most interested in the “DDC Comparison” chart (chart 2.) I notice that the cross over point between a DDC-2TPMP stock and the DDC-2TPMP w/DDCT-01s is around 0.8 GPM at a head loss of about 6.9 psi. So we still have the case where a highly restrictive loop might do better with a stock top, but I’d guess that the average person should see some gain in flow with the Petra top.

    However, the power curves show that more power is being consumed with the Petra top. Based on the recent tests by nikhsub1, you have to wonder now how the extra power consumption affects the CPU temp.

    Lots of questions...not enough answers.

    Nice work! :thumbsup:

  11. #11
    I am Xtreme-ly Unemployed
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Palmdale, CA USA
    Posts
    1,932
    Quote Originally Posted by Graystar View Post
    So we still have the case where a highly restrictive loop might do better with a stock top, but I’d guess that the average person should see some gain in flow with the Petra top.
    Erm, considering that an MP-05 SP LE (higher pressure drop than the G4), MP-1 GPU (highest pressure drop amongst commonly available GPU blocks), and BIP can't even take a DDC-2 w/top below 1GPM... I'd think that hardly anyone would run into a situation where the stock DDC-2 would win out (as far as flowrate is concerned).

    Maybe if you were on 1/4" ID tubing and had a jillion blocks in your loop that were similar to the NexXxos XP in design...
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive...

  12. #12
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    335
    Yup, I agree. You'd need a lot of restrictive blocks to reach that point. That‘s why I noted that the average person would see a gain in flow. :thumbsup:

  13. #13
    Hamster Powered
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Virginia, USA [Krunching since 2001]
    Posts
    7,623
    Quote Originally Posted by Petra View Post
    Erm, considering that an MP-05 SP LE (higher pressure drop than the G4), MP-1 GPU (highest pressure drop amongst commonly available GPU blocks), and BIP can't even take a DDC-2 w/top below 1GPM... I'd think that hardly anyone would run into a situation where the stock DDC-2 would win out (as far as flowrate is concerned).

    Maybe if you were on 1/4" ID tubing and had a jillion blocks in your loop that were similar to the NexXxos XP in design...
    I would not have thought that, but mine does outperform my G4 by 1-2c.
    XSWCG Disclaimer:
    We are not responsible for the large sums of money that you WILL want to spend to upgrade and add additional equipment. This is an addiction and the forum takes no responsibility morally or financially for the equipment and therapy cost. Thank you and have a great day.

    Sigmund Freud said... "Failure to CRUNCH is a sign of Sexual Inadequacies".

  14. #14
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    335
    I think it’s getting near impossible to gauge waterblock performance nowadays. You’ve got the Apogee GTX giving 4 C variances based on what O-ring is installed, dependency on the type of processor...there are just a lot of variables now and flow is just one of them. I don’t know if you can really draw anything from having better performance with less flow. I don’t think anyone can say with certainty that what worked for you will work for others.

    And you know what that means...more testing!

  15. #15
    Xtreme Cruncher
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Saskatoon (Canada)
    Posts
    1,568
    Quote Originally Posted by Graystar View Post
    I think it’s getting near impossible to gauge waterblock performance nowadays. You’ve got the Apogee GTX giving 4 C variances based on what O-ring is installed, dependency on the type of processor...there are just a lot of variables now and flow is just one of them. I don’t know if you can really draw anything from having better performance with less flow. I don’t think anyone can say with certainty that what worked for you will work for others.

    And you know what that means...more testing!
    That is the most sense you have made in a long time...

    Good work Petra, can't wait to see your's and nikhsub1's results...

    Yin|Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD5-B3|Swiftech XT -> GTX240 -> DDC+ w/ Petra's|2600K @ 5.0GHz @1.368V |4 x 4 GB G.Skill Eco DDR3-1600-8-8-8-24|Asus DirectCUII GTX670|120 GB Crucial M4|2 x 2 TB Seagate LP(Raid-0)|Plextor 755-SA|Auzentech Prelude 7.1|Seasonic M12-700|Lian-Li PC-6077B (Heavily Modded)

    Squire|Shuttle SD36G5M| R.I.P.

  16. #16
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Arcadia, CA
    Posts
    166
    Alex,
    Great work as always!
    Nowi
    Intel Xeon X5650
    ASUS Sabertooth X58
    3 x 2 Gb G.Skill PC3-12800
    MSI GTX 780Ti Gaming 3 Gb
    Seasonic X850


    Corsair 750D
    Heatkiller 3.0/D5 & EK Top/Alphacool UT60 240

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    93
    Yay! Thanks Petra. Keep up the good work. I am waiting for pics of the test setup If the 01s is outperforming the 01 by that much, I can't wait for more 02 info
    kuroikenshi: "I cannot believe that their flagship product will be New Zealand (they should make an all blacks version of it)"
    SexyMF: "I am stoked that I can get a decent GPU branded with my country "
    MrMojoZ: "Now all you need is electricty. "

  18. #18
    I am Xtreme-ly Unemployed
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Palmdale, CA USA
    Posts
    1,932
    Quote Originally Posted by Graystar View Post
    Petra, is it possible use the same color for the both pump and its power curve. I think that might make it easier to review.
    Now that you mention it, that's not a bad idea... I'll play around with the colors when I get back into the office on Monday.
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive...

  19. #19
    Xtreme Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Turkey/İzmir
    Posts
    600
    Thanks for the comparison
    Intel Core i7 930@ 4.0Ghz | Gigabyte EX58-UD4P | 3x2Gb OCZ 1600mhz | Palit GTX280 | 1TB Seagate | Samsung P2350 23'' | Silverstone Decathlon DA750W | Lian-Li PC777B | Logitech Z-5500 | Creative X-Fi| Iphone 4

    Hardwarena Overclock Team

  20. #20
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Lappland/Sweden
    Posts
    142
    Thx for this test.
    LD PC-V8 | i7 3930K |Asus Rampage IV Extreme| G.Skill Ripjaws Z | Sapphire 7970 | Acer GD245HQ |OCZ Vertex 2 E 120GB | Intel 510 120GB | Cooling XSPX RX480, XSPC RX360, Swiftech MCP35X-XSPC res top, EK Supreme HF Copper,T-balancer mCubed bigNG |

  21. #21
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Germany/Europe
    Posts
    1,141
    That's definitely some interesting info, thanks alot!
    Intel i7 8700k | AsRock Z370 Gaming K6 | G.Skill TridentZ PC4-3200 | Gainward GTX 1080 Phoenix GLH | Seasonic Prime Titanium 650W

  22. #22
    Hamster Powered
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Virginia, USA [Krunching since 2001]
    Posts
    7,623
    Sorry Alex.

    @Radical_53,

    Haven't heard from you in a while, hope all is well.
    XSWCG Disclaimer:
    We are not responsible for the large sums of money that you WILL want to spend to upgrade and add additional equipment. This is an addiction and the forum takes no responsibility morally or financially for the equipment and therapy cost. Thank you and have a great day.

    Sigmund Freud said... "Failure to CRUNCH is a sign of Sexual Inadequacies".

  23. #23
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,171
    Very good info. I am sure this takes a lot of time to complete, but I would love to see how the original DDC stock and with top compares, especially given that the DDC-3.2 has such lower numbers. I wonder if the DDC would actually be on par or better than the 3.2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graystar View Post
    Yup, I agree. You'd need a lot of restrictive blocks to reach that point. That‘s why I noted that the average person would see a gain in flow. :thumbsup:
    Graystar: So do you still hold the opinion that "those aftermarket tops are a waste of money"?
    Last edited by voigts; 03-18-2007 at 03:46 PM.

  24. #24
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    335
    Quote Originally Posted by voigts View Post
    Graystar: So do you still hold the opinion that "those aftermarket tops are a waste of money"?
    Absolutely

  25. #25
    Xtreme Cruncher
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Saskatoon (Canada)
    Posts
    1,568
    Waste of money if your using 3/8" tubing maybe...

    Yin|Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD5-B3|Swiftech XT -> GTX240 -> DDC+ w/ Petra's|2600K @ 5.0GHz @1.368V |4 x 4 GB G.Skill Eco DDR3-1600-8-8-8-24|Asus DirectCUII GTX670|120 GB Crucial M4|2 x 2 TB Seagate LP(Raid-0)|Plextor 755-SA|Auzentech Prelude 7.1|Seasonic M12-700|Lian-Li PC-6077B (Heavily Modded)

    Squire|Shuttle SD36G5M| R.I.P.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •