WOW!!!! CRYO-TEK/Chilly1/Polycold Modded Autocascade Rev.3!

[Xeon th MG Pony]

And as I said so fare I have much in common with Cryo, so fiew to seriously talk to about any thing technicle here, all my friends just roll their eyes and nod, So both him and I are tech talk deprived! lol diferant fields but hey it's some thing in common, and I've had weirder but increadibly awsom stuff happen! Why not be thankfull that such an expert happend to fall in this forum! Out of all the forums he stumbled accross this one and was happy to see so much about the technology he holds so dear and decided to grace the community with his skill, much like you have (I'm guessing about that part).

I'm sure he'll post more info as he has time, untill he gives a reason to be suspicius enjoy the idea. I too am waiting for a schematic, I'm a patient pony, I'll wait.

Why the hostility? He is a peer and you aut to show him some professional curtisy. (Or at the very least have your info streight)

[jinu117]

Well any body with decency (which I think cryo does right now) would not teach people on things he doesn't know exactly what will happen.
I mean, he certainly didn't have to play with meager 150w heatload, he probably didn't use much of 1/4 hp or 1/3hp compressor we use often. Basics are same but actual variation is still unfounded for this small load with OUR configuration (well with good guesses from his end I would think).
I mean, any HVAC guys can build single stage really... but building it well for our use... good luck finding one that even dealt with our situation... (well there are few here I guess lol)
Besides, only thing that is not mentioned at this point really seems to be...
#1 exact charge which will be different for each system anyway.
#2 exact metering amount which again will be different for each system again anyway.
It's for us to start finding out really.
(hopefully cryo guiding us as we come with questions, I know I got my first build nearly perfectly done thanks to you wrdzal and few others :P)

[eshbach]

So, I'm a little confused.

Is the polycold an autocascade or a Joule-Thomson machine?

[cryo-tek]

I have been asking for pictures, along with pythogoras and others, explanations were alson asked for. no answeres where given,

you don't follow someone blindly??? Do ya?

"at least","throw me a bone" of info

Now you have done it wrdzal, It's 12:54pm, I can’t sleep thinking that I didn’t get you the information you needed to have an understanding of the autocascade. Here’s a recap for you.

Diagrams:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...t=46096&page=4
Post # 92
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...t=97265&page=6
Post # 127
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...t=97265&page=7
Post #161

Pictures:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...86#post1409986
Post # 1 and 7

Gas mix info:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...86#post1409986
Post # 12

High boiler info:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...97#post1416697
Post # 151

Low boiler info:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...28#post1416628
Post # 149

Captubes:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...t=97054&page=3
Post #52

My training: You’ll have to think about this one.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=97265
Post #171
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=97274
Post #1

[VictorWang]

ohhhhhh god......

[Unknown_road]

Maybe this will help you understand things a bit better

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...5&RS=6,631,625

I read it, doesn't explain what argon does, just that it is needed. But I'm now convincid it doesn't do anything under load temperature wise. I think it just helps the gasses to condens and seperate. No helping with load temps

Seems to me he knows what he's doing and has the knowledge to go along with it. Do you have a -150° unit?

lol, you don't have a clue what my point is do you? and still diss about it

[Crownie]

Impressive.

[GuuZ]

@ cryo-tek:

I think a lot of us are wondering what oil is inside the polycold compressor. Some people here who considered using R14 got stuck with oil problems.

Please let us know..

[Nyx]

Think u are not following his threads go flip over what he posted for wdrzal its somewhere in there.

[GuuZ]

to be honest with you Nyx, I am following this topic very close. But all I saw is that R123 is helping with the oil management. But that is'n providing very much info. Or I should simply have missed it, to be honest with you I am stupid enough for that .

Anyway, if R14 is able to handle the oil because of R123 being there too, how could this information been used in the "classic" cascade system like cold_ice's?

[Unknown_road]

I wonder about the oil too. Since r14 doesn't seem to work in a normal cascade with POE oil no matter what oil seperator you use. Especially because the air liquide site reports that R14 and hydrocarbon based oils aren't compatible. So Guuz's question is a good one. What oil is inside? If it is POE then we can conclude that apparently the oil completly dissolves into the other refrigerants and therefor doesn't react with the r14. We can use this knowledge to build normal cascades with r14.

If the polycold uses special oil this is also usefull because we can search for this oil.

[pythagoras]

I think its Zerol 150 or a derivative.

Regards

John.

[Nyx]

pythagoras you are right.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ighlight=zerol
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ighlight=zerol

As i said he did mention about the oil to be used.

[cryo-tek]

Good morning,

Pythsgoraa is correct, the Polycold units use Zerol 150 in most of there cascades. Telemark Cryogenics uses POE theres.

The job of an oil separate or a phase separator is to separate the liquids from the gas.
The two have the same function. Oil in a hot discharge line is hard to trap. If the discharge line has been cooled the oil is easier to trap. It gets easer if there is a high boiler refrigerant that will mix with the oil.(R-11,113,114,123)

The oil management in an autocascade is easer than in a mulit compressor cascade. In the autocascade, the oil must pass through the phase separators before it reaches the low temp stages. The oil is separated out of the discharge gas along with the condensed refrigerant. The bulk of the oil is removed from the gas stream along with the highest boiling refrigerants in the first separator. (The high boilers need to be miscible with the oil used) The oil mist that passes through the separator is cooled in the cascade condenser along with the refrigerants. The condensed refrigerants and oil are than separated from the gas in the second separator.

I love this but I have to do some real work.

I’m still new at this thread thing, is this the right place to ask a question or do I need to start a new thread? If this is the wrong place please tell me and I will move it

My problem: A new unit that was built has lower suction pressures that the standard units. It also performs better. A new person charged the unit. The rest should be the same but it’s not. What could affect suction pressure?
Captubes
Compressor pumping speed
?
?

[Jack]

Since the question isn't related to the current thread, it will be a good idea to start a new thread.

And at what location did you measure the suction pressure?

[404Power]

Don't beat me if I'm wrong () .... but:
Isn't R600 / R600a ~ the same as R-11,113,114,123?
It's rly cheap and easy to get (@ Austria, where I live, you can buy nearly everywhere, where you can also buy some other gasses! ^^ )

So ... I think nice gasses for an autocascade would be:

R134a / R600a / R23 / R14 / R740

What do you think about this?

regards
404Power

[GuuZ]

R600a is isobutane and has a BP of - 11,7 C

not rele usefull I think

[Nyx]

Can u think of a blend for those withouht much cash to spare . R14 and argon is way out of scope. What some of us can get is R22 / R290 / Co2 /R600 / R134A and with some luck ethlyene. And those R 4 or R 5 series refrigerants which i think someone say that it is not suitable due to seperation issues. So autoc is really high up the ladder for me to reach for now. But i do enjoy the learning procedure . Unless cyrotek comes up with a cheap blend with the above refrigerant which could let us see some -100C action

[wdrzal]

Zerol Refrigeration Oil is a high-quality, synthetic alkylbenzene refrigeration oil.

it comes in sus 150,200,300 nothing special ,works great in burn outs as a solvent. I never thought is was any thing special,looks like milk.

but zerol has a new product zerol ice,its a additive to improve lubercation.

I have a power point presentation. you may need a power point veiwer to see it.

can't upload it.

[SoF]

I wouldn't even know what to ask about such a.....a.........
....a beaaaaaaaaaaast ^^ I'm speechless really

[pythagoras]

R600a is isobutane and has a BP of - 11,7 C

not rele usefull I think

Butane is a very common component of ARC mixtures.

Regards

John.

[saber63]

man its kinda nice to see some fresh blood that knows alot! most of the time its newbs like me, who dont know jack about this stuff, but its seems like you do know your stuff. i mean even from what little proff weve seen. and if all the other stuff you said is true..... THEN DAMN. im really looking forward to the stuff you cook up for are pc's

and hows that orginal regassed system running right now? saw the -150 screeny, but how bout with loads etc... and can we see some ON chip stuff whith that system???? i want to see how well they OC with it *drools*

cant wait to see what is to come

saber63

[Unknown_road]

Good morning,

Pythsgoraa is correct, the Polycold units use Zerol 150 in most of there cascades. Telemark Cryogenics uses POE theres.

The job of an oil separate or a phase separator is to separate the liquids from the gas.
The two have the same function. Oil in a hot discharge line is hard to trap. If the discharge line has been cooled the oil is easier to trap. It gets easer if there is a high boiler refrigerant that will mix with the oil.(R-11,113,114,123)

The oil management in an autocascade is easer than in a mulit compressor cascade. In the autocascade, the oil must pass through the phase separators before it reaches the low temp stages. The oil is separated out of the discharge gas along with the condensed refrigerant. The bulk of the oil is removed from the gas stream along with the highest boiling refrigerants in the first separator. (The high boilers need to be miscible with the oil used) The oil mist that passes through the separator is cooled in the cascade condenser along with the refrigerants. The condensed refrigerants and oil are than separated from the gas in the second separator.

I love this but I have to do some real work.

I’m still new at this thread thing, is this the right place to ask a question or do I need to start a new thread? If this is the wrong place please tell me and I will move it

My problem: A new unit that was built has lower suction pressures that the standard units. It also performs better. A new person charged the unit. The rest should be the same but it’s not. What could affect suction pressure?
Captubes
Compressor pumping speed
?
?

I missed the post were you said what oil is in the system. sorry. hm alkylbenzene is hydrocarbon based ,weird.

Hydrocarbon based lubricant: Non recommended, significant loss of mass by extraction or chemical reaction.

compressor pumping speed only depends on the frequency of the mains. unless you put a frequency converter in between.


does the unit hold the same load as any other system? is the charge different (amount)? Is the high side pressure lower?

[Mr. Tinker]

If this isn't Xtreme News, I don't know what is.

[cryo-tek]

I missed the post were you said what oil is in the system. sorry.

compressor pumping speed only depends on the frequency of the mains. unless you put a frequency converter in between.


does the unit hold the same load as any other system? is the charge different (amount)? Is the high side pressure lower?

Checked the water tower and some one had turned the temp down. My water temp dropped 4c and my evap dropped 8c across the full load curve.
I think I need to look at the sizing of the Aux condenser.

Thanks for the help