What would it take to build a cryogenic cooler?

[Shingoshi]

Curious, do you plan on building your own vortex tubes or is there a factory shelf part within the sizing that you would need for your application?

And especially in the sizes needed for this application. I've made it my point lately to start using Google to get as many answers as I can, without having to ask here first. So try doing a simple check of Google for "vortex tubes", and you will see firsthand just how much of a selection there is for them.

Shingoshi

[ultralo1]

Do you just ignore questions or what?

Do you want help or not?

[sdumper]

Do you just ignore questions or what?

Apparently so

Do you want help or not?

Apparently not and I also noticed he has started spamming other threads.

[Shingoshi]

1.) How many BTUs/HR does this equal?
This is a needed value.
2.) How were you going to do this?
3.) This will need to be added into the total heat load.
4.) Since the compressors will be enclosed within this case, all the heat load from the compressors will have to be transfered to the outside. To figure out how much wattage that is, take the voltage mutiplied by the RLA and add 10%.

1.) That would have to be calculated. I've not seen any stats on the BTUs of heat output, because typically no one tries to rechill the heated gas leaving the vortex tube. Typically, it's just vented to the atmosphere. I need to first determine how low I can push the temperature of the inlet gas, before I can know at what point in the evaporation stream to cool the vortex tube's exhaust. If I do this in the wrong location, the cooling will be inhibited. But these are the numbers I have now for a typical vortex tube application:
pressurization inlet: 70F
heat outlet: 230F
cold outlet: -40F
A corresponding drop in inlet temperature will be seen in BOTH the heat and cold outlets. So if I can get the inlet temperature down to 0F using a heat-exchanger, BOTH of the outlet temperatures should drop by about the same amount.

The BTUs would have to be calculated based on the inlet pressure and flow rate in CFM to know what that number will be. I don't have that yet. I won't have the pressure and flow rates until I know for certain which compressors I will be using. The Danfoss compressors I was hoping to get are no longer available, again. I'm now looking for replacements. If I can figure out a way to use 230v, I've already found the compressor I could use.

2.) I'm running the exhaust heat from the vortex tubes through a heat-exchanger to pass that heat to the condenser.
3 & 4.) I plan on using the same kind of evaporators as used to be common in old freezers to cool the inside of the insulated computer case. I would rather build this system with an expected heat load of 2KW to be certain I have enough capacity to handle everything. I intend to use gel-packs from coolers to maintain the temperature, reducing the need for continuous cooling of the interior. Once the gel-packs are frozen, they will stabilize the interior temperatures more than if they weren't used at all. And the more packs used, the more stable the temperature.

Shingoshi

[ultralo1]

I intend to use gel-packs from coolers to maintain the temperature, reducing the need for continuous cooling of the interior. Once the gel-packs are frozen, they will stabilize the interior temperatures more than if they weren't used at all. And the more packs used, the more stable the temperature.

I thought you were intending 24/7 operation. How are gel packs going to help with that?

The BTUs would have to be calculated based on the inlet pressure and flow rate in CFM to know what that number will be.

Thats not how BTUs are calculated nor heat load.

2.) I'm running the exhaust heat from the vortex tubes through a heat-exchanger to pass that heat to the condenser.

IS that the Marine coil like condensor that you talked about few post back?

I plan on using the same kind of evaporators as used to be common in old freezers to cool the inside of the insulated computer case.

Is this going to be a seperate refrigeration system?

2 Kilowatt-hour equals to 6828.85189927 Btu

You are undersized already.

[Shingoshi]

As it turns out from discussing the issue of power with the apartment maintenance worker, all of the heating units here use 240v. I think that will take care of the issue of power usage. I just need to wait for approval to have the outlet installed. Hooray!

Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

I thought you were intending 24/7 operation.
1.) How are gel packs going to help with that?
2.) Thats not how BTUs are calculated nor heat load.
3.) IS that the Marine coil like condensor that you talked about few post back?
4.) Is this going to be a seperate refrigeration system?
5.) You are undersized already.

Simple question: Did you bother to look-up "vortex tube" on the internet? Because if you haven't done that, why do I have to keep explaining how they function to you. Frankly, I think you're looking for ways to be obstructive. But I'll try and answer your questions just the same.

1.) Do you even know what kind of gel-packs I'm talking about? They're the same as those used in camping coolers. Once they are frozen, they can keep an volume of space cool for a very long time. Having gel-packs in a freezer lowers the load on the freezer by not having to expend as much energy to maintain a given temperature. Because the gel-packs will resist heating better than the contents of the freezer.

2.) The amount of gas pumped through a vortex tube determines how many BTUs are produced in heat. But you need to know the vortex tube inlet pressure as well. Because the higher the vortex tube inlet pressure the lower BOTH outlet temperatures will be. And since I don't know for certain which compressor I will be using, I don't know how many CFM I will have to work with. Don't ask me any more questions about this until you have searched "vortex tube" yourself personally.

3.) The condenser I gave a picture of is an intercooler for a turbocharger. They are not the same. I thought about using the intercooler as a condenser because of it's volumetric capacity. Depending on how young you are, you probably have never seen the kind of evaporator that I'm talking about. They used to be external inside the freezer. Now, freezers are made with the evaporators inside the wall. They stopped using external evaporators about twenty-five years ago! You will only see them now in specialized environments. I think some combination mini refrigerator/freezers still use them. Like the small units that can sit on a desk or in a closet.

4.) I'm thinking of using the smaller compressors to provide sub-ambient cooling of the refrigerant from the larger compressor. So yes, it would be a separate refrigeration system. Although, I guess an inventive way of using a single refrigerant for both could easily be worked out. But there would still be only one external condenser for the entire system. The larger compressor would be using a heat-exchanger to pass it's heat to the exterior condenser.

5.) So if you think I'm undersized already, what do you think is an appropriate projected maximum load for this system as I have described it? Again, without knowing what my next compressor will be, how am I supposed to know the total load of the system? So what is the largest load you think I would be facing?

Shingoshi

[tiborrr]

1.) Do you even know what kind of gel-packs I'm talking about? They're the same as those used in camping coolers. Once they are frozen, they can keep an volume of space cool for a very long time. Having gel-packs in a freezer lowers the load on the freezer by not having to expend as much energy to maintain a given temperature. Because the gel-packs will resist heating better than the contents of the freezer.

Dear Lord! I think someone just beaten the Zeroth-, First- and Second Thermodynamic Law. Who do you think cools down the gel packs initialy, perhaps magic dust? It might come as a shocker to you, but everything cooled by an evaporator is a HEAT LOAD.

Someone please for the sake of vapor phase change forums lock this thread ASAP. This used to be a serious forums.

P.S.: ultralo1 is the guy with I-Don't-Know-How-Many-Long-Years-Of-Field-Experiences in very low temperature refrigeration.

[ultralo1]

Simple question: Did you bother to look-up "vortex tube" on the internet? Because if you haven't done that, why do I have to keep explaining how they function to you

Back at ya, did you bother to look up basic refrigeration? I guess its like trying to explain simple refrigeration to you.

Frankly, I think you're looking for ways to be obstructive.

Just how have I done that? All I have done is to point out some problems with your design ideas. If it and you cant stand up to little scrutiny then I suggest that you may want to go some where else to post. You see we have a few people here that are professionals. We help all we can and part of that is scrutinizing the designs.

1.) Do you even know what kind of gel-packs I'm talking about?

Unfortunatly thats what I was afraid you were talking about. Now if this is a 24/7 system when are you going to change them out? Where are you going to freeze them? These will not make it a self contained system like you have been telling us it will be.

2.) The amount of gas pumped through a vortex tube determines how many BTUs are produced in heat. But you need to know the vortex tube inlet pressure as well. Because the higher the vortex tube inlet pressure the lower BOTH outlet temperatures will be.

So you are going to raise the inlet pressure, and this will create a lower temp exhaust.

Basic physics: pressure equals heat period. Raise the pressure, raise the energy in the system.

Don't ask me any more questions about this until you have searched "vortex tube" yourself personally

A little snippy arent we. Are you having trouble standing up to a little scrutiny of your system. I have not asked you a single thing about vortex tubes.

I thought about using the intercooler as a condenser

I think you ment evap

4.) I'm thinking of using the smaller compressors to provide sub-ambient cooling of the refrigerant from the larger compressor. So yes, it would be a separate refrigeration system. Although, I guess an inventive way of using a single refrigerant for both could easily be worked out. But there would still be only one external condenser for the entire system. The larger compressor would be using a heat-exchanger to pass it's heat to the exterior condenser.

Let me see if I understand you:

The 4 rechies, in parallel and external to the case, will be providing the evap of the HX. This will be condensing the hot gas from the internal (to the case) comp. The condensed gas (liquid) will then goto a metering device which will discharge into the vortex tube. The refrigerant will then be split in the vortex tube. Some going to the exhaust side the other moving onto the internal (to the case) evap. This Colder output, from the V tube, is to be considerably colder than just the discharged refrigerant of the metering device.

The exhaust from the vortex tube will be condensed via a heat pipe, turbo expander, Turbocharger () and fall back down through the vortex tube, via gravity, to be sent onto the evap and returned to the compressor via the suction side.

All heat load from inside the case will be reflected out through the external "retchi" cooling system.

Close? If it is then you are basically building a cascade system with the second stage being internal to the case with a V tube between the Metering device and evap.

5.) So if you think I'm undersized already, what do you think is an appropriate projected maximum load for this system as I have described it? Again, without knowing what my next compressor will be, how am I supposed to know the total load of the system? So what is the largest load you think I would be facing?

So If I am understanding you correctly:
Then your combined internal heat load of the case will be the
1: Internal comp
2: Condensing heat of the refrigerant for that system
3: MOBOs approx 600W total, Are the power supplies internal to the case also?
4: External heat infiltration
5: Not sure about the condensing system for the exhaust of the V tube. That was going to be external, right?
6: Is this going to be radiant cooling or are you going to have a circulating fan? If a fan you have to account for that in your heat load calculation.
7: What is the target temp for the interior of the case?
8: Whats the target temp for subcooling the liquid refrigerant of the internal comp?

I think thats got it for now.

PS. Thanks Tiborrr

[Shingoshi]

I must really apologize for my twisting your arm into commenting here. I realize I've raised an issue you don't want to investigate. And I'm sorry you have no desire to understand it.

1.) I said the inside of the computer case is insulated. Did you see what I'm using for a computer case. It's a SEALED Pelican 1780 Transport case.
[IMG=http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.th.jpg] [IMG=http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7770/dsc00010daw.th.jpg]
2.) I'm basically turning that case into an INSULATED mini-freezer.
3.) The EVAPORATOR INSIDE the computer is what will cool the gel-packs.
4.) The gel-packs (once installed) will NEVER leave the inside of the case.
The deeper the temperature the gel-packs are frozen to, the longer it take for them to heat up:

Consequently the internal temperature will remain more stable over a longer period of time.

EVERYTHING that I've stated in this post, I've stated here before.

Physicists are still at a loss to explain why and how vortex tubes work. So don't quote me your understanding of physics, when those more qualified than you have no idea what's going on inside of one. Again, if you read about that, you would have seen that fact repeated in almost every place that vortex tubes are discussed by physicists. For crying out loud! Wikipedia would have told you this!

I meant exactly what I said about the intercooler. Just because I used the words INTERCOOLER and EVAPORATOR in the same sentence, doesn't mean I was talking about the same thing.

1.) I'm creating a separate cooling loop using the smaller compressors. Those four Rechi compressors will use the intercooler (because of the intercooler's sheer size) as their condenser. The evaporator for the external cooling loop will be the heat-exchanger for BOTH the warm internal refrigerant and the cooler external refrigerant will flow through. That heat-exchanger is replacing the condenser for the internal cooling loop.
I'm using the external condenser (the intercooler) and it's associated refrigeration system to cool the internal heat-exchanger and it's associated refrigeration system. The two separate systems only share the heat-exchanger in common.

2.) No, you don't understand me! If I haven't explained this well enough by now, I don't know what else to say. The four Rechis are inside the computer case. The only thing connected to the four Rechis, is the external condenser (the intercooler). And since I know you would like nothing more than to point out one intercooler is likely not enough, I already intend to use more than one. I just don't know yet if that will be two or four intercoolers connected to create one massive radiating body.

3.) The velocity of the gas that spins inside a vortex tube is relative to the pressure of the inlet gas. The higher the pressure, the higher the speed of rotation. The higher the speed of rotation, the greater the separation of temperature between the hot and cold gas leaving the vortex tube.

But you've made a good point. I've not seen exact numbers on whether the heated gas's temperature is lower or higher than before. It may be that the heated gas is at a higher temperature. In other words, I don't know if the change in temperature is equally divided between the cold and hot gases generated, or if the temperatures of both are lowered. But one thing is known, the cold gas generated by the higher rotational speed is much lower than with the typical pressure of 100psi.

4.) Instead of being sarcastic, if you read some of the documentation on vortex tubes I've posted here, you would have seen that this has already been done using turboexpanders or pulse-tubes. In one study, the vortex tube was connected to a pulse-tube, and the temperature of the heated gas was cooled and sent back into the stream. Turboexpanders do the same thing with temperatures much higher than what a vortex tube produces. In fact, turboexpanders are used to rechill superheated steam to sub-zero temperatures. Again, you probably haven't looked those up either. There's nothing of gravity to do with this, other than you wanting to be sarcastic!

5.) Snippy? Every question you've posted here depends on the function of the vortex tubes and their ability to cool gases.

6.) And let me REPEAT this again. The ONLY thing on the exterior of the computer case, is the CONDENSER.

7.) What I'm doing will resemble this somewhat:


An even better explanation would be this. Take this image above and duplicate it, having one image above the other (I've already done it, so you won't have to imagine it!). So the the condenser at the top of the bottom image and the evaporator of the top image is the heat-exchanger shared between them that I spoke of. That should hopefully make better sense. Because there are in fact two separate refrigerant loops at work here.

The (Rechi) compressor for the top image will be the external condenser refrigerant system.
The bottom image's condenser and the top image's evaporator are BOTH replaced by a SINGLE heat-exchanger between BOTH images.
The (Unknown) compressor for the bottom image will be the internal refrigerant system.
The topmost condenser is the only thing that's outside of the system environment.

I really have to apologize if English isn't your first language! I can understand then how reading English documentation would be a problem for you.

Shingoshi

[teyber]

seems like bob-who-likes-to-work-on-his-car-on-weekends (or rather pretend he does) is trying to win a automobile argument with mr. porsche with personal attacks, woman's argument strategy (never be direct, never answer questions asked but rather bring up other questions), and random information being the only thing going for him

[SoddemFX]

Looks like bob-who-likes-to-work-on-his-car-on-weekends bought a Haynes manual but wrote his car off with a "one spanner" task. Of course this is the fault of Mr Porsche who did not understand the complexity of bobs 5lb lump hammer...

Tom

[tiborrr]

Don't know if it's funny or sad anymore.

[Moc]

Why do you want to keep the compressors inside the case?

Stop reading docs about vortex tubes... just read this:
http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/rb1.htm

[wdrzal]

Shingoshi

Vortex tubes have a real low COP as DetroitAC has told you. Primarily the are used on compressed air & exhausted to slightly above 1 atmosphere,usually ~2 to~5psi. I looked at some of the ones you posted, one of the most powerful gave ~2600 BTU's @ 35CFM w/70 degree inlet. You even used the 35 CFM in one of our questions. So lets talk about 35CFM @ 100 psi. First realize there is no phase change happening in these vortex tubes.

I have tubes I use for cool suites and helmets for sandblasting & have installed some for a aerospace manufacturer who could not use traditional cutting fluid on the alloy being milled so their bits where air cooled.

In general @ 100 psi You get ~4 maybe ~5 CFM per HP on a air compressor.So if using air you would need about a ~7.5 hp air compressor. So 746 watts(1hp) x 7.5 hp =~5595watts .just under 6 kw/hour. Where I live I pay .10cents per kilowatt/hr. So .60 cents x 24 hours= 14.40 a day x30 days= $432.00 a month on your electric bill running 24/7.

You can have a much better COP with a traditional vapor/compression cycle.

Maybe you should look at how much you can afford and willing to pay,or how many watts/amps are available ,an let that determine your cooling capacity.

BTW unless both the hot and cold discharge to a much lower pressure they won't work.....also if there is a large imbalance they won't work.

~-150 to ~120c all inside that box..............While CPU work better and faster @ low temperatures,the motherboard capacitors don't like the cold.Also you WILL have oil lubercation issues @ the temps you hope to achieve.

Guys here struggle to get a single CPU to -80 or -90c under load with 2 stage cascades.

As to the old plate evaps in fridges ,that was back in the day before self
defrosting fridges. The iced up and every so often every thing in the freezer had to be removed and the freezer defrosted.

Reading your posts I'm not sure you understand that there is a difference between Temperature (measured in Celsius,Fahrenheit,Kelvin) and Heat (measured in BTU's, watts,kj/kg,calories)

Your load inside your case is going to be all the power supplied to the motherboards/w/cpu's/gpu's /fans/pumps/ ect plus all the wattage supplied to the compressors +heat load of the case itself since the inside will be colder than the outside. Oh and unless you have a very well insulated interior,the outside will sweat or grow frost if cold enough.

Will the inside be filled with air or another gas? does that case have a o ring gasket? While you google & Wiki all these different cycles & devices your over looking some of the most basic principles of refrigeration & Thermodynamics.

All refrigeration does is take heat from one place and move it to another (period). (Energy can not be created nor destroyed)


So every watt (1 watt=3.412 Btu's) of power that goes into the case by way of power cord must be moved back out of the case and rejected + add the heat load of the case.

[ultralo1]

I must really apologize for my twisting your arm into commenting here

No problem, I dont mind spoon feeding you the information.

I said the inside of the computer case is insulated

Whats the R value. Typical commercial cascades that reach -80C and below have an R value of 40+. This is needed to lower the heat infiltration and to reduce external condensation.

Consequently the internal temperature will remain more stable over a longer period of time.

This is technique is using thermal mass to stabilize the system.

EVERYTHING that I've stated in this post, I've stated here before

Please see my sig line. This baby is your idea, yet you have not provided us with a detailed summary of the system. You have provided enough links to choke a horse, and no I did not read them. It is not my job to read links so that I can understand just WTF you are talking about. It is Your job to present your idea up for peer review and then defend your position under scrutiny.

Physicists are still at a loss to explain why and how vortex tubes work

Are these from peer reviewed papers or just article on the net? I am betting "just on the net"

I meant exactly what I said about the intercooler

If you will read what you said in that paragragh you jumped from talking about condensors straight to evaps in freezers. I wll take the hit and say I did not understand it.

An even better explanation would be this

So you ARE building a totally enclosed 2 stage cascade, with all the compressors located inside the chilled case. Along with the addition of the Vtubes.

I am no phyisist but I am feeling something here about over unity , and free energy. (yes, that one truly is intened to be sarcastic)

MOre to follow, so stick around

[Shingoshi]

Why do you want to keep the compressors inside the case?

Stop reading docs about vortex tubes... just read this:
http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/rb1.htm

I'm reading it now.

My goal was to have a system that could be moved without having to keep track of "what am I missing here? So I want everything kept together for integrity sake. That's why I only wanted the intercooler/condenser mounted outside of the case. Maybe that's delusional. But it's my delusion just the same. I think I should be entitled to at least one grand delusion.

Wdrzal, from what I was reading after your detailed post here before (which I think I appreciatively acknowledged), I thought I found what was evidence of means to deal/cope with the heat output of the vortex tubes. The two most promising solutions given from research was turboexpanders and pulse-tubes. Where the vortex tube's heat and oscillations were used to drive either of the two aforementioned resolutions.

Basically, the turboexpander becomes another expansion device. And the vortex tube replaces the typical driving mechanisms for pulse-tubes. So both wind up recovering what would have otherwise been lost as wasted heat. Yes, it comes down to a matter of practicality. The expense of both of them tends to rule them out. So I've been trying to determine another means of accomplishing what those two devices perform.

I'm still looking at how much of a performance gain can be seen from driving the vortex tubes with very cold (hopefully sub-zero C) inlet gas. I meant put the vortex tube between the TXV and the evaporator. All of the temperature measurements for the vortex tubes have been based on room temperature (using the Fahrenheit scale). And yes, I certainly know the difference between Celsius and Fahrenheit. I just don't think I should be required to give numbers in only one system, when most of you already know how to do your own conversions.

Shingoshi

[wdrzal]

I Said:

Reading your posts I'm not sure you understand that there is a difference between Temperature (measured in Celsius,Fahrenheit,Kelvin) and Heat (measured in BTU's, watts,kj/kg,calories)

[Shingoshi]

I Said:

Reading your posts I'm not sure you understand that there is a difference between Temperature (measured in Celsius,Fahrenheit,Kelvin) and Heat (measured in BTU's, watts,kj/kg,calories)

I'm sorry I didn't catch that. Yeah, you're probably right. I need to have a better understanding of the difference so that I won't confuse things.

Let me see if this is correct:
Temperature is what we use to measure how warm something is.
Heat is what the thing we're measuring contains, and what's required to change it's temperature. In other words, you have to remove a given amount of heat to change the temperature of a thing?

Correct me. I'll gladly accept it!
Shingoshi

[wdrzal]

I'm sorry I didn't catch that. Yeah, you're probably right. I need to have a better understanding of the difference so that I won't confuse things.

Let me see if this is correct:
Temperature is what we use to measure how warm something is.
Heat is the ENERGY or (Thermal Energy) we're measuring that a objects mass contains, and what's required to change it's temperature. In other words, you have to remove a given amount of heat to change the temperature of a thing?

Correct me. I'll gladly accept it!
Shingoshi

Lets replace thing with Energy.

[Shingoshi]

So you need to know the latent heat (the amount required to change it's phase), and from that, you'll know how much energy is required to change it's temperature? I think I'm wrong! Maybe getting closer, but still wrong nonetheless.

I really do need to get a book and read. Sorry guys!

Shingoshi

[ultralo1]

(the amount required to change it's phase),

Changing phase uses the latent heat of vaporization and latent heat of fusion.
Its been a very long time since I have had to remember the definitons of these so here is a Wiki link to get you started. I dont want to tell you the wrong thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat

I really do need to get a book and read.

I will keep my sarcasm in check.

[Shingoshi]

Changing phase uses the latent heat of vaporization and latent heat of fusion.
Its been a very long time since I have had to remember the definitons of these so here is a Wiki link to get you started. I dont want to tell you the wrong thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat

I will keep my sarcasm in check.

Sitting there having to resist the opportunity to bite back. Oh the sheer pain of restraint!

Thanks! It really is appreciated. Especially after our past exchanges.

Shingoshi

[teyber]

Changing phase uses the latent heat of vaporization and latent heat of fusion.
Its been a very long time since I have had to remember the definitons of these so here is a Wiki link to get you started. I dont want to tell you the wrong thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat




I will keep my sarcasm in check.

Since high school chem?

[Shingoshi]

If so, would you please explain it to me. Please! I saw something like this connected to a vortex tube. Here's the link to it. You'll need to have membership as I do. But it's free and worth the effort.


Shingoshi