X

    Subscribe to New Ads!

    Receive weekly ads in your inbox!



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29

Thread: Pump Noise Decoupling Comparison Video

  1. #1
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Bend, Oregon
    Posts
    5,693

    Pump Noise Decoupling Comparison Video

    Another somewhat random pump noise experiment compares direct metal vs. neoprene vs. egg-crate...

    Zoom to the end if you just want the top speed comparison portion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx7-n3FBeDI

    A-weighted frequency response differences:



    And for those who would like to provide cooling and decoupling benefits to the DDC series, here is one idea:
    http://martinsliquidlab.org/2011/03/...-cooling-lift/

    Last edited by Martinm210; 03-04-2011 at 04:58 PM.

  2. #2
    Xtreme Mentor
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,622
    Yep, it shows. Good test Martin. The egg crate or just about anything except direct metal mounting makes a world of diff. I'm sure the sound to you is more like a GT fan now, if you get my drift.

    Eggcellent chart work too!
    All stock for now, no need for more, but it's gonna be soon methinks.
    Giga Xtreme 58 mobo i7 965 ES D0 step Corsair 1600 6 gig
    SLI GTX470 EVGA
    EK HF nickle blue top CPU block (free from Eddie)
    Koolance 470 waterblocks
    One big loop, two 120x3 rads. Pa 120.3 and XSPC RX 120x3. Swiftech 35x pump with V2 restop. GT AP15 fans.
    Banchetto Tech Station
    120 GB SSD, and a few other drives.
    1000W UltraX3 PSU, 900 watt (1500VA UPS
    23.999" Acer GD235hz and 24" Acer H243H

  3. #3
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,171
    Great work and comparison. I've never tried an egg crate on a DDC. I wonder how Petras Gel-Stuff compares.

  4. #4
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Bend, Oregon
    Posts
    5,693
    Yeah, I guess I always assumed any little bit of decoupling is good enough, but there is some difference. I've generally been happy with just the neoprene pads myself. Might be interesting to have sort of a larger decoupling shootout. While the egg-crate functions really well, it also gets first place for hideous visual appeal..

  5. #5
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    271
    When I think of egg crate I think of those acrylic light diffuser panels.
    However that was clarified a few years back when I began my career in the cruise biz and found that people ask for (eggcrate) when they feel uncomfortable sleeping on their beds.

    Anyhow, as you can see sitting the pump on foam is pretty effective at decoupling. The next step would be your hoses. Yes any rigidity in the hose will amplify the sound.

    Want to see how loud a pump can really get? Bolt it firmly to a large aluminum chassis and plumb everything in rigid pipe with no flexible hose at all. I bet it would hum like a really loud tar ballast - easily heard in the next room.

  6. #6
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Miami,Fl
    Posts
    298
    Martin, when I first got my mcp355, I was impressed by how relatively quiet it was, at least in comparison to the pair of ddc-2's that I have.

    However placing a load on it, definitely increased the level of noise, and dampening the sound works great if you do it completely. The other option that works not quite as well is to suspend it. In my case, it's hanging via tubing from my res.

    I'm still not happy with the noise, but it's tolerable.

  7. #7
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    325
    Hi Martin, have you considered the 'gel stuff' from Petras? That gel is amazing. I've been using it for the past 3 years now. PTS still carries the product too.

    The only downside is that the gel shrinks in size over time.

  8. #8
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Bend, Oregon
    Posts
    5,693
    Quote Originally Posted by Rubycon View Post
    When I think of egg crate I think of those acrylic light diffuser panels.
    However that was clarified a few years back when I began my career in the cruise biz and found that people ask for (eggcrate) when they feel uncomfortable sleeping on their beds.

    Anyhow, as you can see sitting the pump on foam is pretty effective at decoupling. The next step would be your hoses. Yes any rigidity in the hose will amplify the sound.

    Want to see how loud a pump can really get? Bolt it firmly to a large aluminum chassis and plumb everything in rigid pipe with no flexible hose at all. I bet it would hum like a really loud tar ballast - easily heard in the next room.
    Yeah, not sure if this was actually used to crate eggs back in the days, or if it was simply a similar shape. But it's the term most people around here use for the stuff. Most of what you can buy in stores is actally more of a wave than the egg crate. I just happen to have a big chunk in the garage which met up with a pair of scissors...

    Quote Originally Posted by avddreamr View Post
    Martin, when I first got my mcp355, I was impressed by how relatively quiet it was, at least in comparison to the pair of ddc-2's that I have.

    However placing a load on it, definitely increased the level of noise, and dampening the sound works great if you do it completely. The other option that works not quite as well is to suspend it. In my case, it's hanging via tubing from my res.

    I'm still not happy with the noise, but it's tolerable.
    Yeah, I've heard of a few people that have done the "Suspend" idea with tubing, depends on the setup, and probably the stiffness of the tubing, but that seems like a good way to decouple plus allow air cooling of the base of the DDC series.

    Quote Originally Posted by jinsean View Post
    Hi Martin, have you considered the 'gel stuff' from Petras? That gel is amazing. I've been using it for the past 3 years now. PTS still carries the product too.

    The only downside is that the gel shrinks in size over time.
    I've never had some, but might place an order. I'd also like to try an official shoggy sandwich.

  9. #9
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,065
    how is it possible for the eggcrate to be that damping? is it because of the height? Martin

  10. #10
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Bend, Oregon
    Posts
    5,693
    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentarius View Post
    how is it possible for the eggcrate to be that damping? is it because of the height? Martin
    It's soft and more flexible is all. I think in general the thicker and more flexible the interface, the better the decoupling.

    Not sure that I would recommend it because it's so hideous, but it seems to work.

    I was just tinkering with test conditions and measurement. The egg crate seems like an easy near ideal coupling, and the direct metal contact the worst case.

    I haven't quite landing on my methods for testing and comparing all the pumps yet. May round 1&2 seemed to be having microphone troubles. Vibrations from the test bench were transferring into the microphone tripod and I was suspecting the same could be happening to the sound level meter. This was actually intended more as a setup trial than actually testing decoupling methods, but I through in the multiple decoupling scenario's just for fun...

    I'm going to order some Petra's gel stuff to give that a shot too.
    Last edited by Martinm210; 03-03-2011 at 05:19 PM.

  11. #11
    I am Xtreme
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Imperial Palace, UDE of Pitatopia
    Posts
    8,392
    There is a reason we don't put gel under DDC's anymore.

    http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=165299
    Circles SucQ!

    If your annoyed by sigs telling you to put things in your sig, then put this in your sig

    Bribery won't work on me...just say NO to AT!!!

  12. #12
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Bend, Oregon
    Posts
    5,693
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterlogged View Post
    There is a reason we don't put gel under DDC's anymore.

    http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=165299
    Thanks for the memories...

    I suppose any sort of decoupler is going to have heat issues directly between pump and case with the DDC series....D5's are fine though as their metal casing seems to watercool itself well enough without the heat build up.

    The trick to the DDC airflow would be some sort of bracket to lift it, then decouple beween that bracket and case.

    A UN bracket would work:


    OR, make your own, Some c-channel steel or aluminum would probably work well enough also. Just need something to lift the pump away from the decoupler and still provide some air flow.

  13. #13
    Xtreme Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    135
    Hey martinm, I found a cool way to mount a pump that I'd like to try out

    Check this out:


    It's basically some big orings (you can buy them in all kinds of shapes and sizes for a buck in your local plumber store or whatever you have in the US!) fitted to the sides using zip ties

    I'd like to try it myself but I don't have room in this cabinet hmm maybe it's time to get a MM case?!

  14. #14
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,884
    Decided to try it out:



    So far it sounds good. Pretty good noise reduction. The only vibrations I hear are being tranmitted to the reservoir due to the short piece of tubing in between the res and pump.
    “Little expense had been spared to create the impression that no expense had been spared.” - Hitchhiker's Guide
    It's better to ask dumb questions now, than to look stupid later
    Mondays:

  15. #15
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,171
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterlogged View Post
    There is a reason we don't put gel under DDC's anymore.

    http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=165299
    I wouldn't put a DDC on anything without having the bottom vented. I would cut out a circle in the center of the Gel Stuff under the pump and have it sitting so that the center of the pump is sitting over a case hole or something.

  16. #16
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Bend, Oregon
    Posts
    5,693
    I worked up this quick cooling "Lift" blog...but a variety of other options exist too.





    With this you could use gelstuff or any sort of decoupling material without any heat worries.
    Last edited by Martinm210; 03-04-2011 at 05:04 PM.

  17. #17
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    2,193
    Nice test Martin. I've used an assortment of things, from Petra's gel pad (which melted under my DDC), the stock foam pad, and sponges. I then decided to try to cook up something of my own and went to Home Depot for ideas. A rubber trowel for spreading tile grout caught my eye. Five dollars later and a bit of handy work and I had myself a seriously good noise isolation device. Note that I didn't attach it with screws, you don't want the vibrations going through from solid surface to solid surface.


  18. #18
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Bend, Oregon
    Posts
    5,693
    Nice!

    I think I'll order some gel stuff and see if I can round up some commercial random materials for a larger decoupling comparison. Not sure anything will beat the really thick soft foams, but maybe there is something that works nearly as well while having some visual appeal as well.

    You can also buy the gel stuff from Mcmaster here:
    http://www.mcmaster.com/#rubber-sheet-gel/=balrgw

    A 12" x 12" piece is $33....could stack a few layers with that much..

  19. #19
    Xtreme Cruncher
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    Posts
    671
    Some traditional isolators would be cool too. I really like the lift. To take care of both problems without a pad, replace the bolts and nylon spacers with some very soft threaded isolation mounts and I bet you'd really have something there.


    I would love to get some of these.
    http://www.enidine.com/Industrial/CWRMain.html & http://www.enidine.com/Industrial/Wi...Isolators.html
    You get isolation and a thermal path. I worked on a program that intended to use something like these to mount 'electronics'. It was a for a high-g, high-vibration, high-shock environment. If anyone knows where to get miniature wire-rope isolators retail, I'd like to know.
    upgrading...

  20. #20
    Xtreme X.I.P.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Bend, Oregon
    Posts
    5,693
    Quote Originally Posted by vhaarr View Post
    Hey martinm, I found a cool way to mount a pump that I'd like to try out

    Check this out:


    It's basically some big orings (you can buy them in all kinds of shapes and sizes for a buck in your local plumber store or whatever you have in the US!) fitted to the sides using zip ties

    I'd like to try it myself but I don't have room in this cabinet hmm maybe it's time to get a MM case?!
    I like it. I was actually looking for some large O-rings like that yesterday when I found my nylon spacers, but the store I was looking at didn't quite have any that big. I think any sort of suspension trick like that should work pretty goo.

    Quote Originally Posted by voigts View Post
    I wouldn't put a DDC on anything without having the bottom vented. I would cut out a circle in the center of the Gel Stuff under the pump and have it sitting so that the center of the pump is sitting over a case hole or something.
    Yeah, they do get hot. Waterlog's link to the melting gel-stuff was enough to convince me. I think I saw some of that a long time ago, but have since forgotten. Even with the base exposed, I was measuring upwards of 55C at the base on the 35X, so insulating that can only make it worse. Lifting or suspending or some other sort of airflow trick should probably go hand in hand with any decoupling.

    Quote Originally Posted by meanmoe View Post
    Some traditional isolators would be cool too. I really like the lift. To take care of both problems without a pad, replace the bolts and nylon spacers with some very soft threaded isolation mounts and I bet you'd really have something there.


    I would love to get some of these.
    http://www.enidine.com/Industrial/CWRMain.html & http://www.enidine.com/Industrial/Wi...Isolators.html
    You get isolation and a thermal path. I worked on a program that intended to use something like these to mount 'electronics'. It was a for a high-g, high-vibration, high-shock environment. If anyone knows where to get miniature wire-rope isolators retail, I'd like to know.
    Oh...those are cool! Curious how well they work. Seems like metal wire would be a bit more rigid, but maybe not in a suspension system like that.

  21. #21
    Xtreme Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    787
    I'm using the foam pads that came with my EK blocks. I put two layers, both folded in half and it works like a charm! Not only that but I also get to re-use packing material so I save the environment with my mighty dampening solution

  22. #22
    Xtreme Guru
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    In the Land down -under-
    Posts
    4,439
    Not sure what everyone saying dont use the pads, dont really heat up enough to ruin the pcb's.. Good ventilated case is more then enough for mine.. Thanks for the testing martin!

    Another thing I find funny is AMD/Intel would snipe any of our Moms on a grocery run if it meant good quarterly results, and you are forever whining about what feser did?

  23. #23
    Xtreme Addict
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    1,884
    Johnny, same reason we say: don't use barbs without clamps. 9 out of 10 times it will go perfectly fine, but we'd rather not take responsibility for that one time it does fail just because we said it most likely would be fine. In other words: Best to be safe than sorry. Especially regarding other people's stuff .
    “Little expense had been spared to create the impression that no expense had been spared.” - Hitchhiker's Guide
    It's better to ask dumb questions now, than to look stupid later
    Mondays:

  24. #24
    Xtreme Cruncher
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    Posts
    671
    Quote Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post
    Oh...those are cool! Curious how well they work. Seems like metal wire would be a bit more rigid, but maybe not in a suspension system like that.
    It wasn't so much a suspension system, as an isolation system. The electronics had to be kept in spec while the world around them vibrated on the way up.

    When they were doing the trade on what to use, I got to play with some minis that were bought to go on a satellite. I think they were more rigid axially than laterally and the resistance was nonlinear. In fact, I think that they had very little resistance laterally and I think that's why they worked well as isolators. The vibration was transfered into low frequency motion on one side of the rope dissipating the energy that would've been vibration on the other side of the rope (the attachment point).

    I just really want a set 'cause I also think they're cool - it's like the industrial version of the bungee method that we've been using on hard drives for some time. And I personally don't like pads for what Alexandr0s said and because for them to work, they get awkward. The 1" egg crate foam is a perfect example - it works surprisingly well, but I really don't want to put it in my case. And now I have a potential heat issue because I don't ventilate well, I watercool.

    I'd also like to see the UN brackets tested in your setup when you decide to go that way of testing ... (hey Armeniandave!)

    As always, I really admire what you do.
    Last edited by meanmoe; 03-06-2011 at 10:07 AM.
    upgrading...

  25. #25
    Xtreme Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    581
    I would too!!
    i7 970 4.0 Ghz 1.325v // Asus P6X58D Premium // Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit // 12gb Corsair Dominators // 2- GTX 580 Hydrocoppers in SLI// 2-OCZ Vertex 2 Raid//128Gb Corsair SSD (Temp Storage) // Custom Wall Mount Case // Corsair 1000W // SyncMaster 2433BW // Dual loops 2-laing 355's each with XSPC dual top // (UN) 3G Brackets & X-Brackets // Swiftech Apogee XT // 2 x 120.3 & 2 x 120.2 Swiftech Rads//

    Wall Mount Build Log: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=242186
    MM Extended Ascension Build Log:http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=212236[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •