PA120.1 vs. MCR-320QP

[Gunlance]

I just noticed something on those graphs. Thermochill's only goes up to 2gpm while the swiftech one goes to 4 gpm. Only considering the graphs up til 2gpm yeilds the MCR320 with about 450 watts of heat dissapation. At 2gpm for the pa120.2 you get 425 watts roughly.

So in my book, the fact that the pa is able to cool nearly as much as the mcr320 while being smaller makes it better(completely subjective on my part). Technically the mcr still beats it. However, the testing(on the mcr) was done with a Delta WFB1212M @ 12v while a weaker fan was used on the PA.

[sick_g4m3r]

Thermochill's not all they're cracked up to be? In time you'll see my young padawan.



http://www.thermochill.com/pa1202.php
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=99721

Radical has done a few tests for the forums and is well regarded.

WTF. Dont treat me like a little kid, because you think you are some hot shot crowd follower. I provided the charts from the websites of both parties, and the results have showed the 320 eats the 120.2 for breakfast.

Dont feed me Thermochill's biased charts and the liquid cooling section's obvious love for Thermochills, because I showed you the true unbiased facts.

[HiJon89]

The truth is, the PA120.2 is a good bit better than the MCR220, the MCR320 is a good bit better than the PA120.2, and the PA120.3 is a good bit better than the MCR320. How much will the difference between these radiators impact your temps? Unless you have an overclocked quadcore and an 8800GTX, you're not going to notice much of a difference at all. In most cases the best idea is to go with what fits your case and with what fits your wallet.

[Gunlance]

WTF. Dont treat me like a little kid, because you think you are some hot shot crowd follower. I provided the charts from the websites of both parties, and the results have showed the 320 eats the 120.2 for breakfast.

How does having a 25(roughly) watt advantage turn into eating for breakfast? Strap the same fans on both and I'm willing to wager that they do in fact equal out.

[sick_g4m3r]

How does having a 25(roughly) watt advantage turn into eating for breakfast? Strap the same fans on both and I'm willing to wager that they do in fact equal out.

........try 80W.......

80W-100W actually 1.5GPM to 2.0GPM. before you question me, i am questioning you: can you even read graphs?

Now that is A Lot.

[Gunlance]

........try 80W.......

80W-100W actually 1.5GPM to 2.0GPM. before you question me, i am questioning you: can you even read graphs?

Now that is A Lot.

I dunno about your eyes but I see that the MCR looks like 450 at 2.0gpm.

So take your horse attitude and stick it up your ass you dip.

[sick_g4m3r]

I dunno about your eyes but I see that the MCR looks like 450 at 2.0gpm.

So take your horse attitude and stick it up your ass you dip.

WTF you little ( i am not going to say it), you should get a referral soon

We are looking at the SECOND line of the PA graph and the FIRST line of the MCR graph.

You have the MCR graph right @ 450W @ 2gpm.

NOW look at the SECOND line of the PA graph...350W @ 2gpm

Get it now??

EDIT: Now naturally I presume you wont respond, so I think the embarrassment has set it, no?

[ranker]

WTF. Dont treat me like a little kid, because you think you are some hot shot crowd follower. I provided the charts from the websites of both parties, and the results have showed the 320 eats the 120.2 for breakfast.

Dont feed me Thermochill's biased charts and the liquid cooling section's obvious love for Thermochills, because I showed you the true unbiased facts.

Hot shot crowd follower eh? I own 3 Swiftech rads, including 2 220's and a 320 in addition to a bunch of PA's (2 PA120.3's, 2 PA120.2's 1 PA160, and a PA120.1).

The funny thing is that if you claim Thermochill's charts as being biased, then what makes Swiftech's charts an graphs unbiased? Or are you simply wanting to believe what you own is the best there is and that very company won't lie to you but the other company would? Your reasoning seems a bit flawed and seems to be tainted by the fact that you personally only own Swiftech's rads and not Thermochill's.

Radical has done a few tests in the past and is an unbiased member of the forum. He doesn't post much in the WC forum these days but most of us found it as "real world" as one can get. The great thing was that it didn't even start out as a TC vs Swiftech test but was meant to enlighten all of us about the differences between push/pull. His test results show that the PA120.2 and Swiftech MCR320 are roughly equal. Is it the absolute truth? No idea, but his previous tests were widely accepted.

This forum loves BOTH TC and Swiftech rads. As you'll see in my posts and in everyone else's, Swiftech's rads wins in the price/performance department for those of us in the US, while the TC radiators win the performance crown. There is no doubt that the PA120.2 outperforms the MCR220 and there is no doubt that the MCR320 outperforms the PA120.2, and the PA120.3 outperforms the MCR320. However, his tests merely showed that the MCR320's performance advantage over the PA120.2 was pretty slim.

I believe your ownership of one particular brand of products and not the other has led you to fervently defend the product you own and attack the other.

[serialk11r]

AHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA sick gamer you really are sick from gaming too much or something. The charts you provided don't compare the rads to each other :P The first chart doesn't say what fans are used, the second does.

[sick_g4m3r]

The funny thing is that if you claim Thermochill's charts as being biased, then what makes Swiftech's charts an graphs unbiased? Or are you simply wanting to believe what you own is the best there is and that very company won't lie to you but the other company would? Your reasoning seems a bit flawed and seems to be tainted by the fact that you personally only own Swiftech's rads and not Thermochill's.

Radical has done a few tests in the past and is an unbiased member of the forum. He doesn't post much in the WC forum these days but most of us found it as "real world" as one can get. The great thing was that it didn't even start out as a TC vs Swiftech test but was meant to enlighten all of us about the differences between push/pull.

This forum loves BOTH TC and Swiftech rads. As you'll see in my posts and in everyone else's, Swiftech's rads wins in the price/performance department for those of us in the US, while the TC radiators win the performance crown.

I believe your ownership of one particular brand of products and not the other has led you to fervently defend the product you own and attack the other.

First, I claim thermochill's testing of BOTH the 320 and the 120.2 to be biased towards thermochill. The independant testing of the 320 by swiftech and the 120.2 by thermochill are both biased towards their own product, but cancel out.

I trust the charts of the companies on THEIR OWN PRODUCT, and not testing another companies product alondside their own.

As can be seen, the PA120.2 holds out admirably, matching the competitions' triple-fan radiator, whilst exhibiting less noise due to fewer fans in play.

This is under the chart that compares the two, and clearly Thermochill is biased towards their own. Testing the "competition" alongside their own product is much more biased then two independant product tests by the companies.

And finally for the record I have a seven year old dell and own absolutely no watercooling parts, I rely on charts and graphs and the numbers to sway my thinking.

[sick_g4m3r]

AHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA sick gamer you really are sick from gaming too much or something. The charts you provided don't compare the rads to each other :P

WTH??? Nice to see you.

ANd nice personal attack you fruitcake. They are independant charts with the SAME FANS at 12V under the exact same circumstances, showing the cooling capacity under that 10C delta.

This is the most unbiased and unaltered way to test.

And I really want to diss you, but i think i might hurt your little feelings.

[serialk11r]

WTH??? Nice to see you.

ANd nice personal attack you fruitcake. They are independant charts with the SAME FANS at 12V under the exact same circumstances, showing the cooling capacity under that 10C delta.

This is the most unbiased and unaltered way to test.

And I really want to diss you, but i think i might hurt your little feelings.

I don't see any labels that say they're using the same fans...you sure you're not dyslexic? People who switched over to Thermochill SEE their water temps go down by a bit...there's nothing you can say or do that will make thermochills perform worse somehow lol.

[sick_g4m3r]

For the record I am keeping my cool big time from disgracing you.

http://www.swiftech.com/products/MCR320-qp.asp

This is the MCR320 frame. Scroll down to where you see blue in the fan section, as tested. They are the SAME fans 1212M@12v

[ranker]

For the record I am keeping my cool big time from disgracing you.

http://www.swiftech.com/products/MCR320-qp.asp

This is the MCR320 frame. Scroll down to where you see blue in the fan section, as tested. They are the SAME fans 1212M@12v

There's no need to take things so personally. The fans may be the same, but who is to say that they were conducted under the same exact conditions. I do believe Swiftech and Thermochill to be telling the truth and not fudging their numbers as they are probably the two most reputable companies in watercooling. However, unless those two tests were done under the same setup, would it be a stretch of the imagination to see that the results may be skewed unintentionally?

Radical's tests, done with the same loop/config, showed the MCR320 to be marginally better than the PA120.2. At least in his tests, they were done under the same conditions.

[HiJon89]

WTF. Dont treat me like a little kid, because you think you are some hot shot crowd follower. I provided the charts from the websites of both parties, and the results have showed the 320 eats the 120.2 for breakfast.

Dont feed me Thermochill's biased charts and the liquid cooling section's obvious love for Thermochills, because I showed you the true unbiased facts.

Thermochill has no bias, I have 100% faith in their testing methods, testing results, and their honesty. It really doesn't matter what the graphs say, those results were obtained from two completely different testbeds in very different conditions and cannot be compared to each other. Who knows what ambient temps were used in the Swiftech tests? They don't specify anything about the testing conditions under which their results were obtained. I'm not saying Swiftech altered their results, because I am also quite sure their results are truthful, but since they were obtained under different (not to mention unknown) conditions they are really useless for comparison except between the MCR220 and the MCR320.

[serialk11r]

Those charts look about right. And yes I mean thermochill's as well. The test where mcr320 was put against the pa120.2...well the water temps were very close. I don't see where you're getting the impression that the thermochill is being slaughtered. I see the thermochill, with 1 less fan, getting very close to the swifty with 1 more fan, at lower restriction.

[sick_g4m3r]

80W-100W more at the same delta IMO is a slaughter. And not looking at the .3PSI less restriction or w/e (i didnt look), etc. ; its all irrelevant.

I won this argument because I know the information. And thanks for bashing me multiple times. You are lucky I kept my cool.

[HiJon89]

80W-100W more at the same delta IMO is a slaughter. And not looking at the .3PSI less restriction or w/e (i didnt look), etc. ; its all irrelevant.

I won this argument because I know the information. And thanks for bashing me multiple times. You are lucky I kept my cool.

How is the restriction irrelevant to a radiator's performance? I'm quite sure the Mora 2 will dissipate more heat than the PA120.3 but that doesn't mean it will get you lower temps.
http://www.3dnexus.de/temp/wak%FC/bericht/wk008.jpg
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/2...nli174a8ci.jpg

[sick_g4m3r]

How is the restriction irrelevant to a radiator's performance? I'm quite sure the Mora 2 will dissipate more heat than the PA120.3 but that doesn't mean it will get you lower temps.
http://www.3dnexus.de/temp/wak%FC/bericht/wk008.jpg
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/2...nli174a8ci.jpg

AHH

ITS IRRELEVANT UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES

We are talking about performance of the PA120.2 and the MCR320. The MCR can get 100W more at the same delta with the same fans at the same volts.

THATS THE BOTTOM LINE

[HiJon89]

AHH

ITS IRRELEVANT UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES

We are talking about performance of the PA120.2 and the MCR320. The MCR can get 100W more at the same delta with the same fans at the same volts.

THATS THE BOTTOM LINE

We do not know under what conditions the Swiftech testing occurred, making it impossible to compare to it to the ThermoChill testing. What pump did Swiftech use? What water blocks were in the loop? What was used to generate the heat load? How were temperatures measured? What was the ambient temperature? All of these unknowns will greatly impact the test results.

[.Logic]

Doesn't look like he's going to be convinced guys...

Sick G4m3r you started a thread on this forum to ask an opinion, did you not? You have shown however, that you already hold your own opinion. May I ask what was your reasoning behind this thread if you are to remain rock solid on your opinion (which you are perfectly entitled too, none the less) and continue to post contradictory comments on the subject of heat dissipation of the respective radiators (both of which perform similarly, both of which have their advantages and disadvantages)?

If you do happen to have any questions concerning the subject matter i.e. Heat dissipation, how flow rate does in fact affect the latter, and also how ambient temperatures and, in general, environmental conditions affect the results swiftech and thermochill may have recorded and subsequently used on the graphs you see presented before you. Do not hesitate to ask questions, I'm sure someone will hold the answer to your question.

[Marci]

I provided the charts from the websites of both parties, and the results have showed the 320 eats the 120.2 for breakfast.

Dont feed me Thermochill's biased charts and the liquid cooling section's obvious love for Thermochills, because I showed you the true unbiased facts.

Get your facts straight before you start throwing such weighty words about please...

1 - The charts for BOTH products were produced by the SAME independant tester, Bill Adams... who undertakes independant testing for a fee. See www.thermal-management-testing.com - The Swiftech data is not represented on that site as the testing on their rads was undertaken whilst he was in employment by Swiftech (he also designed their MCR series rads). Since he was under employment by them, Swiftech own all the data produced so he cannot legally reproduce it on his own site which covers all the work he's done independantly to Swiftech (also note, Bill also worked on the Coolingworks radiator design)...

2 - The data used for those charts was produced by two different test rigs at two different points in time... as the tester who produced the data has stated, these two charts are NOT directly comparable due to differences in the testing rigs. The tester (BillA) retested the MCR220 vs the PA120.2 for scaling of results... see HERE and the quote below.
Long n' short, there are no charts you can use to compare the radiators in question due to testrig differences... and the only testing done of the two against each other in equal scenarios was by Radical_53. Whether this can be determined as conclusive evidence is entirely up to the end-user.

In some scenarios (very low airflow - sub Nexus@12v) the PA120.2 beats the MCR320. In other scenarios (higher airflow - Delta1212 range and upwards) the MCR320 beats the PA120.2 - so, the question can only be answered without any fanboyism influencing the decision by providing us with the following info: What fans is one intending to use on the radiator? and What heatload do you intend to cool?

Two seconds of background: There is no (industry) standard to adhere to, just 2 test rigs both built by me and very similar; likewise the specific procedures were defined by me and when followed yielded fairly consistent results. But as with all ‘good’ testing, equipment is upgraded over time and the better capabilities of such equipment utilized to decrease uncertainty and increase repeatability. I disregard all rad testing I performed before using an environmental chamber, I started such at Swiftech. Apart from the chamber, nowhere are the effects seen more sharply than when changing from manual data acquisition (DAQ) to an automated DAQ system;

*snip*

So here is what can be expected from this round of testing:
- there will be no “good” comparison possible between the HE and PA Series rads data (HE done w/o chamber)
- there will be no “accurate” comparison possible between the testing of 7/06 and 12/06 (or Swiftech data)
- to enable a means of comparison I intend to fully retest an MCR220 QP

*snip*

Regards, Bill Adams
Thermal Management Testing

[Gunlance]

WTF you little ( i am not going to say it), you should get a referral soon

We are looking at the SECOND line of the PA graph and the FIRST line of the MCR graph.

You have the MCR graph right @ 450W @ 2gpm.

NOW look at the SECOND line of the PA graph...350W @ 2gpm

Get it now??

EDIT: Now naturally I presume you wont respond, so I think the embarrassment has set it, no?

SO comparing the two rads at different GPM eh? Sounds intelligent. More like sleep has set in. The PANAFLO High speed cools about 425 watts at 2 gpm. The mcr was done with a DELTA that puts out MORE cfm and it only cools an extra 25 watts. for a grand total of 450watts AT 2.0gm. 2.0 GPM for crying out loud.

[Marci]

By second line he's referring to the orange colored fancurve line, not the X or Y axis lines. ie: the 2nd colored line down on the graph.

His statements based on the presented graphs is correct, however, the HISTORY of those two graphs means the conclusion is incorrect and is overgeneralizing the performance of each rad.

[Gunlance]

By second line he's referring to the orange colored fancurve line, not the X or Y axis lines. ie: the 2nd colored line down on the graph.

His statements based on the presented graphs is correct, however, the HISTORY of those two graphs means the conclusion is incorrect and is overgeneralizing the performance of each rad.

Ah I see now. We were looking at 2 different things. Thanks for clarifying his statements.

Why not jsut say orange line in the first place? I was comparing GPM for the panaflo fan.