Originally Posted by Nyx
im interested in direction of flow on the hxs.
ie cc1 cc2 and coaxial hx
ie evap bottom up with high stage entering top exit bottom.
i cant confirm but it looks like one of the cc's flows high stage entering bottom??
im interested in direction of flow on the hxs.
ie cc1 cc2 and coaxial hx
ie evap bottom up with high stage entering top exit bottom.
i cant confirm but it looks like one of the cc's flows high stage entering bottom??
Last edited by kayl; 04-27-2006 at 04:22 AM.
Ummm, I'm not sure that everyone understands that this unit wasn't built by Cryo-tek (although he can and does build units of his own). This particular unit was built by Polycold and therefore the schematic would be under NDA. Here's a basic diagram of a 3 stage autocascade. If you can't figure it out, then you shouldn't be building an autocascade yourself
i always thought it was called a metering device,
cuz i've never seen a captube expanding
But the schematic looks reasonable, 4 metering devices, 4 evap+suction / liquidline HX, 3 phase seperators
I'm just amazed that it actually works
we need to find out what is happening with the argon, now it just doesn't make sense. The pressure/temperature just isn't the way it should be with argon. When we understand what is going on with the argon, we might be able to build cascades that will hold a load at -140*C or something. wish I had those gasses.
btw cryo-tek, any idea what kind of oil is in the system? Since you got r14 in it succesfully and people here had oil issues between r14 and POE. Could you please answer a few of our questions?
Last edited by Unknown_road; 04-25-2006 at 12:08 AM.
At that evap temp you should be having a pressure of about 45 bar!
Well have all gases except... R123... I just can't bring myself to buy 100lbs of it... anyone in US care to split (with proper license?)? It's pretty cheap per pound but only thing I see is 100lbs and 200lbs drums... bleh.
I do have r22, R23, R116, obviously nitrogen and argon handy... :P Just need to learn exact purposes and what happens to really get to it.
[SIGPIC]http://www.vapoli.com/Images/Forum/vapoli.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Single Stage Work Logs
heatware: jinu117
Argon helps lower the partial pressure of the r14 allowing it to evaporate @ lower temps. However, one of the drawbacks of adding argon is that it will increase discharge pressures. Argon is cheap and readily available - as you probably know already, it's a sheilding gas.......*How was that Cryo-tek? I'm sounding smarter already
EDIT - Forgot to add: The argon itself doesn't condense....
Last edited by s7e9h3n; 04-25-2006 at 12:14 AM.
Evap temp @ -162C = 180psi dischargeAt that evap temp you should be having a pressure of about 45 bar!
Sorry but I don't buy that, partitial pressure doesn't reach anything in the range of -140 with r14. just look at a PT-chart of it.Argon helps lower the partial pressure of the r14 allowing it to evaporate @ lower temps. However, one of the drawbacks of adding argon is that it will increase discharge pressures. Argon is cheap and readily available - as you probably know already, it's a sheilding gas.......*How was that Cryo-tek? I'm sounding smarter already
EDIT - Forgot to add: The argon itself doesn't condense....
Ok...well, I'm just repeating what cryo-tek's told me. What is your theory to what is happening here? It would be interesting to hear
Wow! I hate this smilie, but this is the thread it was put here for
that is just amazingEvap temp @ -162C = 180psi discharge
Lemme think clearly for a moment at 3:36 AM in the morning.... (had a customer unit i had to finish... he was here)
So...
Argon takes volume in chamber... but doesn't condense or evaporates...
it certainly doesn't condense anywhere in loop, and is non condensable.
Obviously high side pressure do go up with this. With the artificially developed high side pressure, we see higher pressure differential than normally would have seen considering we still have same amount of gas without argon. All the evaporating happens same thus as in amount of refrigerant but the differential aids in creating more flow of liquid...or I think it should within reason. But as restriction didn't really change -captubing- we have condition in evap which refrigerant can expand better (well argon doesn't really expand unlike refrigerant obviously around temp we are dealing with)...? better temp is always lower suction pressure after all. so it must also translate the other way in this case... (gotta love how gas laws always goes hand in hand).
I think I am rambling off...
Now care to explain why nitrogen (other than it's boiling and melting point) is not a good candidate for this reason? Or is it...?
[SIGPIC]http://www.vapoli.com/Images/Forum/vapoli.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Single Stage Work Logs
heatware: jinu117
better temp is always lower suction pressure after all.
wrong.
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Do you wanna Play Thermodynamics ????????
Yeah... hmmm
I just thought about it and, realized... what is SUCTION pressure in this case... lol.
after what stage? I think that 20psi is combined suction pressure right before or inside compressor.... so it might be running well into vacuum for evap stage.
[SIGPIC]http://www.vapoli.com/Images/Forum/vapoli.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Single Stage Work Logs
heatware: jinu117
thats a nice diagram, anyone wanna trial and error captube length on such a system??Ummm, I'm not sure that everyone understands that this unit wasn't built by Cryo-tek (although he can and does build units of his own). This particular unit was built by Polycold and therefore the schematic would be under NDA. Here's a basic diagram of a 3 stage autocascade. If you can't figure it out, then you shouldn't be building an autocascade yourself
if this is your first night in xtremesystems,
you have to overclock.
NO! suction pressure is almost the same everywhere as long as you don't have restrictions along the way.
cryo-tek: trow some methane in the system!
Last edited by Unknown_road; 04-25-2006 at 05:49 AM.
How much argon would be required to drive the pressures up to 700 PSI at -120C which argon could turn partly liquid. If the charge is correct i believe that it will not drive the pressure up astronomically and might still help in maintaining the ultra low temps. And there is still an expansion tank, it could help slowly release the extra mix into the system if a captube is used. so this could also be a crucial point.
Last edited by Nyx; 04-25-2006 at 06:11 AM.
you want the system to work at 700psi??
No 123? try 11 or 114
Well ... first of all ... cryo-tek: Your units go LIKE HELL!
I'm a fan of autocascades .... but your's beat everything I knew til now!
REEAALLLLLLY NICE!
Short question:
How long does this nice unit need to come down to ... let's say .... -100°C?
regards
404Power
PS: PLZ check your PMs!)
lol cyro all of us want to know how does the argon work in your system without having sky rocket pressures. pls explain.
Let the guy dont get 1000 pm's in an hour guys like stephen said... this will work not in our favor!
*EDITed by IFMU*
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I need to get some work done but here is a quick bit. These are ROUGH ROUND NUMBERS !! Please don’t beat me up over a small % of error.
Argon works best in the three stage units. (3 seps, 3 CCs)
Two or is this three theories on the argon:
1) Argon lowers the partial pressure of the R-14 in the evaporator allowing it to evaporate at lower temp.
Evap pressure: 25psia (10.3 psig) R-14 Evap temp = -120c.
Add the argon: 50% by pressure.
Evap pressure: 25psia = 12.5 psia R-14 and 12.5 psia argon. Evap temp = -130c. (see your PT chart) More argon = lower temps.
2) Argon dissolves into the liquid R-14 and lowers its evaporating temperature. (i.e. Glycol and water).
3) All of the above.
You guys are keeping me awake at night. CAFFINE !! I need a another Dew
I’m trying to answer questions and work for a living, this was in a PM so I’m posting for all to see.
#1 behavior of r123:
The R-123 condenses easily in the condenser and will dump large amounts of heat. The R-123 also helps with oil management in the #1 Phase Separator and compressor cooling.
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