Xtreme Autocascade competition ??

[berkut]

Hello guys,


I just came up with i idea when talking with runmc.

Why not make a autocascade competition ? I think there is a large potential in theese little beasts but no one is developing them (most of us dont - for example Redwolf is), every one is making full blown cascades. I think many peapole would enjoy the chance of having 10C lower temps with a autocascade than a normal unit.

When peapole race to do something the best many ideas are born and tested, so why not make a competition!

The first few rules im thinking of:

-only comnon I stage refrigerants can be used. R134A/R22/R404A/R507/R290 etc. Or even make it more restricted, to lets say R22, R290, R404A and R507. Or only R290 to make the chances equal.

-the II stage refrigerant must be CO2. Carbon dioxide is a very comnon gas and ANYONE can obtain it. Welding supplies, pet shops, paintball supplies and a lot more.

-only DIY heat exchangers, separators can be used.

-compressors up to 1hp may be used. 2 stage compressing may be used as long as the II stage compressor is <1/8hp. 1/16hp is prefered. So tricks with semi compound cooling cant be used. If someone has acces to a large 10000btu/h rotary will get a compressor from a small frige.

-if a 2 stage compressing unit is used the oil separator must be DIY

-comnon available parts must be used. cap tubes as metering devices are prefered. TXV's and PEV's too but less.

-variable frequency a/c to the compressors is not allowed

How do you guys like the idea ? There would be 2 competitions, who will get the lowest temps unloaded (chances for smaller systems) and loaded with a knows heat load.

I dont know what would be the prize or how we would organize it, but i belive peapole who did this sort of stuff earlyer can help here.


berkut

[runmc]

I think this would be some fun - friendly competiton for us phasechange people.

Plus like you say berkut, we would all learn alot.

My suggestion on a competition would be to keep all rigs simple and DIY. That way everyone would have a chance.

For example - r290 , and CO2 (you can always change after the competition is over) All parts are DIY (home made) HX - oil seperators - receivers - evaporators. Condensers could be store bought. If you choose to use TXV or CPEV, they could be allowed, unless everyone wants to eliminate expansion valves and keep it captube only.

This is an idea we can all join in on. Give your opinions and we can take votes to make the final decisions. Of course we will have to set a deadline on the competition. We can also vote on that.

Good idea berkut

[kayl]

i have alwys wondered why ppl dont make more auto cascades
there is an art to making the phase separators and since there isnt much info on them (like cascades) there is still alot of ground work to be done by ppl.
i know my choice would be r290/co2

ya forgot r12, i think that r1150 shouldn’t be included though, that would be dangerous for ppl to compete against.

[Epsilon]

I really like this idea

The gasses are a good choice. Anyone can get r290 and CO2.

Condensers are allmost impossible to make so those may be store bough. Maybe a size limitation? (say 15"x15"x3").

To bad i haven't finished my first system yet and are inexpirienced, if i were, i would definately join this competition .

[runmc]

I really like this idea

The gasses are a good choice. Anyone can get r290 and CO2.

Condensers are allmost impossible to make so those may be store bough. Maybe a size limitation? (say 15"x15"x3").

To bad i haven't finished my first system yet and are inexpirienced, if i were, i would definately join this competition .

I also have two other projects I have to finish before I can start. I like the size idea for condensers. Maybe you will be able to join in also soon.

I also think we could limit compressor sizes. If we keep them smaller and less expensive, more people could get involved together. Maybe under 1/2 ton??

I have no idea how to build an AutoCascade myself, but I think if we all get together for a simple competition, we will all learn together.

I'm going to us a 1/4 ton and 1/3 ton compressors. They are a couple I have collected and never tried. I'm going to keep my cost down as much as possible. That will make it more fun.

[berkut]

R1150 is very hard to get for some peapole. CO2 is commnon.

Yes i also belive R290 and CO2 is the best combination.

No, i think there shouldnt be any limit on the condenser size. But a ambient temp limit should be. The room the system is working in shouldnt be cooler than 20C ambient.

I think the basic principles should be posted so anyone can make a system like this.

And after we finish our system we should post details on them. Detailed pics or diagrams at least. Thats the idea behind this competition.

compressor and condenser sizes... there is a problem beacause some of us like me cant get condensers easy. compressors too. I have 2 compressors 3/4hp each, if i would try to use smaller compressor i would have to have a large budget to buy new ones.

[runmc]

I have 2 compressors 3/4hp each, if i would try to use smaller compressor i would have to have a large budget to buy new ones.

This is true.. But lets say there is a person who already has two 2 hp compressors and he doesn't want to buy more. Maybe we should not have a limit on compressor sizes for this reason.

We want to keep the cost way down on these cascades.

Perhaps we can have more than one catagory. hummmm

How about two catagories?? small compressors 1/7hp - 1/3hp larger compressors 1/2 hp - whatever

These are only suggestions

[kayl]

i think that 1Hp max.
need to learn here so easy to start with a decent compressor.
maybe ya could work out a point system and rate the hole system, each section of the system, points for brazing etc, size of system, temps, hole system, condenser
smaller more points, make ya own block more points, refrigerants used, the list goes on.

here is a pic done by chilly1 from team:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

[JSU]

sounds like a good idea, I was trying to get myself to change some valves on my auto cascade to tube it. Guess this is my incentive. Btw what kind of heat load are we talking about? Iam thinkg a 80w pelt

[kayl]

that is a good idea to have a standard heat load to compare each system.
i have one of those.

[JSU]

I think we should make a heatload = to the compressor in some way.



I have a 1 1/2hp low temp r404a compressor I bought for a auto cascade but I guess that wouldnt be fair . Iam stuck with my 1/2hp rotary.

[Epsilon]

After reconsideration, i think only the refrigerants should be limited to r290 and CO2. THe other parts should be home made (exept for the oil separator).

Not to many restrictions, this will cause that less people are going to build one !!

No compressor and condenser limitations. The challenge is big enough only to make a working autocascade

[MaZeR]

This is a very exciting idea! Maybe Fugger would be interested in supplying a cool Intel ES keyring or something While I am a complete noob in the field and won't be entering, I would have to agree that standard gasses, R290, and CO2 is the best idea for it to be most successful. I don't think that compressors/condensors are such a big issue because getting good phase seperation and controlling sublimation of CO2 will be the hardest part in the end. An autocascade using CO2 with direct die evaporation would be a mighty feat for anyone to achieve!

Good luck guys!

[Pandrone]

I think R404a/R507/R22/R134a should be allowed aswell, just because R290 is flammable.. Everyone doesn't want to work with it (i'm one of those).

[Unknown_road]

how much time would people have? By the way, for the unexperienced, take some safety precautions to prevent blowing yourself up. If you make a design flaw you could try to condense CO2 in the first stage causing very high pressures and possible rupture.

but I'm in if I have enough time and epsilon gives me my compressor

[Chris_F]

How about R290 or R22 for first stage and CO2 for second?

If people are afraid to work with propane R22 will be an alternative that won't give them an edge.

[berkut]

What do i think:

-there should be no compressor categories. If a 1/2hp compressor is close to a 1hp one... we all know who is the clear winner and who has the better design....

-R404A is a really big advantage over propane. Its not easy to acces for some of us. It even has a advantage over R22. R290 is not dangerous if you know how to use it. I guess anyone who will start in the contest isnt a idiot. And wont blow himself up with propane. So i say R290. And most of the guys do too.

Lets make a pool shall we ? The first topic will be about refrigerants.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=46089

[pythagoras]

Well my 2 pence worth

If the purpose of the competition is to advance knowledge on Autocascades, then the selection of the refrigerants should be open. The trick to an autocascade is the refrigerant mix, thats why they are kept secret and cost a fortune.

Isnt the ideal refrigerant mix the part of an autocascade we need to unpick? The construction of one isnt difficult, just the tuning of the metering devices and refrigerant mix?

Regards

John.

[berkut]

pc ice - nobody said you will win :P

pythagoras - CO2 does not blend with any refrigerant to our knowlege. BUT anyone might do some research on it and if it will work: f$%en jeah. Our road to better cascades and autocascades is open.

IF it blends with anything were home, the rules will be changed a little. Mostly this will find use in cascades rather than autocascades. Autocascades work on a different priciple than a cascade so if it blends nothing will do.

I have a CO2 cascade and i tested R134A, propane and R22, non of theese blend.

[Stinger]

Bercut--> You dont have time for this and you know why

[pythagoras]

I agree, what I disagree with is the restriction to CO2 as the low stage refrigerant. That limits our knowledge of autocascades. The low stage refrigerant should be left open.

Regards

John.

[kayl]

how much time would people have? By the way, for the unexperienced, take some safety precautions to prevent blowing yourself up. If you make a design flaw you could try to condense CO2 in the first stage causing very high pressures and possible rupture.

but I'm in if I have enough time and epsilon gives me my compressor

but, if ya got co2 with the r290 surly it would steal all the o2, no fire, just explosion.
i know that i will be using HPCO so reducing chances of explosion.
these are very good points though made by unknown road.

have two divisions; set a line of rules. max compressor/ gases r290,r22,co2
then open division anything goes

[chilly1]

I was awaiting the r14 now I got it I will build one... R507/R23/R14 But I have ten projects i the pipeline... gotta finish these first.

[pythagoras]

An r290/co2 is a safe mix for an autocascade, its just not the best mix. r290/r23 is better but I would like to find out which is the best.

Regards

John.

[pythagoras]

Okay, upstage me with a three stage autocascade

Regards

John.