Who tried winchester (90nm) with Phase cooling?

[gandalf027]

Well, got the same problems as all of you.

Got myself a G8KNS ULTRA 939 with a 3500+ Winc.

When the temp goes below 0, the hell begins. Freezing bios, canot install/enter/repair any kind of windows. If i turn the prom off and the temp rises above 0 it all goes well.

Now .. is this a cpu problem or a board (nforce) problem? I'm seeing this issue on msi, giga and asus ... all with the nforce chipset.

In the other hand we all have winchesters .. oh boy. I think i'm gona return everything and keep my 3400+ with the dfi.

[LukeK]

y not just change the thermistor on the MB?...in the socket it wouldnt be too hard to solder on a resistor to keep the temp reading at about 50 C higher than it should be ...then just ghetto-clock it up...did that on an old NForce2 board back with my 1700+/machI with a subzero problem

[YoupY]

Well, got the same problems as all of you.

Got myself a G8KNS ULTRA 939 with a 3500+ Winc.

When the temp goes below 0, the hell begins. Freezing bios, canot install/enter/repair any kind of windows. If i turn the prom off and the temp rises above 0 it all goes well.

Now .. is this a cpu problem or a board (nforce) problem? I'm seeing this issue on msi, giga and asus ... all with the nforce chipset.

In the other hand we all have winchesters .. oh boy. I think i'm gona return everything and keep my 3400+ with the dfi.

Asus A8V has the K8T800 Pro chipset so it's definately the winnie

Anyone tried bypassing the thermal diode yet. I don't think it will do any good, since my cpu is booting, but it's completely unstable. Anyway it's worth the try at least.

[Str!P]

Same issue here with Asus A8V Rev 2.0 / 3500+ winnie. Using Vapo LS, Once Evap hits -44c, system starts hanging...coming back, hanging...once evap hits -46c, it's total lock. If i kill the LS after it initially starts buggin' out, but before complete lock (-44c - -46c), I regain perfect stability again once evap drops back down to -43c. If i kill LS after complete lock, it don't recover. This is all with newest beta BIOS 1009.002.

This chip ran great at 2.58 / 1.6v w/SLK948U.

Traded the chip with friend who has a 3500+ Newcastle, and running great @ -52c evap, chip @ 2.8 prime stable..

....it's a shame that I can't see what the winnie will do sub 0, especally after seeing how much better it does on air then the newcastle I traded it for....watta goddamn shame..

[PnoT]

Interesting posts guys!
Thanks for helping us out with this riddle as we thought it was the MSI board at fault. Now that we have a more broader range of people with the issue and all different boards it very well could be an AMD or Nvidia chipset issue. Does anyone know how to bypass/circumvent the thermal probe on these boards so we can test out a theory? I've seen a few people that have no issue with these chips at all i'm wondering what system they're running such as:

board
chipset / date on chipset
any volts to chipset or stock
cpu codes / stepping etc

anything else we could think of while we're at it. Someone fire up a dedicated thread so we can narrow the issue down even more. I'll help out as much as i can because i'm really fed up with this issue

[gandalf027]

Me too .. i'll post the stepping of my cpu later. Gotta run now. Let's hope we can came up with any kind of solution for it.

Cheers!

[YoupY]

Hmm, looks like I'm wrong after all, Charlie mangeged to get 3.2 Ghz somehow in DI, I wonder how exactly

[NiCKE^]

He said he tricked the subzero bug.

[PnoT]

Definately could be a cpu bug for sure esp with different chipsets involved here. I'm kinda disappointed since the new chips overclock so well we're not able to take advantage of them. I know onepagebook and someone else has their winchesters over 3ghz on phase so there must be some kind of common ground on the chips they're using. I'm planning on going to fry's tomorrow and buying 3 3200+'s and testing them all to see if i can find a patern.

[YoupY]

I've read he tricked the subzero bug indeed, but I'm wondering how exactly.

It could be a couple of things :
- The onepagebook bios fixed the problem
- He bypassed the cpu thermal diode somehow
- He booted when the temps were above zero and then cooled the baby down

Arguments against those things :
- The onepagebook modded bios is specificly for the MSI neo2, so why are we experiencing this kind of problems on other boards. The 1009.002 bios for the asus A8V also can help, but I haven't tested that yet...

- If AMD implemented some kind of shut down on subzero temps this could be the fix we need, but I don't get why AMD should do this. Moreover I can get the proc to boot while it's at -30 (cpu temp)

- Tried the third option myself, it was the only way I could manage to get into windows, but the proc was unstable as hell. It couldn't run prime longer then 2 minutes at defauld speed before giving an errormessage.

In my case it could also be the board that isn't great. I've tried 2 cpu's (winnie and non-winnie) but both couldn't get decent memory speeds. I've tested with 3 types of mem (bh5, eb's and tccd's) but that didn't make a difference. However when I tested it on another board (asus a8v rev 1.02) my memory wouldn't go high either.
Since I've tried two procs that both didn't get any decent memory speed stable, I think I can rule out that it is the cpu that is causing me problems.

Also because I tested on two boards and they were giving the same results I don't believe it's the board that is causing me troubles. My Eb's and bh5's were running great on other boards so I doubt that is the problem, but what the hell is bugging me now since I ruled out the proc, board and mem

Judging form the stepping the proc should do great with Phase Change. (wk41 TPBW batch 001 3500+) So I'm kinda pissed off I can not get anything decent out of it

[texuspete00]

Well, got the same problems as all of you.

Got myself a G8KNS ULTRA 939 with a 3500+ Winc.

When the temp goes below 0, the hell begins. Freezing bios, canot install/enter/repair any kind of windows. If i turn the prom off and the temp rises above 0 it all goes well.

Now .. is this a cpu problem or a board (nforce) problem? I'm seeing this issue on msi, giga and asus ... all with the nforce chipset.

In the other hand we all have winchesters .. oh boy. I think i'm gona return everything and keep my 3400+ with the dfi.

Darn.... Just the combo I was gonna ask about.

[YoupY]

I finally got my winnie to run on Phch. Turn out that the beta 1009 fixes the subzero bug, for me at least. Other asus / winnie / prommy users please post your results...

Still cant get a nice 3 ghz pifast though, which my Newcastle didn't have much troubles with. Need to do some more tweaking.

[Ratax]

Well, I'm getting more "happy" now...
My MSI was going RMA next tuesday... I think will hang on a couple of days more...
Can someone that tryed onepagebook's bios on MSI, place here some news about sub-zero "bug"?

[jinu117]

I thought I told you guys I tried 3 diff 939 boards? :P
MSI K8N Neo to with 1.2, 1.3, 1.35, 1.36, 1.37, 1.37 modded.
GA-K8NS Ultra with F2
Asus with 1007
Which all didin't work at time being. I am looking forward to see someone playing with diff bios as well as hearing from Charlie how he circumvented the problem.
(Now, booting while warm was tried many times but when temp becomes low enough, it will freeze again. Thus the instability).
At this point I will sit tight with my newcastle as rev 0.6 seems to overclock just as well as winnies do (well heard winnies is a little faster clock for clock though..) until I hear something definite back from Charlie and you guys

[giorgioprimo]

Just got my Vapochill LS I was planning to buy the neo2-winny 3500 combo...so now I have to change the winny for the old 013? What do you suggest? take the winning waithing for the solution of the bug or, to be sure, take the 013?

Thanks

[jjcom]

it probly won't work with the 90nm...maybe just get a 130nm and go with it. You'll still get a pretty good overclock...but its not the Winchester...o'well. maybe wait a week and see if any of us figures out how to fix this.

[YoupY]

I thought I told you guys I tried 3 diff 939 boards? :P
MSI K8N Neo to with 1.2, 1.3, 1.35, 1.36, 1.37, 1.37 modded.
GA-K8NS Ultra with F2
Asus with 1007
Which all didin't work at time being. I am looking forward to see someone playing with diff bios as well as hearing from Charlie how he circumvented the problem.
(Now, booting while warm was tried many times but when temp becomes low enough, it will freeze again. Thus the instability).
At this point I will sit tight with my newcastle as rev 0.6 seems to overclock just as well as winnies do (well heard winnies is a little faster clock for clock though..) until I hear something definite back from Charlie and you guys

Charlie posted his solution allready in the Xtreme Overclocking forum in the winnie thread

Have a winnie and a 0.6V both 3500+ proc here. The 0.6V is getting me 3 Ghz pifast stable, with the winnie I still haven't got a screenie of 3 Ghz

[gandalf027]

Still no go .. back to the 3400+ and going to return the 3500+ setup until this bug/problem has been fixed.

[jinu117]

I say go with version .6 (130nm) of 3500 for now. Most of us are getting at least benchable to 3ghz on it on phase it seems, in my case, I can get to prime 95 stable 3.05ghz if I am willing to turn up the fan to full speed and up the volt to 1.9v actual reading.. (obviously I tune it down to 2.95ghz with fan running slowest speed and 1.7v actual v-core for daily use)
I don't think winnies are mature enough on memory controller department yet from few reports I've seen, so it might be worth waiting out. Besides, on e-bay it won't matter much if it is winnie or not soon anyway :P

[matt9669]

Jinu -

Read this thread http://forum.vapochill.com/showthread.php?t=8420 and you'll see I'm having the exact same problems with a Winchester 3200+ and CMOS clear etc . . .

I've also read that AMD changed the CPU diode in the Winchester, so I don't see why mobo manufacturers haven't/can't update their BIOS'es to reflect the changes and allow us to use our phase change cooling properly. I'm using an Abit AV8 (I know most here are using the MSI board) but having the same symptoms it seems . . .

Anyways, if anyone has found a workaround/hacked BIOS to fix this PLEASE PM me, I am new to xtremesystems but not to forums and certainly not to hardcore overclocking (since 1996 baby, woohoo! ) - otherwise I may say the hell with it and pick up an FX55! Jeez, it just ain't worth it sometimes!

-- Matt

[jjcom]

I'm not sure if the Winchester likes sub-zero temps, it seems that systems get unstable once they so cold. So i'm wondering if this is less a BIOS issue and something that AMD needs to work on. Maybe with these Revesion E chips?

[jinu117]

I'm not sure if the Winchester likes sub-zero temps, it seems that systems get unstable once they so cold. So i'm wondering if this is less a BIOS issue and something that AMD needs to work on. Maybe with these Revesion E chips?

jjcom. From many members experiences, observation, it is most likely not the winnie not liking sub-zero temp to operate, it just refuses to operate when it think temperature is too hot (clearly displayed if you keep an eye on bios heatlh of cpu... temp will sky rocket up to interesting value when lock up happens). There are few people who ARE running sub zero temperature however, (one being onepagebook), any one in Ohio so he/she can pay him a visit with spare winnie to see if his/her boots up? :P
Anyone know how to fool the cpu/bios on this scenario? :P I am not afraid to solder things on mobo or wrap tiny wire around cpu fins here to see what winnies are capable of.

[jjcom]

i get it, the chip itself thinks its too hot...built in thermal protection?

[PnoT]

Jinu -

I've also read that AMD changed the CPU diode in the Winchester, so I don't see why mobo manufacturers haven't/can't update their BIOS'es to reflect the changes and allow us to use our phase change cooling properly.
-- Matt

Would you post up a link to this article please? Might give us some firepower to throw at MSI to get an updated bios released. I'm still wondering why Onepagebook hasn't responded to any of these questions regarding his new MSI beta bios especially since he's the one that worked with MSI in the first place. I wish we knew someone down at MSI that could help us out atleast.
I still don't think anyone has tried the new bios at all since we've all given up on seal stringing up stuff all the time heh. I went to fry's tonight and got 2 brand new 3500+'s and i'm going to try both of those in my board on phase and see if they boot and if not i'm going to try the new bios and report back to you guys. I should have that done later on tonight.


Edit: On a side note, fry's are now carrying the OCZ DDR Boosters so if anyone is wanting one you can get it there for like $3 more than you pay online and with the failure rate of those lately it might be worth it to take a short drive. Don't get me wrong OCZ rma'd my product in a split second and sent me another unit after i provided them with a tracking number. GREAT customer service from those guys

[matt9669]

Pnot, I'll run through my history and see if I can find where I read that, can't remember off the top of my head (doh!) . . .

My guess is this: it IS a BIOS issue, and it is because the BIOS is reading the diode improperly. Ever tried your average thermisistor? It reads ERR below 0C. Something like this must be happening w/ the Winchester - either the BIOS reads negative temps as positive temps in reverse (i.e. say you have an integer from 0 to 127, where -30 would read as +97, as it would in your average computer language) or otherwise doesn't understand the negative temperatures, and defaults to shutting down to protect the processor. I'm getting tired tonight and want to update my personal website, maybe tomorrow I'll search for info on the winnie therm diode and/or read through AMD's tech docs to see what I can find.

Bottom line: I still think this is a fixable BIOS issue. Remember that most mobo's wouldn't even POST with the Winchester chips w/o a BIOS update. AMD never made an official announcement it was selling 90nm chips - maybe it never officially updated the motherboard manufacturers with the specs . . .