Thermalfins radiators

[zalbard]

That radiator grill looks awesome.
The radiator iself is sexy, too, just waaay too fat. Their thinner models should be interesting.

[subtec]

The core looks like it's only about 80mm wide... sure seems like a waste of space. I wonder if they have a good reason for it...

[zalbard]

Probably manufacturing cost it is...

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Anyone have a diagram or better pics of how this thing is supposed to work? or is that one big secret?

As far as my thermals understanding goes (pretty far as a junior ME student) the problem with radiators is the water surface area to air surface area ratio. That is to say you want more air surface area than water surface area (by a BIG factor) in order to even the difference between the heat transfer coefficient of the air which is low (~ 0.024) to the heat transfer coefficient of the water (~ 0.58)/brass/copper which is pretty high. For a simple balance of the heat transfer coefficients your air surface area would need to be ~24 times that of your water surface area to reach a balance. Obviously a little fudging is going on in the numbers for simplicities sake, but you can see where I am starting to lose it with this rad design....

In laymans terms - we have no problem heating our radiators up, it's cooling them down with such a poor heat conductor that is the problem.

The thing is that as I can see how this radiator design functions, it is trending towards a much more equal ratio of water surface area to air surface area which is not a good thing.... so theres gotta be some trick to it.

[Vapor]

How does it mount to a case? Those white plastic pop nuts (is that what they are?) don't look nearly strong enough to support a loaded radiator (fans + water).

[tool_462]

How does it mount to a case? Those white plastic pop nuts (is that what they are?) don't look nearly strong enough to support a loaded radiator (fans + water).

They look like wall anchors. Assuming they include some for 6-32 screws and M4 screws. Makes sense to me and should mount like a rock

[meanmoe]

Anyone have a diagram or better pics of how this thing is supposed to work? or is that one big secret?

As far as my thermals understanding goes (pretty far as a junior ME student) the problem with radiators is the water surface area to air surface area ratio. That is to say you want more air surface area than water surface area (by a BIG factor) in order to even the difference between the heat transfer coefficient of the air which is low (~ 0.024) to the heat transfer coefficient of the water (~ 0.58)/brass/copper which is pretty high. For a simple balance of the heat transfer coefficients your air surface area would need to be ~24 times that of your water surface area to reach a balance. Obviously a little fudging is going on in the numbers for simplicities sake, but you can see where I am starting to lose it with this rad design....

In laymans terms - we have no problem heating our radiators up, it's cooling them down with such a poor heat conductor that is the problem.

The thing is that as I can see how this radiator design functions, it is trending towards a much more equal ratio of water surface area to air surface area which is not a good thing.... so theres gotta be some trick to it.

Is that ratio of ~24 assume passive only, i.e. convection only? For forced convection, the heat flux is a function of area, velocity, and requires consideration of the boundary layer. That's probably the trick. Cylindrical tubes will have slightly better Reynolds numbers than traditional tubes and the small nozzle action from the shroud will raise the local velocity. So, it's an attempt to win by optimizing for reduced boundary layer + higher velocity. This is just a guess too though.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Is that ratio of ~24 assume passive only, i.e. convection only? For forced convection, the heat flux is a function of area, velocity, and requires consideration of the boundary layer. That's probably the trick. Cylindrical tubes will have slightly better Reynolds numbers than traditional tubes and the small nozzle action from the shroud will raise the local velocity. So, it's an attempt to win by optimizing for reduced boundary layer + higher velocity. This is just a guess too though.

Yes convection only, and yeah thats why I didnt take it any further because it get complicated fast. I was only trying to illustrate the need for a high ratio.

Interesting point about the reduced boundry layer part, it's a possibility but I don't have the time to work the thermals on it right now because I am sitting in thermals class! the nozzle will be beneficial but you will need to make up for it with higher static pressure fans...

[D749]

Damn it. Every time I'm about new WC items sometime new comes out a day prior or after. Guess I'll wait another week or so and see what these can do. Any idea when they'll be available in the US?

[Aedubber]

any update yet on that MONSTER rad ? lol thing is huge

[homefry]

How would one of this compare to an XSPC RX360?

[bundymania]

Statement from Thermalfins:

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community...82-post92.html

[zalbard]

TL;DR version: the current revision does not perform well enough, they have performed a redesign (and made prototypes), the new revision is coming in a few months = delayed release.

[ximius]

TL;DR version: the current revision does not perform well enough, they have performed a redesign (and made prototypes), the new revision is coming in a few months = delayed release.

So expect these to be cooling whatever chip replaces Ivy Bridge.

[skeyo]

Delayed again those rads will never go to production. I would like to see them outperform current rads but all those delays doesn't give me confidence.

[gmat]

Duke Nukem Forever is gold and will be shipping before these radiators are real. This says a lot.

[Waterlogged]

There was a number of ppl that questioned the "potential performance" of this radical design from the start when it supposedly belonged to another company (myself included), looks like they learned the hard expensive way. Now they're going to try again with a hybrid design, hope they're not wasting more money on that.

[eth0s]

I hear there's a new unicorn farm out in Colorado...

There's a new Unicorn Farm in CO? Really? That's awesome, 'cuz I really need a new one. (Wait, is this off-topic?)

Well on-topic: That new Thermalfins rad looks good to me, because it looks you won't be needing to use shrouds on them babies. (which is the purpose of the 80mm core, btw)

Now on to the issue of heat transfer: It seems to me that two things are going on here: (1) the water flows in the opposite direction to the air; and (2) there is a larger mass of copper in this design, than would be used in a "normal" rad fin/ copper tube design (this might also account for the much higher price, as there is a lot more copper, and copper is more expensive than ever.) IMO, this rad design is intended to be a counter-flow design heat exchanger, instead of the traditional cross-flow that exists in every other rad. Now I don't really know if that will make it a better performing rad or not, but the designers obviously think it will. The increased mass of copper used in this design is interesting as well, for a greater mass of copper would allow greater heat dissipation. When a copper radiator is exposed to forced convection, the amount of heat dissipated is proportional to the temperature differential between the copper and the air (obviously), AND it is also proportional to the mass of the copper used in the rad (not the surface area). (That is Newton's Law of Cooling for a body exposed to a draft, or as best as I can remember it, one of you college boys can go look it up.)

[Martinm210]

That's too bad..... but cheers to testing to sort out the right air contact area balance and hope for the best in a future revision.

[subtec]

Well on-topic: That new Thermalfins rad looks good to me, because it looks you won't be needing to use shrouds on them babies. (which is the purpose of the 80mm core, btw)

Not sure I follow this... the purpose of a shroud is to allow the airflow to spread out a bit between the fan and the fins, to lessen the deadspots at the hub and corners... I fail to see how making the core narrower helps anything, other than possibly increasing airspeed through the Venturi effect.

Now on to the issue of heat transfer: It seems to me that two things are going on here: (1) the water flows in the opposite direction to the air;

What do you mean here? It looks like the water flows perpendicular to the airflow, just as in a normal rad.

and (2) there is a larger mass of copper in this design, than would be used in a "normal" rad fin/ copper tube design (this might also account for the much higher price, as there is a lot more copper, and copper is more expensive than ever.) IMO, this rad design is intended to be a counter-flow design heat exchanger, instead of the traditional cross-flow that exists in every other rad. Now I don't really know if that will make it a better performing rad or not, but the designers obviously think it will. The increased mass of copper used in this design is interesting as well, for a greater mass of copper would allow greater heat dissipation. When a copper radiator is exposed to forced convection, the amount of heat dissipated is proportional to the temperature differential between the copper and the air (obviously), AND it is also proportional to the mass of the copper used in the rad (not the surface area). (That is Newton's Law of Cooling for a body exposed to a draft, or as best as I can remember it, one of you college boys can go look it up.)

I was under the impression that you want as little mass between the air and water as possible, and as much surface area. If mass were what really counted, we'd be using solid blocks of copper as a radiators... which obviously isn't going to work.

[bundymania]

Some pics from the new versions

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

well whadya know, a higher air-water surface area ratio....

[LeandroJVarini]

Some pics from the new versions

Someone tell me what store that makes international shipping this radiator?

[phantomferrari]

that thing is thicker than a power supply!

[clubber_lang]

Bundy.....do you have any of these "in hand"? If so.....I would think you will probably test the crap out them shortly. Those are great looking rads. Sure would like to see how they perform compared to all these other brands.