New Maya Workstation Build - Many Questions! Magny-Cours or Westmere?

[Mats]

Just one counter argument, some rumours claim top Interlagos chip will set you back about US$ 1100 only, this would be great news I think.

There is also another point that if he wants a serious workstation where reliability is important, then its another point in favor of the server parts.

That's a bit surprising given the Magny Cours prices.

I wonder what the difference between desktop and workstation/server is in reality, besides RAM type. And I'm not talking about just any desktop board, I mean desktop vs workstation from say SM.
I think desktop CPU is an alternative because of his budget, and the need for high clocks.
The fastest 6C Opteron is 2.8 GHz, only 300 MHz over the fastest 12C, if that's of any indication of the 8C Interlagos clocks, and he can't afford fast Xeons, at least not two . .

[EniGmA1987]

Interlagos models:

interlagos.jpg

[LUCI5R]

Interlagos I think has a 16 core 2.3 GHz model, that clocks to 2.7 or 2.8GHz with turbo on. You have to remember when comparing Magny Cours to the newer Intel's that the AMD that is being compared is much older. The new Interlagos shipping very soon is a new architecture that is supposed to be better, is a bit faster, and has more cores. I really think for CGI rendering that an Interlagos system is the way to go. 8 additional threads will help you more than 500MHz extra speed per core.

I have to agree with EniGma on a few points; Interlagos is a brand new architecture - and so to speak - more capable of competing in whatever way possible with Intel's new architecture. Magny's might be cheaper, but they are indeed of an older architecture. If I have to build a system now - I don't think I would compromise new architecture over pricing. In other words, I would not select Magny's over Interlagos.

That said - the 6276 2.3Ghz (2.8Ghz turbo) top of the line Interlagos is rumored to be @ $1,100. That was my initial budget for 2 Westmere's (@ $580 each). What I could easily do - if I do truly decide to build an Interlagos based workstation as opposed to SB-E/Xeon, is get one single 6276 Interlagos for now; install it in a dual socket G34, and then later down the road get another one to make it a dual-cpu 32-core system. That's a possibility.

Interlagos models:

interlagos.jpg

Thanks!! I was looking for something like this.

and he can't afford fast Xeons, at least not two . .

Well, that is accurate to some extent; I can afford two 6-Core Westemere-EP Xeon's @ $549 each ... that was my original build. What I won't be able to afford are the upcoming 8 or 10 Core Xeon's. Over on the SB-E side, however, I can consider one or two 3930K SB-E's ($583) which clock at 3.3Ghz (3.8Ghz turbo) ... which will easily run over 4Ghz after OC'ing. The dual socket mobo hasn't been announced yet but strongly in the cards. Granted, like the SR2, it would be extremely expensive and I might have to consider a single 3930K rather then dual to begin with.

[endlesszeal]

a good place to ask about server stuff is the WGC thread, most if not all the guys have a 2P of some sort and some have 4P systems.

as for running 1P in a 2P, it is board dependent, so I would call/check manual. On my two systems, socket 940 and socket f, both allows me to run 1P, but the RAM has to be in the right slots or it will think there is 2P and no boot.

i dont know if its a good thing or bad, but the two 2P boards I have are ASUS brand that still work, albeit frustrating to work with. i say good because they are several years old, but still chugging. however, on both the boards, the chipsets get freaking hot, so i had to strap on some 80mm fans directly above them to keep the temps in check. also the onboard devices have issues, specifically the USB and Audio, that would cause no boots, crashes or restarts.

i eventually got both systems running, but if tyan or supermicro are easier to work with and less moody, i'd paid the extra in a heartbeat.

lastly, the things i overlooked were the cost of heatsinks and E-ATX case. heatsinks were 2x (obviously more if u have more than 2P), which got expensive quick and cases that can house an E-ATX are enormous. ive mostly worked with mid, micro and slim towers and a few full towers, but my CM Stacker 2 eclipses anything ive worked with in size and weight.

[Dimitriman]

double post

[Dimitriman]

snip

I went through all of those experiences except the problems with the motherboard, I built a Woodcrest based 2P system in 2008 on a Tyan board and it is still running rock solid today on my friend's house. Also need to note the importance of packing a solid power supply as well, prioritizing stability and protection over big wattage, pick the top brand and model with the least reviewed amount of voltage fluctuations. I haven't built a system in a while so I can't give many tips right now but just don't overlook this part as well

[LUCI5R]

This is what is going to make things very interesting ...

The AMD based system I'm thinking about entails the 6276 "Interlagos" which will retail for roughly $1,100 giving me 16 cores @ 2.3Ghz (2.8Ghz Turbo); this will go in a dual socket G34 (Tyan, Supermicro or Asus). At some point down the road, I can add another 6276, but for starters I will only be able to afford one.

The Intel based system running in competition entails Two i7-3930K "Sandy Bridge-E" CPU's expected to retail at $560 each, bringing my CPU total to $1,120, about the same cost of a single 6276 Interlagos - but giving me total 12 Cores (2 * 6 Cores / 12 Threads) each @ 2.3Ghz stock (3.8Ghz Turbo) with an unlocked multiplier that would easily fly at 4.0Ghz or more. EVGA is expected to bring out an SR2 reboot which will support dual socket LGA2011 for the new SB-E's. The motherboard will run a bit high - $500.

In other words, for the same price, I can either go for a single Interlagos with 16 cores at considerably lower core speeds and no HT or dual sandy bridge e's giving me 12 cores at considerably higher core speeds & HT.

I could jib on the GPU to contain the dual socket sb-e motherboard cost; bringing the total cost of the 2 systems to about the same. This is where my personal war begins - I have no idea which of these 2 systems will perform better. Most people I've talked to say Intel ... but with no having either of the chips on hand for benches ... I don't know!

[EniGmA1987]

It really depends on the availability of the EVGA SR2 board. If it comes out, thats probably the way to go.

[LUCI5R]

It really depends on the availability of the EVGA SR2 board. If it comes out, thats probably the way to go.

Well it's going to come out sooner or later ... And the thing of it is, if "that's the way to go", and you're not the only one who's voiced that - then waiting a month or two for the dual socket SR2 2011 is almost certainly what I'll need to do. For me, time is not more pertinent then the build. I can afford to wait a month or two to get better assets for my Money.

Almost everyone I've talked to has suggested dual SB-E over single or dual Interlagos.

[MattiasNYC]

In other words, for the same price, I can either go for a single Interlagos with 16 cores at considerably lower core speeds and no HT or dual sandy bridge e's giving me 12 cores at considerably higher core speeds & HT.

I could jib on the GPU to contain the dual socket sb-e motherboard cost; bringing the total cost of the 2 systems to about the same. This is where my personal war begins - I have no idea which of these 2 systems will perform better. Most people I've talked to say Intel ... but with no having either of the chips on hand for benches ... I don't know!

Just to offer a thought on the above - and as a disclaimer I'll just point out that it's not a technical one really, and that my experienc with 2p systems is limited:

The comparison above seems intuitive and interesting, but I suggest you think more about future proofing as well, especially since you already touched upon it. If you get a dual SB with 12 cores, that obviously fills up all your sockets. If you get the single interlagos you can expand your system by simply getting another CPU. The difference is likely to not be insignificant.

So with that in mind if I was you I'd think about what my intended use was, and set a realistic time frame. Suppose you make money off of this system, will you benefit more by getting the SB system now, or getting the AMD and then taking some of your income from the system and upgrading it with another CPU later?

Will you end up with a lower price/performance down the road with the Interlagos? Will that generate a higher future income?

Or could you invest some of that in something else that makes your work easier (new monitor, input devices etc)?

I'm not sure how the above comes out, but I think you should think about it seriously.

[Movieman]

Reading through some of the posts above I think some points need to be clarified:
I'd heard the same rumors about EVGA bringing out a version2 of the SR2 board for SB-e's but think on it a minute.
The 6 and 8 core chips for the dualies aren't K (unlocked multi) like the 2500K and 2600K current chips so since the buss speed is essentially VERY limited how in God's name are these server chips to be OC'd?
Unless I'm missing something here I just don't see how anyone can OC a dual socket 2011 board.
I'll add that I think this also holds true for the AMD dual socket systems.
I've tried every trick I can think of with my dualie Magnycours system and "It just ain't there"..

[LUCI5R]

Just to offer a thought on the above - and as a disclaimer I'll just point out that it's not a technical one really, and that my experienc with 2p systems is limited:

The comparison above seems intuitive and interesting, but I suggest you think more about future proofing as well, especially since you already touched upon it. If you get a dual SB with 12 cores, that obviously fills up all your sockets. If you get the single interlagos you can expand your system by simply getting another CPU. The difference is likely to not be insignificant.

So with that in mind if I was you I'd think about what my intended use was, and set a realistic time frame. Suppose you make money off of this system, will you benefit more by getting the SB system now, or getting the AMD and then taking some of your income from the system and upgrading it with another CPU later?

Will you end up with a lower price/performance down the road with the Interlagos? Will that generate a higher future income?

Or could you invest some of that in something else that makes your work easier (new monitor, input devices etc)?

I'm not sure how the above comes out, but I think you should think about it seriously.

Some very realistic & noteworthy thoughts; I appreciate it.
Future-proofing has been a critical component; and I've had my mind on it since the get-go, which is why I abandoned LGA1155 as quickly as I considered it, with LGA2011 on the horizon.

The price/performance & investing in the system from any income generated from the system are very valid points & are definitely high up there in my decision; that said, I'm very curious about your comment of "The difference is likely to not be insignificant". Thus far I have two options ...

a) A single 16-Core "Interlagos" 6276 based system on a G34 Dual Socket board
b) A dual 6-Core "Sandy Bridge-E" i7-3930K based system on the (rumored) EVGA SR2 reboot

System (a) gives me a LOT more cores, AND the ability to ADD a 2nd Interlagos at some stage, doubling my cores to 32.
System (b) gives me TREMENDOUSLY higher core speeds & HT at the expense of fewer cores & no possibility of ADDING CPU.

Right at the start, from whatever I have gathered, system (b) would perform better, faster, stronger then system (a) ... however ... once Interlagos is doubled; I'm not sure! And I would love is someone can chime in their thoughts! If 2 X Interlagos, giving me a total of 32 "slower" cores will do better at rendering then 2 X SB-E's giving me 12 "faster" cores ... then maybe system (a) is the way for me to go!!

The reality is, I don't know. Although I everyone I've talked to still insists Intel is the way to go - no one still has Interlagos in their hands, nor SB-E's.

Reading through some of the posts above I think some points need to be clarified:
I'd heard the same rumors about EVGA bringing out a version2 of the SR2 board for SB-e's but think on it a minute.
The 6 and 8 core chips for the dualies aren't K (unlocked multi) like the 2500K and 2600K current chips so since the buss speed is essentially VERY limited how in God's name are these server chips to be OC'd?
Unless I'm missing something here I just don't see how anyone can OC a dual socket 2011 board.
I'll add that I think this also holds true for the AMD dual socket systems.
I've tried every trick I can think of with my dualie Magnycours system and "It just ain't there"..

Movieman ... 2 thoughts ...
One, you're correct - i don't think the "Server" chips can be OC'd. But the thing of it is - even "without" OC'ing, it's still looking like SB-E is giving me tremendously faster cores then AMD.
Two, the SB-E build I'm looking at is a "Desktop" build rather then a "Server" build with i7-3930K rather a Xeon chip. The 3930k @ 3.2 stock & 3.8 turbo with 6 cores each, at about $560 per chip, gives me a total of 12 Cores running at 3.2 (3.8) for about $1120 ... the same cost as a single high-end Interlagos. And this 3930K is, if I'm not mistaken, unlocked! Which means it can be OC'd (Depending on SR2 reboot supporting it's OC'ing).

Lots of if's & but's.

Thanks!!

[Movieman]

"Movieman ... 2 thoughts ...
One, you're correct - i don't think the "Server" chips can be OC'd. But the thing of it is - even "without" OC'ing, it's still looking like SB-E is giving me tremendously faster cores then AMD.
Two, the SB-E build I'm looking at is a "Desktop" build rather then a "Server" build with i7-3930K rather a Xeon chip. The 3930k @ 3.2 stock & 3.8 turbo with 6 cores each, at about $560 per chip, gives me a total of 12 Cores running at 3.2 (3.8) for about $1120 ... the same cost as a single high-end Interlagos. And this 3930K is, if I'm not mistaken, unlocked! Which means it can be OC'd (Depending on SR2 reboot supporting it's OC'ing).

Lots of if's & but's.

Thanks!!"
I'm a bit confused by what you've written.
The 3930K is a 6 core with HT so 12 threads.
It is also designed to be used in a single socket 2011 board and the question is will it work in a dual socket board?
I'm guessing it wont but would be VERY happy if it did.
Also for the sake of clarification can we assume by desktop you mean single socket and by server you mean dual socket?

[LUCI5R]

"Movieman ... 2 thoughts ...
One, you're correct - i don't think the "Server" chips can be OC'd. But the thing of it is - even "without" OC'ing, it's still looking like SB-E is giving me tremendously faster cores then AMD.
Two, the SB-E build I'm looking at is a "Desktop" build rather then a "Server" build with i7-3930K rather a Xeon chip. The 3930k @ 3.2 stock & 3.8 turbo with 6 cores each, at about $560 per chip, gives me a total of 12 Cores running at 3.2 (3.8) for about $1120 ... the same cost as a single high-end Interlagos. And this 3930K is, if I'm not mistaken, unlocked! Which means it can be OC'd (Depending on SR2 reboot supporting it's OC'ing).

Lots of if's & but's.

Thanks!!"
I'm a bit confused by what you've written.
The 3930K is a 6 core with HT so 12 threads.
It is also designed to be used in a single socket 2011 board and the question is will it work in a dual socket board?
I'm guessing it wont but would be VERY happy if it did.
Also for the sake of clarification can we assume by desktop you mean single socket and by server you mean dual socket?

Aha!! My mistake - You're 100% Correct!! I'm pitting the wrong system against the Interlagos. THANKS for catching that one. I need to b looking at Dual Socket compatible Sandy Bridge XEON's to pit against the Dual Socket compatible Interlagos OPTERONS.

This is my bad - and I'm glad you pointed it out!!

[Mats]

Exactly, I don't think we'll see the desktop SBE's running in pairs like Xeons.

I don't think the old i7 920-980's did that with the SR2..

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=152372

[EniGmA1987]

Thats a good point I didnt think of Movieman, the 3930k may or may not have multiple QPI links. Meaning if it does not then you probably will not be able to use it in a dual socket board. Even still, the Xeon E5 1650 is the same thing but for the server. It has the exact same speeds, threads, and price. Only difference is it does not have unlocked multiplier. This however leads me to believe that the Xeon CPU is literally the exact same processor as the 3930k which would then mean that they both contain the multiple links required to run dual socket.


LUCI5R, I really do think that for rendering the dual Interlagos will run faster than dual SB-E, since ti has an additional 8 processing threads. The difference is offset by core speed which will bring the dual SB-E system up pretty close, but higher core counts always matter more. The issue is you can only afford a single Interlagos at this time. So until you could get the second one, the SB-E would do a lot better. IMO overall price/performance the SB-E system will be better because you can already have the full speed right away and the CPUs cost half as much as the dual Interlagos. Now I love AMD and have had way better luck with their systems and would really like to see someone get a dual Interlagos because it just seems so beastly, however I still think that for your situation with your price constraints and use that the dual SB-E system will work better for you overall.

It will have upgrade potential as well, because while both sockets are already filled, there will be faster processors with more cores later on. You can always replace both CPUs with a new model to do an upgrade. And then sell the old CPUs to recoup a small bit of the cost of the upgrade.

[Movieman]

Think on this, a i7-920 and a E5520 are the same exact cpu with the exception of the E5520 having a working 2nd QPI while the 920's second QPI is disabled in production.
Point is they don't run 2 separate lines for the same product, just enable/disable internals.
It's all business my friends, and making a product to fit a price point and has very little to do with cost of making the product.

[memmem]

[QUOTE=LUCI5R;4959370].

a) A single 16-Core "Interlagos" 6276 based system on a G34 Dual Socket board
b) A dual 6-Core "Sandy Bridge-E" i7-3930K based system on the (rumored) EVGA SR2 reboot

System (a) gives me a LOT more cores, AND the ability to ADD a 2nd Interlagos at some stage, doubling my cores to 32.
System (b) gives me TREMENDOUSLY higher core speeds & HT at the expense of fewer cores & no possibility of ADDING CPU.


Hi LUCI5R,

Well, i don´t have a deep knowledge on server chips but here we go:

* since you are worried about the number of cores (or threads), i wouldn´t bother about turbo speeds because turbo won´t be kicking in for long periods (or at all, or at the maximum turbo available) on this situation.

* you can´t count HT as a core. It gives you 30% of a core performance (best case).

I think you better wait for some Interlagos benchmarks and take a look if Maya will be recompiled for XOP and FMA4.

Waiting someone to correct me.

Sorry for the bad english.

Edit: Interlagos ain´t a "true" 16 cores either. This core/thread thing got really nebolous these days.

I think you really have to look at: price, performance (and benchmarks), power consumption and upgradability.

Easy. No?

[LUCI5R]

Some very, very valid points from both Movieman & Enigma1987 ... and an extremely good catch by Movieman on my errors! I was indeed comparing the wrong systems.

The Interlagos idea still stands; however, I need to be looking at the upcoming XEON E5-2600 line of CPU's to stack a Xeon build against the Interlagos build. Unfortunately I have no clue when these E5-2600's are due out and what pricing i'll be looking at - that could be a major deciding factor. However, just as I was looking at a single Interlagos Opetron 6267 in a dual socket G34, I could be looking at a single Sandy Bridge-E Xeon E5-2600 chip in a dual socket LGA2011. I'm not sure if you "can" actually install & use a single CPU in a dual-socket motherboard, I'm assuming you can (Please correct me if I'm wrong).

But there ... that's my two main builds that I need to price out & compare ... and unfortunately none of them are available for any kind of benches & testing so I have to inevitably wait.

I also stand corrected, both Turbo Speeds & Overclocking are irrelevant for my Workstation Build using Server chips & motherboards; I have to look at cores, core speeds & threads above all.

LUCI5R, I really do think that for rendering the dual Interlagos will run faster than dual SB-E, since ti has an additional 8 processing threads. The difference is offset by core speed which will bring the dual SB-E system up pretty close, but higher core counts always matter more. The issue is you can only afford a single Interlagos at this time. So until you could get the second one, the SB-E would do a lot better. IMO overall price/performance the SB-E system will be better because you can already have the full speed right away and the CPUs cost half as much as the dual Interlagos. Now I love AMD and have had way better luck with their systems and would really like to see someone get a dual Interlagos because it just seems so beastly, however I still think that for your situation with your price constraints and use that the dual SB-E system will work better for you overall.

It will have upgrade potential as well, because while both sockets are already filled, there will be faster processors with more cores later on. You can always replace both CPUs with a new model to do an upgrade. And then sell the old CPUs to recoup a small bit of the cost of the upgrade.

These few things you mentioned have been my aspects of looking closer at (and at this point waiting for) SB-E Xeon chips to see what I can get in my budget; since no one has any pricing indication. We can go by past examples but at the end of day, I'll need actual pricing structure.

I must mention that I was talking to someone over at Maxwell Render and those people are very strongly of the opinion that "more" cores matter more then "faster" cores and thus are geared towards AMD. Some other folks over at some Maya forums commented that as well. But a lot of people I speak to about rendering speeds & rendering efficiency all point towards Intel. There is unfortunately a slight bit of misinformation & confusion over the difference between "Rendering" and "Developing" in software like Maya. The development aspect of it is not what I'm after; a lot of good chips can do well in that area and you primarily need powerful GPU for the viewports, et al. However, Rendering is a different ball game ... 100% mathematical computational power relying solely on CPU (Unless you use a GPU-Powered renderer like Furryball or Arion - which I don't!).

Hopefully news & information regarding the Xeon E5-2600's will trickle out soon.

Snip: Considering the way it has evolved; I wish I could rename this thread to "Interlagos or SB-E" as it has left nothing to do with Magny-Cours & Westmere!!

[Smartidiot89]

Reading through some of the posts above I think some points need to be clarified:
I'd heard the same rumors about EVGA bringing out a version2 of the SR2 board for SB-e's but think on it a minute.
The 6 and 8 core chips for the dualies aren't K (unlocked multi) like the 2500K and 2600K current chips so since the buss speed is essentially VERY limited how in God's name are these server chips to be OC'd?
Unless I'm missing something here I just don't see how anyone can OC a dual socket 2011 board.
I'll add that I think this also holds true for the AMD dual socket systems.
I've tried every trick I can think of with my dualie Magnycours system and "It just ain't there"..

Hey Movieman I found this the other day: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpu...ndy-bridge-e/1

Even locked chips should be overclockable, so a "version.2" SR2 board with SB-E should be possible with overclocking features even if the CPU's are locked.

According to this EVGA will have a dual-socket board ready a few months after the X79 release, although thing could've changed since June http://techreport.com/discussions.x/21061

[EniGmA1987]

* you can´t count HT as a core. It gives you 30% of a core performance (best case).
Edit: Interlagos ain´t a "true" 16 cores either. This core/thread thing got really nebolous these days

Your right here. Sandy Bridge uses what Intel calls Hyper-threading, it is a form of SMT. AMD also introduces SMT in Interlagos, so neither company has a true 12 core or true 16 core or any of that. But at the same time, it doesnt exactly boil down to a 6-core vs an 8-core, because you cant REALLY call Interlagos an 8 core processor with "HT" as that is not the case. Interlagos may not be a true full 16 core architecture, but it is difficult to explain what it is really. Interlagos just uses a much more advanced form of SMT. With each module having two "cores", but the cluster multi-threading that AMD uses gets 80% of a second cores full performance (best case). So it is really hard to compare the processors and say things about them, especially since neither are even out yet. The easiest way is just to say 12 processing threads vs 16 processing threads (per CPU). To go into depth about the differences of each and how they are designed, and try to explain what a core is and how the processing threads work is just too difficult and technical for the discussion at hand.

[duploxxx]

I would like to add some additional fuel to this conversation

first of all the specs provided by Enigma for interlagos are not correct, Interlagos has 2 turbo levels, the list only provides one.
Secondly, Interlagos listed here are the 115W ACP versions, this ain't top of the bill SE parts, there are also 8-12 core with much higher clock speed btw and lower price. While the SNB-E models you provide are 130W TDP
Last but then related on the SNB-E platform, while Interlagos isn't here yet, will have to wait a while for official announcements, neither is SNB-E in fact you will need to wait at least till 2012 (really wondering why we didn't see any post yet on the delay rumor in the news section, but then again VAPOR kicked me out so I can't post it there) so if you want to go for the EVGA board knowing about validation it will probably take even longer and looking at march - april timeframe..

[Dimitriman]

From the main thread:



http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2011/2...s_sighted.html

[LUCI5R]

From the main thread:



http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2011/2...s_sighted.html

.WOW. Those clock speeds are quite a bit higher then what I expected. This is Very interesting. I'm curious about the pricing.

How does this 2-Level / 3-Level Turbo Frequency work?? How is it different from the current Intel Turbo?

Thanks!!

[Movieman]

.WOW. Those clock speeds are quite a bit higher then what I expected. This is Very interesting. I'm curious about the pricing.

How does this 2-Level / 3-Level Turbo Frequency work?? How is it different from the current Intel Turbo?

Thanks!!

2nd level is all cores, 3rd level is with 1/2 the cores..
Also some in that list that I wasn't aware of..HMMM