ARGGGG!!! They were evacuated again http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapc...ex.html?hpt=C1
Why is it that they can't work on controls from somewhere else. Obviously safety hacking issues makes sense but its one of those times where it would be good to have access to the control room from somewhere else. Maybe they do I dunno just a lot is confusing.
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Shhh don't tell him, he probably will run screaming around the house when he checks his local radiation levels...Originally Posted by Jamesrt2004
it's cause the rain, most water tanks are filled by water source from mountain ( don't forget it's an isle ), infiltration through the floor make the work .the real questions is... how did it get there?
and if its that high in the water, after being mixed with god knows how many hundreds of tons of water... how high is the concentration at the surface in some areas of tokyo city?
cause thats where all this iodine must have been at some point...
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Update
The legal limit for infants is 100 bq/l. For adults and other children, the legal limit is 300 bq/l here in Japan, but Japan’s standards for iodine-131 in drinking water are much stricter than those of the European Atomic Energy Community and International Atomic Energy Agency. Euroatom recommends a limit of 500 Bq/kg for adults, while the IAEA recommends 3000 Bq/kg.
Does anybody in Japan have received already their thermoluminescent dosimeter? and if so, which is the minimum mSv reported for the lithium fluoride activation on these badge? rumor goes for 350 mSv is this true?
Last edited by xXlAinXx; 03-23-2011 at 05:17 AM.
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@dctokyo
Is it true that there's a metallic taste in the air?
Maybe...you haven't noticed it..., how many people have mentioned that?
Just curious.
Also, just a status update on one of the prefectures...
In Chiba, current reading is 0.29uSv's per hr.
69.6uSv's per day
487.2uSv's per week
1.9488 mSv per month
23.3856 mSv per year.
Those are still ok'ish levels supposedly, it would take 100years to get sick or die from it.
But any extra rad's aren't good though...
In vegas the other day about 160 cpm, or 0.5usv per hr.
I mention vegas because a meter is there, an it should be in theory the largest amount in the usa since they dump LOTS of waste in the military zones.
I only use it as a point of ref...
Around here in mi, but next to a nuke plant, last time I checked, about 22cpm, or 0.0667 usv.
Just to give an idea what the norm should be...
Last edited by NEOAethyr; 03-23-2011 at 12:07 PM.
I have not noticed anything, also has been raining here for the last 3 days
Rain may have put iodine in Tokyo waterthe real questions is... how did it get there?
and if its that high in the water, after being mixed with god knows how many hundreds of tons of water... how high is the concentration at the surface in some areas of tokyo city?
cause thats where all this iodine must have been at some point...
Professor Yasuyuki Muramatsu of Gakushuin University says the high level of radioactive material in Tokyo's tap water was likely caused when air mixed with Tuesday's rain, raising the iodine level in the water before it reached the purifying plant.
Muramatsu says drinking tap water over a short period poses no health risk even for infants. He added there's no problem using tap water for non-consumption purposes, such as bathing and laundry.
Muramatsu urges continued monitoring to see if the high levels of radiation are sustained and whether the contamination spreads over a wider area.
Wednesday, March 23, 2011 17:22 +0900 (JST)
5,1 bar... thats nothing.
yeah, but that means all the iodine and caesium now in the water was at some point flowing through the air in tokyo... right?
so how come radiation in tokyo has supposedly been normal this whole time?
and it was washed out of the air by rain, but how did it get into the air in and around tokyo? and how come from all places around fukushima, the values are the highest in tokyo, which is pretty far off and the wind has mostly been blowing in other directions?
it just continues to go like this...
no release of major radiation
then there IS a release of radiation
the wind is blowing to the sea
then radioactivity IS carried in-land
radiation levels are fine
then tab water IS affected
the japanese government keeps failing and falling flat on its face in regards to public announcements... all the runs on water and food show that the japanese government has 0 credibility in the eyes of the japanese people, doesnt it?
limits are conservative, yes, but there is a reason why they are there...
you cant tell people to ignore the limit... if the limit can be ignored, then why does it exist to begin with? and its easy to tell people the limit can be ignored, giving your own newborn tab water that MOST LIKELY isnt hurting it is a lot harder... and honestly, would anybody here give their kids tab water after this? i wouldnt... im not even sure if id drink it myself...
id like to see some government and tepco people give babies of their own families tab water... come on... we all know they are using bottled water as well
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/24_41.html
2 workers of the plant hospitalized with skin burns after working close to reactor3
i dont get how radioactive water splashed on their legs... i thought these guys wear protective gear? 0_o
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/24_30.html
tab water in other cities affected as well
Last edited by saaya; 03-24-2011 at 08:28 AM.
vegetables and milk exceeding limits detected over 200km away from fukushima
most spread is iodine
iodine evaporates at high temperatures even without a fire present or water vapor carrying it away.
most radioactive idodine is found on the outsides of vegetables, it doesnt enter the plants through the roots, it enters through the surface.
so its not that radiation and iodine etc concentrations are higher in vegetables than anywhere else because the plants collect isotopes from the ground water and concentrate it! this means there is just as much radioactive iodine in the dirt covering your car, your houses roof, your street, your lawn, as there is covering vegetables in those affected areas.
if iodine spread over 200km around fukushima and slowly decended on the ground covering vegetables, it means its pretty much covering everything... its in the dust... not saying its harmful... but it has spread a lot...
if i had a child i would keep it inside and not hang my clothes outside to dry for the next week or two until this is over...
better safe than sorry...
on the good side, it has rained a lot which should have washed a lot of the isotopes into the ground reducing concentrations.
and outside temperature measurements of the reactors shows that the highest temperatures visible from the outside in all 4 reactors is around 15C now. the highest temperature is the spent fuel pool of reactor4 with 35C, which was in 60s yesterday.
not sure how much this means though, as there is still vapor coming from the reactors so.... somewhere inside its clearly still above 100C
i think the worst is over by now... concentrations of isotopes seem to drop, and unless something goes very wrong, i dont think there will be a big release of more radioactive material from fukushima.
Last edited by saaya; 03-24-2011 at 08:56 AM.
I have no idea where this originally came from.
I'm only posting it since it mentions the possible reason why and when tokyo's tap water was radiated...
I heard another rumor that japan isn't letting anyone help with the nuke prob, only the tsunami prob are where foreigner's allowed to help.
It's just something heard...
I honestly think they screwed up the graphs by accident or whatever the reason..., instead of saying it's in mSv's, they say it's uSv's...
That's what it seems like...
I'm just saying, I've checked out a handful of meter readings and they are all well above what the public data says...
Because of the nuke prob, I personally believe that alot of potential effort was wasted.
The people stuck in the wreckage of the tsunami..., and the cities/town's that were wiped out...
Anyways here's the article I mentioned, again i have no idea where it came from, tried to figure that out on google but came up with alot of bs.
Edit;"You get 3,500,000 the normal dose. You call that safe?"
Hirose Takashi: The Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant Accident and the State of the Media
Broadcast by Asahi NewStar, 17 March, 20:00
Interviewers: Yo and Maeda Mari
Yo: Today many people saw water being sprayed on the reactors from the air and from the ground, but is this effective?
Hirose: . . . If you want to cool a reactor down with water, you have to circulate the water inside and carry the heat away, otherwise it has no meaning. So the only solution is to reconnect the electricity. Otherwise it’s like pouring water on lava.
Yo: Reconnect the electricity – that’s to restart the cooling system?
Hirose: Yes. The accident was caused by the fact that the tsunami flooded the emergency generators and carried away their fuel tanks. If that isn’t fixed, there’s no way to recover from this accident.
Yo: Tepco [Tokyo Electric Power Company, owner/operator of the nuclear plants] says they expect to bring in a high voltage line this evening.
Hirose: Yes, there’s a little bit of hope there. But what’s worrisome is that a nuclear reactor is not like what the schematic pictures show (shows a graphic picture of a reactor, like those used on TV). This is just a cartoon. Here’s what it looks like underneath a reactor container (shows a photograph). This is the butt end of the reactor. Take a look. It’s a forest of switch levers and wires and pipes. On television these pseudo-scholars come on and give us simple explanations, but they know nothing, those college professors. Only the engineers know. This is where water has been poured in. This maze of pipes is enough to make you dizzy. Its structure is too wildly complex for us to understand. For a week now they have been pouring water through there. And it’s salt water, right? You pour salt water on a hot kiln and what do you think happens? You get salt. The salt will get into all these valves and cause them to freeze. They won’t move. This will be happening everywhere. So I can’t believe that it’s just a simple matter of you reconnecting the electricity and the water will begin to circulate. I think any engineer with a little imagination can understand this. You take a system as unbelievably complex as this and then actually dump water on it from a helicopter – maybe they have some idea of how this could work, but I can’t understand it.
Yo: It will take 1300 tons of water to fill the pools that contain the spent fuel rods in reactors 3 and 4. This morning 30 tons. Then the Self Defense Forces are to hose in another 30 tons from five trucks. That’s nowhere near enough, they have to keep it up. Is this squirting of water from hoses going to change the situation?
Hirose: In principle, it can’t. Because even when a reactor is in good shape, it requires constant control to keep the temperature down to where it is barely safe. Now it’s a complete mess inside, and when I think of the 50 remaining operators, it brings tears to my eyes. I assume they have been exposed to very large amounts of radiation, and that they have accepted that they face death by staying there. And how long can they last? I mean, physically. That’s what the situation has come to now. When I see these accounts on television, I want to tell them, “If that’s what you say, then go there and do it yourself!” Really, they talk this nonsense, trying to reassure everyone, trying to avoid panic. What we need now is a proper panic. Because the situation has come to the point where the danger is real.
If I were Prime Minister Kan, I would order them to do what the Soviet Union did when the Chernobyl reactor blew up, the sarcophagus solution, bury the whole thing under cement, put every cement company in Japan to work, and dump cement over it from the sky. Because you have to assume the worst case. Why? Because in Fukushima there is the Daiichi Plant with six reactors and the Daini Plant with four for a total of ten reactors. If even one of them develops the worst case, then the workers there must either evacuate the site or stay on and collapse. So if, for example, one of the reactors at Daiichi goes down, the other five are only a matter of time. We can’t know in what order they will go, but certainly all of them will go. And if that happens, Daini isn’t so far away, so probably the reactors there will also go down. Because I assume that workers will not be able to stay there.
I’m speaking of the worst case, but the probability is not low. This is the danger that the world is watching. Only in Japan is it being hidden. As you know, of the six reactors at Daiichi, four are in a crisis state. So even if at one everything goes well and water circulation is restored, the other three could still go down. Four are in crisis, and for all four to be 100 per cent repaired, I hate to say it, but I am pessimistic. If so, then to save the people, we have to think about some way to reduce the radiation leakage to the lowest level possible. Not by spraying water from hoses, like sprinkling water on a desert. We have to think of all six going down, and the possibility of that happening is not low. Everyone knows how long it takes a typhoon to pass over Japan; it generally takes about a week. That is, with a wind speed of two meters per second, it could take about five days for all of Japan to be covered with radiation. We’re not talking about distances of 20 kilometers or 30 kilometers or 100 kilometers. It means of course Tokyo, Osaka. That’s how fast a radioactive cloud could spread. Of course it would depend on the weather; we can’t know in advance how the radiation would be distributed. It would be nice if the wind would blow toward the sea, but it doesn’t always do that. Two days ago, on the 15th, it was blowing toward Tokyo. That’s how it is. . . .
Yo: Every day the local government is measuring the radioactivity. All the television stations are saying that while radiation is rising, it is still not high enough to be a danger to health. They compare it to a stomach x-ray, or if it goes up, to a CT scan. What is the truth of the matter?
Hirose: For example, yesterday. Around Fukushima Daiichi Station they measured 400 millisieverts – that’s per hour. With this measurement (Chief Cabinet Secretary) Edano admitted for the first time that there was a danger to health, but he didn’t explain what this means. All of the information media are at fault here I think. They are saying stupid things like, why, we are exposed to radiation all the time in our daily life, we get radiation from outer space. But that’s one millisievert per year. A year has 365 days, a day has 24 hours; multiply 365 by 24, you get 8760. Multiply the 400 millisieverts by that, you get 3,500,000 the normal dose. You call that safe? And what media have reported this? None. They compare it to a CT scan, which is over in an instant; that has nothing to do with it. The reason radioactivity can be measured is that radioactive material is escaping. What is dangerous is when that material enters your body and irradiates it from inside. These industry-mouthpiece scholars come on TV and what to they say? They say as you move away the radiation is reduced in inverse ratio to the square of the distance. I want to say the reverse. Internal irradiation happens when radioactive material is ingested into the body. What happens? Say there is a nuclear particle one meter away from you. You breathe it in, it sticks inside your body; the distance between you and it is now at the micron level. One meter is 1000 millimeters, one micron is one thousandth of a millimeter. That’s a thousand times a thousand squared. That’s the real meaning of “inverse ratio of the square of the distance.” Radiation exposure is increased by a factor of a trillion. Inhaling even the tiniest particle, that’s the danger.
Yo: So making comparisons with X-rays and CT scans has no meaning. Because you can breathe in radioactive material.
Hirose: That’s right. When it enters your body, there’s no telling where it will go. The biggest danger is women, especially pregnant women, and little children. Now they’re talking about iodine and cesium, but that’s only part of it, they’re not using the proper detection instruments. What they call monitoring means only measuring the amount of radiation in the air. Their instruments don’t eat. What they measure has no connection with the amount of radioactive material. . . .
Yo: So damage from radioactive rays and damage from radioactive material are not the same.
Hirose: If you ask, are any radioactive rays from the Fukushima Nuclear Station here in this studio, the answer will be no. But radioactive particles are carried here by the air. When the core begins to melt down, elements inside like iodine turn to gas. It rises to the top, so if there is any crevice it escapes outside.
Yo: Is there any way to detect this?
Hirose: I was told by a newspaper reporter that now Tepco is not in shape even to do regular monitoring. They just take an occasional measurement, and that becomes the basis of Edano’s statements. You have to take constant measurements, but they are not able to do that. And you need to investigate just what is escaping, and how much. That requires very sophisticated measuring instruments. You can’t do it just by keeping a monitoring post. It’s no good just to measure the level of radiation in the air. Whiz in by car, take a measurement, it’s high, it’s low – that’s not the point. We need to know what kind of radioactive materials are escaping, and where they are going – they don’t have a system in place for doing that now.
As for protective gear, it looks more like firefighting gear to me from what I've seen, alot of workers are wearing cloth masks ^^.
Some are wearing helmet/face mask's, maybe all of them are by now though...
It'll only protect them from the 1 kind of radiation, can't remember off hand, the one type that can be blocked with a few sheets of plastic...
Bad situtation but what can you do about it ^^ ? :\
Last edited by NEOAethyr; 03-24-2011 at 09:40 AM. Reason: typo
nice special on NHK, the radiation is only spiking in some locations based on the wind direction and amount of radioactive material released by fukushima.
in some towns radiation is almost normal, in the next town its above limits...
nhk recommends staying indoors even outside the 30km limit
the government is now measuring radioactivity and isotopes in a much denser grid in fukushima, wonder if they will do it outside of the fukushima prefecture as well since radioactivity has spread far beyond.
a professor at hiroshima has measured radioactivity throughout the disaster and they showed a nice animated model with wind directions, rainfall and measured radioactivity.
radioactivity spiked in many locations down the windstream after reactor 2 exploded and reactor4s spent fuel pool burned.
so those seem to be the major sources for the radioactivity and isotopes found all over northern japan now.
when reactor3 blew the wind luckily carried everything offshore...
no mention of seawater radiation btw...
so they really only measured it once, days after the explosions and fires, found it was WAY high, and thats all?
they never measured it again? wtf?
well, i guess the easiest way to get rid of numbers you dont want to come out, is not prevent them from ever being produced...
I think it's shocking that this could in the end affect all the way to tokyo and even osaka supposedly.
Which is even farther south then kyoto ^^.
We can only hope that after the reactors are taken care of, and cleanup has been finished, that everything will be back to normal for the majority of prefectures.
The effect on the pacific ocean and wild life though...
Saturating the nuke's with salt water, imagine wading through that water in the plant as a worker trying to fix it...
Wading through toxic waste...
100's of tons of toxic waste lol.
Alot of news src's say the nuke crises was caused by the 8.8/8.9/9.0 quake.
But I was under the assumption originally that it was the 7.1 aftershock is what caused it...
2011-03-11 06:25:51.
The reason why I assumed so is because of how long it took to report it from the time of the 9.0.
This is a ? I think that will be never answered though...
Anyways in a month from now hopefully the majority of this nuke crap will be over and focus can go where it should be, on the tsunami destruction.
So many people lost everything in those tsunami's...
I wish I could help.
Next month I'm gonna send $10 and see if I can't get it matched by crunchyroll or something like that.
Using my cell phone to send money didn't work at all.
Heard stories about unicef rencently or whatever they are called, so red cross it is I thinks for me...
Last edited by NEOAethyr; 03-24-2011 at 10:15 AM.
as far as i know the earthquake shut off all reactors right away, possibly even before it reached the power plant (they can detect quakes right when they happen with a sensor grid, and the shockwaves travel significantly slower than the light of speed, so they might have had a couple of seconds to prepare actually)
the problem was the tsunami which came even later than the quake, but was stronger than expected
in some areas the tsunami was taller than 15meters... which is insane... that means you can get washed out of the 5th/6th floor of a building...
go to any buildings 5th floor and look out of the window and then imagine a wave flowing across the street at the same level you are at... its unbelievable...
Last edited by saaya; 03-24-2011 at 10:26 AM.
Oh no doubt.
I was watching the news a few days ago when they were talking to a mayor, the mayor was told about a possible tsunami by a buddy of his, he got to the top of a building to check it out where his buddy was and sure enough, a tsunami was coming.
So he called out for people to get to safety, sec's later it was over, almost entire town was gone.
Right in front of the dudes eyes.
It seems the only type of buildings that survived the tsunami throughout japan were the reinforced concrete ones, with steal mesh inside the walls.
Most of everything else was toast.
There's been alot of diff stories from the people that survived.
I have to admit though I haven't watched nhk in a few days.
I got tired of it, I'll watch it tonight though.
When reading through that article I posted above I realized that they did have backup gen's.
A ? that I was thinking of originally, why no backup duh???, there was a backup though.
But it was for naught when the tsunami hit.
they had 2 backups, diesel and battery...
1. quake
2. reactors shut down
3. tsunami hits, electricity is lost, cooling systems stop
4. diesel backup generators turn on
5. diesel backup generators fail after a minute or two, probably damaged by the water... surprising that they turned on to begin with after the tsunami tbh...
6. battery backup kicked in cooling the reactors
the batteries lasted for a couple of hours, after that, cooling stopped...
the main flaw if you ask me is that they placed the diesel generators close to sea level... that doesnt make any sense whatsoever...
there are hills nearby, and they could have installed the generators at higher ground, making them tsunami safe...
having the pumps near sea level doesnt even make sense, but that wasnt the problem i think... but the generators... no idea why they did that...
i happen to know somebody who works at a high security server facility... and that thing is much safer than this reactor...
its deep underground, has several redundancies for every system, and would survive even if a nuke would explode right on top of it...
why they build server and government facilities this way and dont do it for reactors is beyond me...
and why they only started installing new power lines to the reactor almost one week after the disaster is beyond me as well...
Last edited by saaya; 03-24-2011 at 10:52 AM.
The generators should have been installed UNDER ground.they had 2 backups, diesel and battery...
1. quake
2. reactors shut down
3. tsunami hits, electricity is lost, cooling systems stop
4. diesel backup generators turn on
5. diesel backup generators fail after a minute or two, probably damaged by the water... surprising that they turned on to begin with after the tsunami tbh...
6. battery backup kicked in cooling the reactors
the batteries lasted for a couple of hours, after that, cooling stopped...
the main flaw if you ask me is that they placed the diesel generators close to sea level... that doesnt make any sense whatsoever...
there are hills nearby, and they could have installed the generators at higher ground, making them tsunami safe...
having the pumps near sea level doesnt even make sense, but that wasnt the problem i think... but the generators... no idea why they did that...
i happen to know somebody who works at a high security server facility... and that thing is much safer than this reactor...
its deep underground, has several redundancies for every system, and would survive even if a nuke would explode right on top of it...
why they build server and government facilities this way and dont do it for reactors is beyond me...
and why they only started installing new power lines to the reactor almost one week after the disaster is beyond me as well...
To late for should haves
But I do agree with you guys.
For the heck of it I looked up the pubble pond design thingy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor
This looks alot like the original design from ww2 I think.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mjal/2988851868/
lol, that thing has my name...
Yet they call it gen iv, lol...
Anyways, this so called mark iv is supposedly no safer then mark I reactors.
Ohwells, there's no stopping stuff like this...
@Cooper
I've seen that 11.03 and 15.03 pic before.
Whatever that road is, it looks like it's about done.
Last edited by NEOAethyr; 03-24-2011 at 11:29 AM.
@ cooper: wow! that is some impressive work been done
i wish they were that quick with fixing roads here in the Netherlands
Lies are so obvious to read, because the truth is already writen
I wish they'd be quick to do ANYTHING in NL@ cooper: wow! that is some impressive work been done
i wish they were that quick with fixing roads here in the Netherlands
But indeed the construction takes forever here. No wonder road and property taxes and prices are way too high.
Last edited by Cooper; 03-24-2011 at 12:22 PM.
You complain about NL i dont know what you are gonna think if you lived in my country
This does not sound very good:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...yl-levels.html
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