Actually there's 4 helicopter who spray continously water till this morning, problem is the peak of radiactivity for peoples on ground ( im sure even helicopters pilots are severly touched by the radioactivity ), each time the level increase they go back, each time the level decrease they go in... actually i think most peoples who are working there is seriousy injured by the radioactivity, on a certain sense, they are allready sacrify themselve trying this.Originally Posted by saaya
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Reactor design at Japanese plant raises questions
By Paul Handley (AFP) – 1 hour ago
WASHINGTON — The US-made reactors at Fukushima are coming under close scrutiny as experts point to flaws in their original design and the lack of a safety feature that the nuclear industry is only now starting to address.
Five of the six reactors at Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant are so-called Mark 1 boiling water reactor (BWR) models, developed by General Electric in the 1960s and installed in Japan in the 1970s.
In the 1970s, criticism amplified that the Mark 1's concrete containment shield, which surrounds the reactor vessel, was vulnerable to explosion caused by a buildup of hydrogen gas if the reactor overheated.
The original design "did not take into account the dynamic loads that could be experienced with a a loss of coolant," Dale Bridenbaugh, who quit as a GE engineer in 1975 over the alleged problem, told ABC News on Wednesday.
Blasts attributed to hydrogen have occurred at four of the Fukushima units, and the containment vessels at the No. 2 and No. 3 reactors have reportedly been damaged but not apparently ruptured.
A partial meltdown of the fuel rods has occurred in the Nos. 1, 2 and 3 reactors but the information from Fukushima -- while sketchy -- indicates the steel shells surrounding the reactors themselves have not been breached, say French safety agencies.
Michael Tetuan, spokesman for GE Hitachi Nuclear Energy, the current GE unit developing and selling nuclear plant technology, said there were 32 Mark 1 installations in the world, in addition to 23 in the United States.
The US Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) ordered US operators to retrofit Mark 1 plants in the 1980s to strengthen the containment vessel, he said.
"We shared that with our customers overseas ... but I can't tell you if they did indeed retrofit," he said.
"We understand that all of the BWR Mark 1 containment units at Fukushima Daiichi also addressed these issues and implemented modifications in accordance with Japanese regulatory requirements."
"Two potential safety concerns were identified for the GE Mark 1 design," Viktoria Mitlyng, a spokeswoman for the NRC, explained.
First was the ability of the torus -- a donut-shaped unit at the reactor base -- to withstand a high volume of steam that would be diverted to it during an accident.
The second issue was the unit's ability to vent the containment unit to prevent a build-up of hydrogen.
The NRC required the torus units to be reinforced, and hardened vents -- to safely vent any gas buildup -- were installed as well.
"These changes were implemented at all GE Mark 1 plants and inspected by the NRC," she said, referring to US plants.
Questions are also being asked about another aspect of the Mark 1 design, namely the location of cooling tanks which hold highly radioactive spent fuel rods.
They are placed outside the protection of the containment vessel.
These pools are now the source of intense anxiety in Fukushima, because pumps designed to circulate and top up the water that cools the immersed rods failed in the tsunami generated in the quake.
"At least two spent fuel pools at the Fukushima plant have caught fire and are releasing radiation into the atmosphere," said Edwin Lyman, a physicist and expert in nuclear plant design at the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), an NGO on nuclear safety.
"(...) The United States has 31 boiling-water reactors with similarly situated spent fuel pools that are far more densely packed than those at Fukushima and hence could pose far higher risks if damaged," Lyman said on Wednesday to the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee.
He called on US operators to withdraw some of the rods and place them in dry storage casks in order to reduce the heat load.
In Paris, Olivier Gupta, deputy director general of France's Institute for Radiological Protection and Nuclear Safety (IRSN), said the location of the fuel-rod pools outside the containment vessel was common to "many nuclear reactors, including in France."
"It's something that has been taken into account for new-generation reactors and will be modified," said Marie-Pierre Comets of another French watchdog agency, the Nuclear Safety Authority (ASN).
Copyright © 2011 AFP. All rights reserved. More »
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ab0215312e.6b1
I wonder one thing (thought I wouldn't be back in here, but alas...), is why don't they use boric acid on the spent fuel rods if its an effective means of "killing" the fuel itself and arresting fission? Then cart the poisoned rods off to storage?
Boric acid is a pollution risk in itself, plus water is very available near the plant, they just need the pumps.
Alright soooo.... Other day they were saying how the trade winds and such can and will be blowing radioactive material this way but now...... I think I believe this as much as I believe Japanese officials. Can NASA monitor the stream of radioactive particles in the atmosphere?
"Jaczko said there was no radiation threat to the United States.
"The basic physics and basic science really tells us that there can't be any risk or harm to anyone here in the United States, or Hawaii, or any of the other [U.S.] territories," Jaczko told reporters at a press briefing at the White House.
Deputy Energy Secretary Daniel Poneman alluded to the fast-paced series of events at the nuclear power plant. "The facts on the ground are genuinely complex. They are genuinely confusing," Poneman said.
Eleven American nuclear experts are in Japan assisting officials there with the crisis."
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I think it could end up affecting everyone.
In terms of increased levels of radioactivity across the globe, radon gas and etc.
Probably reduce everyone's life by a day and increase cancer and other health risks.
Something like that maybe.
That's not a bad idea.
I wonder if there terra modis sat has a radio scope thingy or whatever they would be for such a thing to show radiation across the globe on an sat overlay.
Edit:
Yep they do, but I'm unsure how to look at the data.
They have:
Albedo
Net Radiation
Outgoing Longwave Radiation
Reflected Shortwave Radiation
The net radiation info is from 2011 feb 1st -> the 28th.
I just don't know if actual radiation levels can be calc'ed with this data or not though.
They make there own google earth kml files for this stuff though, those might or might not be in realtime.
I'm sure there's a way of getting the realtime data from somewhere, there's a way of getting the generic data from that sat on a realtime basis, the sat is a crappy one but if it's not photo data well maybe it has it's uses...
Last edited by NEOAethyr; 03-17-2011 at 01:59 PM. Reason: tone it down..., it might of looked to spookyish or something
Albedo, Net Radiation, Outgoing Longwave Radiation and Reflected Shortwave Radiation have nothing to do with nuclear radiation...
You can start from here:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo
Darn, ohwell.
Maybe one of the other sat's has diff data to work with that is valid but otherwise... :|.
I know terra modis doesn't give you that data then.
There's a few other public sats though.
But still, I don't know of a way to show radiation levels...
Sorry, I tried thoughs (a tiny bit).
Edit:
I found this:
http://www.digitalglobe.com/index.ph...magery+Gallery
Not what I'm looking for but maybe some of you will have interest in it.
Sorry about this, I know it breaks the rules in terms of image size but... (this is from today, the 17th)
Last edited by NEOAethyr; 03-17-2011 at 03:13 PM.
Power lines are repaired and the cooling system will be working. It seems like it is already working for one of the reactors.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12779512
Worst case I'm worried about is the spent fuel rod pools drying up, the rods catching fire, melting and its ash blowing through the air. The wind slowly but steadily blows it to Tokyo, slow and steady wind is the worst cause it doesn't disperse the ash, then when the cloud reaches Tokyo it starts raining and its all washed down into Tokyo...
And this process could repeat in several waves, in theory for weeks or even months without intervention.
Realistically the worst thing I expect to happen is that they cover it all in concrete and the ground water and sea water get contaminated within a 10-20km radius for... a loooong time...
That's what I understood from reading and watching interviews of experts about this.
Last edited by saaya; 03-17-2011 at 04:59 PM.
Who the f... to these american (possibly others, I just happen to be watching CNN) news media people think they are!?? Jesus that's irritating, they demand these Japanese officials to give them answers now and anything else is considered unacceptable. Do they not understand they just had a f'ing earthquake and tsunami?? They're implying some sort of cover up from the government, if they think it's so bloody easy, why don't they get off their sissy pulpit and go find out themselves? No? Chicken siht you say? What a pack of hounds. They quote all these experts saying there is an imminent meltdown, and they need to do this, or they need to do that. Nobody is able to get close enough yet to see the full extent of the problem, so how the f... can they sit there and act like all knowing world guardians. I'll take the Japanese word over any opinionated journalist 5000 miles away.
A full-blown nuclear disaster at Fukushima can probably affect half of the world, so of course everybody is very concerned and we need to know what is happening. Journalists saying the japanese should do this or that are way out of line, but it's all media circus, the scientists don't listen to CNN for advices.
I don't like how some experts make it sound as if nothing really bad could happen, even if the suppression chambers blow and the spent fuel rod pools dry up and burn and melt...
Watched an interview on CNN yesterday and they made it sound like all those rods could be piled up under the open sky and oh well, you just shouldn't get close to it but there's no real danger besides that...
And that might actually be the case for reactor3
Nhk reports on aerial pics they could see the crane operating the pool and a reflection of water inside the pool... so its directly exposed to the environment...
All is fine... but they evacuate people
Nothing bad could happen, but they use improvised last effort attempts and go a long way to cool the reactors just a little
Radiation is low, but staff keeps getting evacuated and sent back
Us experts arrive and next thing you know, they advice a radius of 80km and evacuate staff from embassies
But yeah, nothing really bad could possibly happen...
Tired of this Bs...
I'm reading this as an attempt to prevent a panic in Tokyo...
Things are def worse than they claim, but how much worse?
Sure it can, but the Japanese experts are saying that isn't the case, and the media is completely underming their authority and siting their own experts that have absolutely no clue what is going on inside the plant, because they aren't there! The bloody media is fear mongering and causing world wide panic; example, there is a world wide shortage of potassium iodine tablets, so what about the people that really need them. Irresponsible journalsim as usual. Irritates the hell out of me.A full-blown nuclear disaster at Fukushima can probably affect half of the world, so of course everybody is very concerned and we need to know what is happening. Journalists saying the japanese should do this or that are way out of line, but it's all media circus, the scientists don't listen to CNN for advices
NEO
that pics is awesome..looks like one of the buildings look like its just melting away...
The impression I'm given is that things are pretty much on edge, able to go either way. They are attempting to hang on and make it through the next few weeks until things cool down a bit. Since they are using mox for some reactors, which contains some plutonium, there is a lot at stake. Aside from being toxic, it has a very long half life. I haven't any clue as to how much mox they do or don't use, so I don't want to overstate the point. However, a major release of radioactive materials, especially with a large amount of plutonium, could render an entire region uninhabitable for a long while. The half-life of the form used in mox is 88 years, luckily, and not other forms which are on the order of thousands or more years.
Well this isn't confidence building either:
Yes, of course, because ridiculously high levels of radiation are likely to stay concentrated in a small area and make a bee line for the Canadian/US coastlinesWell this isn't confidence building either:
. That's not even realistic.
That chart was taken out of context on the news a few days ago. The explanation is this could happen if there were an intense fire that carried the radiation up into the jet stream but that simply has not happened. The good news is that, in my opinion, these reactors should have completely gone up in smoke by now so maybe the reactions are slow enough for them to catch up somehow.
#2 reactor is the only one they will try to get the pumps running.
Best of luck, everyone is pulling for you.
Last edited by PaganII; 03-17-2011 at 07:49 PM. Reason: fat fingers
That picture orginates from 4chan. Please don't spread panic among the misinformed.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/technology/fallout.asp
Generators running at reactors #5 and #6 now.
Okay so we're talking about Japan land of robots and automation. Why can't they send in something to bring in a hose/ drop in a hose or some such thing to these areas and pump in water or
liquid nitrogen or liquid helium or something.
So things that crossed my mind so you don't think I'm retarded. Something really cold to something really hot = cracking or potential fire. I don't intend on getting to know nuclear rods
so you tell me if this would even do anything.
Where would they get this supply of liquid nitrogen or friggin dry ice or some such thing well their neighbors and or there's a floating nuclear reactor off their coast at the moment so
I dunno might work. Either way we see these Honda robots and such dance andwhy cant they take in a hose? Or would radio signals get f'ed up.
Also how hot are these exposed rods? I mean they dropped water on them but you'd figure it be steam pretty quick?
Also if these things are putting out 20units an hour of radiation wouldn't everything in the area pretty much now be radioactive? How did they clean this stuff up after Hiroshima?
Last edited by Glow9; 03-17-2011 at 09:07 PM.
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I agree.. but you can see it the other way around as well...
Gov didn't tell press and people anything at first and then too little and too many half truths... that created huge demand for news...
the problem isn't the demand for news but the lack of supply...
The only way to satisfy the demand for news and reduce it, is by being honest and gaining trust. What the Japanese gov did and still is doing is the opposite...
They have a responsibility to inform the public to make educated decisions.
Instead they are creating a fascist "we know what's best for you" news suppression system. I thought Japan was a free country?
I prefer lunatic end of the world loggers over lunatic Govs trying to control the public to their own advantages any day.
And when this is over, I hope there's a political shake up.
exactly... from their actions its obvious that there is a lot at stake, but they keep saying there isn't...
Great to hear 5 and 6 are back to normal!
Don't think the robot could navigate through the mess there...Okay so we're talking about Japan land of robots and automation. Why can't they send in something to bring in a hose/ drop in a hose or some such thing to these areas and pump in water or
liquid nitrogen or liquid helium or something.
So things that crossed my mind so you don't think I'm retarded. Something really cold to something really hot = cracking or potential fire. I don't intend on getting to know nuclear rods
so you tell me if this would even do anything.
Where would they get this supply of liquid nitrogen or friggin dry ice or some such thing well their neighbors and or there's a floating nuclear reactor off their coast at the moment so
I dunno might work. Either way we see these Honda robots and such dance and
Also how hot are these exposed rods? I mean they dropped water on them but you'd figure it be steam pretty quick?
Also if these things are putting out 20units an hour of radiation wouldn't everything in the area pretty much now be radioactive? How did they clean this stuff up after Hiroshima?
After hiroshima they used builders to remove the surface layer of most of the city and burried it somewhere as far as I know...
Last edited by saaya; 03-17-2011 at 11:35 PM.
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