LightPeak->Thunderbolt: Apple and Intel unveil Thunderbolt I/O technology

[cx-ray]

Thunderbolt ports can't be added to existing PCs via an expansion card; Intel says the only way to have it is to buy a system or logic board that incorporates the new Thunderbolt controller chip. That's because the Thunderbolt chip needs direct access to both the system's video and PCI Express architecture.

Does this imply that 3D work performed by the AMD GPU has to travel back through the PCIe bus in order to be displayed through a Thunderbolt connector?

[saaya]

This is huge...

yeah! this is the best thing intel has done since c2d imo!

glad i didnt jump on the usb3 bandwagon, i knew this was coming
ill make sure my next gen smartphone has thunderbolt!

Thunderbolt ports can't be added to existing PCs via an expansion card; Intel says the only way to have it is to buy a system or logic board that incorporates the new Thunderbolt controller chip. That's because the Thunderbolt chip needs direct access to both the system's video and PCI Express architecture.

dont get it... so having a pciE thunderbolt bridge chip with integrated display port engine doesnt work... why?

[zalbard]

dont get it... so having a pciE thunderbolt bridge chip with integrated display port engine doesnt work... why?

Cause they need to sell boards, I guess...

[Mech0z]

I want a DIY ViDock based on this instead of the one I have much more bandwidth, should give almost 100% performance of a pci-e 2.0

[SKYMTL]

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ntil_2012.html

So it is Apple exclusive tech till spring 2012 ?

If Apple helped fund development, then that may be the case but IMO it would be an absolutely ridiculous decision by both parties. It would choke off competition in a segment that is DRIVEN by the PC's widespread market share.

Not allowing PC manufacturers to implement Thunderbolt from the onset will basically push it into a niche which is NOT something that will aid acceptance.

Also, this little tidbit is patently wrong:

The new standard is not backwardly compatible with USB 3.0, and Thunderbolt ports can't be added to existing PCs via an expansion card; Intel says the only way to have it is to buy a system or logic board that incorporates the new Thunderbolt controller chip. That's because the Thunderbolt chip needs direct access to both the system's video and PCI Express architecture.

Intel details in their White Paper that backwards compatibility CAN be achieved by using a PCI-E bridge chip in parallel with a TB controller. This in effect would allow either add-in cards or stand-alone adaptors to be created. The press conference never mentioned that it wasn't possible, they just said that it would take additional logic to be implemented.

Here's the passage from the White Paper:

Users can always connect to their other non-Thunderbolt products at the end of a daisy chain by using Thunderbolt technology adapters (e.g., to connect to native PCI Express
devices like eSata, Firewire, etc.). These adapters can be easily built using a Thunderbolt controller with off-the-shelf PCI Express-to-“other technology” controllers.

[bamtan2]

Also, this little tidbit is patently wrong:



Intel details in their White Paper that backwards compatibility CAN be achieved by using a PCI-E bridge chip in parallel with a TB controller. This in effect would allow either add-in cards or stand-alone adaptors to be created. The press conference never mentioned that it wasn't possible, they just said that it would take additional logic to be implemented.

Here's the passage from the White Paper:

I think you are misunderstanding. that quote is talking about something different. it says a company can build an ethernet adapter that plugs into thunderbolt. meanwhile that mac site says a company cannot build a pci-e card that outputs thunderbolt because there is no way to get the video to the card.

[bamtan2]

ill make sure my next gen smartphone has thunderbolt!

they didn't mention anything about phones, and there is no small thunderbolt connector, so I don't know where you got that idea

[bamtan2]

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ntil_2012.html

So it is Apple exclusive tech till spring 2012 ?

that report is unclear. basically bad reporting.

PC makers are expected to begin adding Thunderbolt to their machines next spring, giving Apple a year to trailblaze the technology

That to me reads like board makers dont want it. They're taking a wait-and-see approach and told intel "maybe next year". But since they're unclear, how can you tell?

Well, a commenter says this: "According to the CNET article, it's not that Apple has an exclusive. Intel just thinks that PC manufacturers will probably wait until their next design cycles to implement."

[zalbard]

Are there any peripherals with Thunderbolt support being showcased already?

PROMISE Technology Announces Pegasus Storage Line (DAS)
LaCie Outs Little Big Disk

[Tenknics]

Batman must be hand picked by AMD to just take negative dumps all over this thread. Great insight man, great insight. Truly contributing to the conversation!

Ever think of any usage scenario other than your own?

I'd love to plug 1 light peak cable from my laptop to my 24" monitor and then all the rest of my peripherals into the monitor..kinda like how it already is but with 10 less cables.

[h0bbes]

Why would AMD care about Lightpeak? It does not compete directly with any of their products and anyway i wouldnt say that bamtan2 is an AMD fanboy..

[alucasa]

I am kinda of excited because I see eSATA as a failure and USB3 adaption is so dang slow.

For my personal usage, I can see one usage for Thunderbolt: It is to separate my rig and storage compartment completely. I like having a central storage (sort of NAS but for more friendly access and usage).

[Clairvoyant129]

Why would AMD care about Lightpeak? It does not compete directly with any of their products and anyway i wouldnt say that bamtan2 is an AMD fanboy..

Anything that benefits Intel, whether or not the product competes with AMD, doesn't bode well for AMDroids.

[SKYMTL]

I think you are misunderstanding. that quote is talking about something different. it says a company can build an ethernet adapter that plugs into thunderbolt. meanwhile that mac site says a company cannot build a pci-e card that outputs thunderbolt because there is no way to get the video to the card.

There is nothing in the passage I quoted which indicates they are talking about Ethernet.

And yes, just like the DisplayPort functions can be used without passing a PCI-E signal to a secondary device, the PCI-E signal can be sent without piggybacking on a display signal.

[bamtan2]

There is nothing in the passage I quoted which indicates they are talking about Ethernet.

And yes, just like the DisplayPort functions can be used without passing a PCI-E signal to a secondary device, the PCI-E signal can be sent without piggybacking on a display signal.

It was an example. Let me clarify:

Thunderbolt technology enables engineers to:

Extend to reach other I/O technologies by using adapters that use widely available PCI Express controllers. It's simple to create a Gigabit Ethernet, or FireWire, or eSATA adapters using existing device PCI Express drivers.

http://www.intel.com/technology/io/t...bolt/index.htm

10:34 a.m. (Dong Ngo) : There won't be add-in TB adapters, you'll need a new computer/motherboard that supports TB.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-20...ap;editorPicks


So, like I said. There are no adapters which output Thunderbolt. There are only adapters for pcie devices which plug into Thunderbolt. "Adapter" is apparently not a clearly defined word right now, thus some confusion.

[Andrew LB]

they didn't mention anything about phones, and there is no small thunderbolt connector, so I don't know where you got that idea

Check out some Apple-centric sites. Word is the iPad2 will have lightpeak.


Perhaps you can explain why this card has a lightpeak chip on it?

So, like I said. There are no adapters which output Thunderbolt. There are only adapters for pcie devices which plug into Thunderbolt. "Adapter" is apparently not a clearly defined word right now, thus some confusion.

Later from the same interview:

10:40 a.m. (Josh Lowensohn) : Q: Will we see add-on cards for laptops?

A: Like using the PCI Express slot? We don't have a specific implementation to talk to you about that today.

Sounds to me like he was backtracking a little. By claiming there will be no add-in cards, they wont risk hurting any sales of brand new, very expensive mac book pro's.

[Mad Pistol]

Why would AMD care about Lightpeak? It does not compete directly with any of their products and anyway i wouldnt say that bamtan2 is an AMD fanboy..

That's the thing though. Intel has bypassed the whole "anti-competitive practice" thing by allowing apple to use it. It's not going to be a product exclusive to intel chipsets. If this technology takes off and starts heading down the path to becoming a standard in the industry, AMD will be dead in the water without it. In that case, they will have to pay intel their royalties to adapt the technology.

Unless AMD has their own implementation of this tech, they're going to have to get it from Intel. Seeing as Intel is a much larger company, AMD isn't going to be able to have a competing standard. They simply do not have the money to go on such a campaign. Therefore, if Thunderbolt is successful, AMD is going to need it to survive.




I like this tech so far. The fact that it's a blanket technology for USB3.0, eSATA, SATA3, and all the video adaptor ports (with sound), Light peak has the makings of a highly successful standard in the future. I mean, if you can channel virtually anything down one cable, wouldn't you use it? No more going out looking for a specific cable type. All you would need is a TB cable (sounds like a bad disease )




Seriously though, I could swear TB is already taken by a disease that affects the lungs.




"Hey guys, I just got my TB cable from Newegg. *cough* This cough has been bothering me for a few days. *cough* *cough* I think I need to see a doctor."

Nice going Intel.

[JohnZS]

Am I the only person here who sees the irony in Apple getting their hands on a new interface which has almost limitless potential, is ground breaking innovative and will provide the end user with a lot more connectivity options.
We all know that Apple will lock it down tight with DRM and their propitiatory interface that Light Peak/Thunderbolt is going to be crippled on the Apple Platform.

I am looking forward to when LightPeak/Thunderbolt is unveiled on the PC Platform, THEN we will see what can be achieved with this new, innovative and ground breaking technology with almost limitless potential.
John

[bamtan2]

Check out some Apple-centric sites. Word is the iPad2 will have lightpeak.

Perhaps you can explain why this card has a lightpeak chip on it?

another player using his imagination. all rumors and guesses. you don't know what ipad2 will have, and you don't know what that board is for.

meanwhile I'm talking about facts. Intel didn't talk about ipad2, Intel didn't talk about mobile devices, Intel didn't talk about small mobile plugs, Intel didn't talk about Thunderbolt expansion cards.

there is news, and then there is imagination.

[qcmadness]

That's the thing though. Intel has bypassed the whole "anti-competitive practice" thing by allowing apple to use it. It's not going to be a product exclusive to intel chipsets. If this technology takes off and starts heading down the path to becoming a standard in the industry, AMD will be dead in the water without it. In that case, they will have to pay intel their royalties to adapt the technology.

Unless AMD has their own implementation of this tech, they're going to have to get it from Intel. Seeing as Intel is a much larger company, AMD isn't going to be able to have a competing standard. They simply do not have the money to go on such a campaign. Therefore, if Thunderbolt is successful, AMD is going to need it to survive.

I like this tech so far. The fact that it's a blanket technology for USB3.0, eSATA, SATA3, and all the video adaptor ports (with sound), Light peak has the makings of a highly successful standard in the future. I mean, if you can channel virtually anything down one cable, wouldn't you use it? No more going out looking for a specific cable type. All you would need is a TB cable (sounds like a bad disease )

Seriously though, I could swear TB is already taken by a disease that affects the lungs.

"Hey guys, I just got my TB cable from Newegg. *cough* This cough has been bothering me for a few days. *cough* *cough* I think I need to see a doctor."

Nice going Intel.

If Intel really made it free, then there is no problem.
Otherwise AMD and other ARM-related platform will suffer.

[SabreWulf69]

Intel: No Plans for Support of Other Protocols over Thunderbolt.

Thunderbolt to Remain PCIe and mDP Solution

Even though originally Light Peak was meant to support a number of completely different protocols, its final implementation - Thunderbolt 1.0 - only supports two. As a result, those device makers, who want compliancy with the tech should acquire a controller from Intel.

"PCI Express and DisplayPort are supported natively. Other protocols can be supported via adapters," said Dave Salvator, a spokesman for Intel, in an interview with X-bit labs.

At this point Intel does not comment whether it plans to support the Thunderbolt - previously known as Light Peak - by its chipsets and when. Besides, the company believes that the TB will complement USB, but not replace the USB 3.0.

"We see Thunderbolt and USB 3.0 as complementary, we continue to support USB 3.0," added Mr. Salvator.

Using adapters or other means it will be possible for device makers to comply to the TB standard.

"If you can make a device use PCI Express, it can run on Thunderbolt," said the Intel spokesperson.

Thunderbolt technology supports two low-latency communications protocols - PCI Express for data transfer and DisplayPort for displays. Thunderbolt technology works on data streams in both directions, at the same time, so users get the benefit of full bandwidth in both directions, over a single cable. With the two independent channels, a full 10Gb/s of bandwidth (something not truly needed for HDDs these days) can be provided for the first device in the chain of the devices. All Thunderbolt technology devices share a common Mini DisplayPort connector. Intel's Thunderbolt controllers interconnect a PC and other devices, transmitting and receiving packetized traffic for both PCIe and DisplayPort protocols and thus makers HDDs need to develop or use additional controllers to make their drives compatible with the TB I/O interface.

Intel claims that the adoption rate of the new I/O technology will not be considerably limited. Still, it is aimed currently at professionals rather than on typical consumers.

"The combination of the very fast data transfer and beyond-HD display support on a single slender cable has great appeal for HD media creators, especially who work on laptops. Those same features also solve the big challenges posed by the growing HD media libraries many of us now own," stated Mr. Salvator.


Source: Xbit

[zalbard]

Well, USB3 makes a lot of sense to use for devices that don't need insane throughput. Plus the infrastructure is built already.

[itznfb]

Any source indicates Thunderbolt is not proprietary?

USB is maintained by a consortium.

http://www.wegotserved.com/2011/02/2...king-big-disk/

This article is about the LaCie drive but mentions that it is proprietary.
Though there are strong rumors that Nikon's D4 will have a Thunderbolt connection which would lead to market assumptions being made that it will be wide spread and readily available upon the D4's release.

[Computurd]

dudes. this is the future. get over it. They already have a succesor to this that is WAY faster and better. try 50GBPS.http://hothardware.com/News/Intel-An...-Breakthrough/

LightPeak isnt going away. Intel will not let it.

lets see, we lock all peripheral connections down to one. we integrate NB/SB and bring them on die. then we bring PCIE controller on-die as well. then we come up with this wonderful new device that is piggybacking over pcie until it replaces it.
this is the groundwork for optical computing, and also the progression of Intel owning EVERYTHING. they want it all on-die and the methods of connecting to that over their own proprietary connection. smart business move.
this one benefits us though. lots. hit the wiki if you dont get it.
ive been following this one for years, and to see it come to fruition is awesome. i couldnt be happier! you are aboutu to start seeing some radical new things in computing, and this is the preparation for them.

[cegras]

I don't see how this is groundbreaking. It provides one common interface, but in the end you still need a hub or something to split the PCIE lanes into all your standard fare - eSATA, USB, etc.

It might be more convenient, smushing them all together into one interface, but in it's just another interface for peripherals to use. For older peripherals, you will still need to have an adapter.