ATI cannot make working video drivers

[Carfax]

Have you got a link that ATI/AMD says its a hardware problem.

Trouble is, after the Radeon HD 5000 series had been in the market for while, folks started noticing some problems with Cypress' texture filtering, especially in textures with lots of fine, high-contrast detail. This problem wasn't evident in every case—heck, I never noticed it myself while gaming on a Cypress card—but it turned out to be quite real. At the press event for Barts, AMD Graphics CTO Eric Demers admitted that it was an issue with Cypress-era hardware.

Source

[Final8ty]

Source

Well the strange thing is that banding in TM games i have noticed on 1800xt, 1900xt, 3870 as well & of course i noticed it on the 5970 but after that driver i could not notice any more.

So maybe the TM example is not what we should be looking for.

But i will take a closer look when i have time.

[audiofreak]

Since what I was telling from the beginning has been admitted by ATI, I am going to ignore the naysayers from now on.

After initial hype from review sites about the issue being fixed with 6xxx series it now turns out that it is not, some say it is even worse:

http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulle...&postcount=213

[demonkevy666]

I'm calling BS on this AF an AA stuff

The one below Deadspace, with out the label here look at the fraps number in the top left corner on both pics.
hardware doesn't just do AA on anything on screen it get directed from drivers.
so why did the fraps numbers get AA'd then ?

MLAA MSAA Comparisons

Starcraft II
http://www.abload.de/img/valrumlaa-sc2uths.png

Final Fantasy XIV
http://www.abload.de/img/valrumlaasp2d.png

Dead Space
MLAA
http://d.imagehost.org/0261/DSMLAA.jpg
NoAA
http://d.imagehost.org/0703/DSNOAA.jpg

NoAA
http://www.abload.de/img/1xaabnya.jpg
MLAA
http://h-1.abload.de/img/morphpnbe.jpg < WTF is the Fraps numbers getting MLAA ?

Half Life 2
http://www.abload.de/img/valrumlaa-hl2-1xsia.png
http://www.abload.de/img/valrumlaa-hl2-2mruj.png

Mass Effect
NoAA
MLAA
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3999/me2comblarge.png

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,79...fikkarte/Test/

[blindbox]

I'm calling BS on this AF an AA stuff

The one below Deadspace, with out the label here look at the fraps number in the top left corner on both pics.
hardware doesn't just do AA on anything on screen it get directed from drivers.
so why did the fraps numbers get AA'd then ?

What exactly are you talking about? Those are MLAA, it's an AA technique that does it by post-processing the output of the graphics card. Whatever you see on screen gets MLAA applied. Techreport did some extensive review on it, except for perf data. It's simply how MLAA works.

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/19844/3

[aztec]

I as i said it depends on the importance of the subject & subject is not important enough for the attitude to be acceptable & people tend to ignore a raving lunatic & people already knew about the issue but you were not happy that they didn't feel the way about it like you did & you through a rant tantrum, thus you don't get apologies.

"feel the way about it like you did" and having a position based on actual facts are 2 different things. Feelings are not facts.

Phrases such as "raving lunatic" and "rant tantrum" are yet more exaggerations, used as a substitute for a defensible position...which yours is not.

Apparently, this subject is important enough for several different members to post in (including yourself) and many pages long, so we can toss that one out the window too.

As others have said, if not for some of the puffed-up egos here, those shown to be incorrect would graciously admit it and move along.

[Final8ty]

"feel the way about it like you did" and having a position based on actual facts are 2 different things. Feelings are not facts.

Phrases such as "raving lunatic" and "rant tantrum" are yet more exaggerations, used as a substitute for a defensible position...which yours is not.

Apparently, this subject is important enough for several different members to post in (including yourself) and many pages long, so we can toss that one out the window too.

As others have said, if not for some of the puffed-up egos here, those shown to be incorrect would graciously admit it and move along.

I'm not denying there is an issue but its not one that i would push down peoples neck or one that i would get upset about.

Its not about whether a problem exists or not its whether its an important one.

Like Someone making a big issue of the fact that we may kill collectively 1000s of ants a day every time we step foot out our front doors & go on & on that we should all care about it.

And yes i exaggerated & it was obvious that it was one , but some times the raving lunatic is right but it falls on deaf ears because of that.

[aztec]

^ I'd say ATi's AA/AF performance compared to NV has long been a fairly important issue to the enthusiast (most XS peeps), though this particular matter may be more "the eye of the beholder".

At any rate, audiofreak deserves kudos here for pointing this out and giving the visual evidence. However big or small an issue it is, it does at least show the modus operandi of ATi.

[Final8ty]

^ I'd say ATi's AA/AF performance compared to NV has long been a fairly important issue to the enthusiast (most XS peeps), though this particular matter may be more "the eye of the beholder".

At any rate, audiofreak deserves kudos here for pointing this out and giving the visual evidence. However big or small an issue it is, it does at least show the modus operandi of ATi.

Noting wrong with pointing it out but to think that you can go about in anyway you like is asking for people not to listen or take you seriously.

And yes it was important when the difference were much wider & much more obvious but its getting to the point of splitting hairs which many don't care about & this thread is proof that many don't really care about the difference because its so small in real would gaming & its takes stills & blow-up to be even noticeable now in most cases.

[aztec]

but to think that you can go about in anyway you like is asking for people not to listen or take you seriously.

Truth be told, there was plenty of that from many posters.

[Final8ty]

Truth be told, there was plenty of that from many posters.

Indeed & the same would go for them.

[audiofreak]

Indeed & the same would go for them.

And why exactly are you (still) participating in this thread, and why we (still) have to read your opinion if you are not interested?

Isn't it simpler not to click on the thread if you are not interested and do something else with your precious time?

Like everyone else who has been attacking or even insulting me, you came here out of your own free will, yet you dare to whine about me "pushing it down people's necks".

Some people wouldn't see their own dishonesty and hipocrisy if those two were erected horse d*cks hanging infront of their faces.

[Final8ty]

And why exactly are you (still) participating in this thread, and why we (still) have to read your opinion if you are not interested?

Isn't it simpler not to click on the thread if you are not interested and do something else with your precious time?

Like everyone else who has been attacking or even insulting me, you came here out of your own free will, yet you dare to whine about me "pushing it down people's necks".

Some people wouldn't see their own dishonesty and hipocrisy if those two were erected horse d*cks hanging infront of their faces.

And why don't you read what i have said & you will, see that im trying to resolve something.

Source

Well the strange thing is that banding in TM games i have noticed on 1800xt, 1900xt, 3870 as well & of course i noticed it on the 5970 but after that driver i could not notice any more.

So maybe the TM example is not what we should be looking for.

But i will take a closer look when i have time.

This is a totally civil communication & debate but yet your moaning.

But of coarse that's not good enough for you because im not taking your view on the issue.

You have a right to blow all things out of proportion & i have the right & the free will to enter the thread & rebut them.

It was your free will to make a point in a totally Trolling way & people have a right to call you out on that.

[PaganII]

It is a basic troll thread. Same as going on intel forum and saying intel can't make a cpu without erratta.

[blindbox]

It is a basic troll thread. Same as going on intel forum and saying intel can't make a cpu without erratta.

Hah, nicely said.

[MarkJohnson]

Sorry if I'm off topic, but I haven't read all the messages in this thraf.

Anyway, I have a huge complaint on drivers working then not working from month to month for over a year for my 1080p monitor. I even rma'd three different 1080p monitors and tried 3 different video cards (5870, 5770, and 5670) and every single month it gets messed up in some form and then works the following month or two. You'd think it would be ironed out within a few months once it works. The last working driver was 10.7, I tghink 10.10 is working (it worked for my uncle's new computer yesterday, but I haven't installed it yet on mine)

BTW, the issue is the black border around the desktop. It does it from the bios always and needs firmware updates on supporting 1080p as it seems to be a TV mode and radeons don't like it. There is a scaling option in the control panel that you can manually adjust and get it working. Although last months 10.9 driver wouldn't save it properly for some reason. past months would auto scale fine, while others didn't and a year ago scaling was removed.

Anyway, after a year this should have been addressed as it seem to have been resolved on several different occasions. I know it's not a major issue to deal with, but an annoying one that constantly shows up.

[SoulsCollective]

Sorry if I'm off topic, but I haven't read all the messages in this thraf.

Anyway, I have a huge complaint on drivers working then not working from month to month for over a year for my 1080p monitor. I even rma'd three different 1080p monitors and tried 3 different video cards (5870, 5770, and 5670) and every single month it gets messed up in some form and then works the following month or two. You'd think it would be ironed out within a few months once it works. The last working driver was 10.7, I tghink 10.10 is working (it worked for my uncle's new computer yesterday, but I haven't installed it yet on mine)

BTW, the issue is the black border around the desktop. It does it from the bios always and needs firmware updates on supporting 1080p as it seems to be a TV mode and radeons don't like it.

If the problem exists from the moment you turn your PC on it can't be drivers. Drivers don't kick in until Windows loads - the normal process of updating video drivers doesn't go anywhere near low-level card firmware, which it would need to in order to produce that kind of behaviour. Whatever's going on here it isn't the drivers that are to blame.

There is a scaling option in the control panel that you can manually adjust and get it working. Although last months 10.9 driver wouldn't save it properly for some reason. past months would auto scale fine, while others didn't and a year ago scaling was removed.

Anyway, after a year this should have been addressed as it seem to have been resolved on several different occasions. I know it's not a major issue to deal with, but an annoying one that constantly shows up.

Over and under-scan options haven't worked reliably for a while, I agree. Probably due to the HTPC/video changes ATi have been making lately.

[OCX600RR]

This is how 16xAF looks on NVIDIA GTX 470:


If you get D3D AF Tester as I suggested above, you will be able to compare the result with your "pure awesomeness" high-end ATI video cards -- set Mipmaps to Normal and Use Checkerboard Texture slider to 2 in order to get comparable image to mine.

EDIT:
Added HD 5870 sample image, courtesy of Lukija


On HD 5xxx series you will only see a flat gray disc in the middle with those settings. Someone might say "it is better filtering" (good joke!), but even if that was the case, transitions between filtering stages should not be as abrupt and harsh as they are on ATI cards. Whatever way you put it, anisotropic filtering is broken on 5xxx series.

Same settings on 6870 - Seems improved but the GTX 470 looks better still.

[demonkevy666]

Of course it does, and it looks even worse in motion. Just try looking at detailed terrain textures.

EDIT:
Perhaps this will be a more convincing example

D3D AF-Tester settings for reproducing the following images:
- Use Checkerboard Texture (slider at 2)
- Mipmaps: Normal
- Objects: Plane, distance 3.0, angle 55.0°.

GTX 470:


HD 5870:


Note how with ATI 5xxx series there is a large X-shaped loss of detail on the center of the horizon (same would happen in any game with detailed terrain and that is the point where you would be looking at most of the time in FPS game), and how there is a ball-shaped geometric distortion up close (as if a sphere is protruding from below the terrain).

Don't forget to always look at the full-size samples.



"Very specific situation" has been constructed to make you notice how abrupt are the transitions between various filtering stages on latest ATI hardware. Not on all ATI hardware mind you -- you get smooth transitions between filtering stages on 4xxx series. Ironic, eh?

Yes, 5xxx has worse image quality than 4xxx. It's IQ has obviously been sacrificed for speed. Whether this has been done intentionally in driver code (i.e. cheating for FPS and benchmark scores), or is a genuine hardware limitation of 5xxx series which cannot be fixed without taking a performance hit which would bring performance to be in line with NVIDIA (or lower) it remains to be seen.

Luckily I won't have to look at it anymore.

Ok yeah I did do it wrong now I see how you did that.
edit. find this in game, and not just on flat grounds maybe on tress or building or rocks, could show better.

[SiliconDoc]

installed 10.9a's on my system a couple of nights ago. Fixed my mouse corruption in SC2, fixed the overscan issues i was having with 10.8, and haven't had a single issue with the install.

Using the normal method of add/remove programs, change ati catalyst install manager, remove all ati stuff, then restart and re-install latest drivers.

GG ATI finally getting somewhere!

Nice to know you only got screwed for one month.

[SiliconDoc]

So you're willing to admit that Nvidia has driver issues? Checkmate.

Now THAT's HILARIOUS.
That states exactly where things actually are. It's rare an nvidia user even believes there are ANY driver problems - after all they use nvidia cards.

On the other side (amd/ati) though...

I don't know why purportedly sane people ever try to claim that is not the stark reality. Nvidia has HUNDREDS of people working on drivers and with game makers and amdati has "a few". Been that way for a long, long time.
Just recently reported AGAIN, with verifications from both companies.
I'm sure the ragers will once again try to claim otherwise.
Whatever.
They claimed amd ati could bury nvidia for YEARS, as amd ati had billions and billions in debt crushing them, and nvidia had nearly a couple billion in the bank.

Why aren't people who support "the underdog" familiar or willing to associate themselves with the truth - that was my question for so long - and I concluded that deep down, subconsciously or even with a slight mental awareness at times, they realize if they don't vehemently rage and rant for ati and against nvidia, the crushing debt of amd ati could cause complete collapse, so they are hell bent on roto-rooting nvidia and cheering like pubescent girls for ati.

It's a "survival" thing, and they just can't help it - like a cornered rabid animal on it's last leg... comes out spitting and fighting - crazy man.

Yep, so hopefully Cayman can fix some of that - I'd love to see a stable card with the 4d shaders that does well and does not have so many issues it could fill page after page of one or two liners. I just found out about another half dozen ati problems this past week - and I thought I knew them all.

Wouldn't be a problem if the cornered rabidity wasn't so far in debt that it's very survival is in question - at least that's what I think. No other sane explanation for the break from reality.

[MarkJohnson]

If the problem exists from the moment you turn your PC on it can't be drivers. Drivers don't kick in until Windows loads - the normal process of updating video drivers doesn't go anywhere near low-level card firmware, which it would need to in order to produce that kind of behaviour. Whatever's going on here it isn't the drivers that are to blame.
Over and under-scan options haven't worked reliably for a while, I agree. Probably due to the HTPC/video changes ATi have been making lately.

Yes, the firmware needs addressing, but...

It seems it's the EDID settings listed in the monitor and the firmware isn't reading it right, then it carries over to the desktop, except when the drivers are working correctly and it adjusts the scaling automatically. also, all the non-HDTV modes don't seem to have an issue.

I wonder if this still occurs with the 6000 series? it's happened on all the 1080p monitors and was an issue for HDTVs in the past. Not sure if those TVs have issue anymore, but my monitor still does.

I used to have a link to hacking the EDIDs, but I lost it and wasn't brave enough to try modifying it anyway.

[SiliconDoc]

People, stop flaming and be constructive or I will ask a mod to lock this thread, its helping nobody.

If there is anyone who wants to CONSTRUCTIVLY criticise Catalyst drivers why don't you go and track down their latest tweet / blog / whatever and voice your concerns with the poor quality of software. If everybody does that AMD (yes I call ATI AMD when theres issues like this because ever since AMD bought ATI drivers HAVE taken a sharp downfall in quality) they will have to listen.

Well, I appreciate your second paragraph, and one would think it would be true but actually end users have already spammed amdati's report gui and I have personally seen AMD's top driver guy claim they were "not aware" of this or that problem - after the users pointed out their using the web report form, so it sounds correct what you say that they will "have to listen" but it seems to me the BEST that ever occurred was the recent Hardocp outing on crossfire drivers problems ( an ati friendly site ) - and then they DID take notice and their driver master Terry came in to hear issues and Kyle tried to coax people to be very specific - and indeed there may have been some improvement since the new Barts do much better - although that could be (or likely is) the slight die changes made for that.
Anyway.

I believe one of the problems is that I have witnessed at least a year of suppression concerning the ati driver issues whereby we are all told there "is no difference" between the two companies and that type of talk is ENFORCED to the nth degree everywhere I have ever been in forums on all the popular sites, and it is that very thing that lets ATI slide in my opinion. The very thing that let's them and their end user base claim so often "nothing is really wrong" and "nvidia has just as many problems" so basically "shut up". Their company people and driver teams and people in power may certainly LATCH ON to that stuff on the web - and therefore - their backsides are covered !

I have only recently seen a small change in that "pop culture" enforced directive all over the web - as I stated Kyle @ Hard finally got fed up for once and some pressure was brought to bear...

Since we all should know well enough that amdati doesn't have the money to pay for driver fixes and refinements like nvidia does, and certainly doesn't have any where near the equivalent of the TWIMTBP program, it may not be possible for "them to listen".

I frankly do not like the suppression of the truth, and although I believe I understand WHY it occurs as I said in my just prior post to this one, it still irks me that it seems every web forum has a bunch of people ready to scream troll and bring the hammer down on people when "they don't like what they hear" even when it is the un-candied up truth.

I don't know how anyone can "be productive" in this thread other than "helping fix" someone else's driver problems or agreeing with the thread title or posting their own issues ( sorry that's all "productive" if you ask me), but it is my opinion that people should be allowed to state their experiences and opinions and not constantly be afraid someone will scream they are spamming or trolling - just because it doesn't fit the "both companies are equal period" mold.

I do expect people that favor AMD/ATI to attack and scream scram and threaten and coerce and not really tell it the way it is ( that does not mean you , Ket, as obviously you are just policing a thread as usual as I see everywhere), since it is true that AMD/ATI has a serious financial problem that could cause a much bigger bankruptcy problem at any time and that would mean even less driver team $$$ for fixing ati card owners issues, so they are basically screaming and fighting for their "systems very life".

I believe that's why things get contentious because in all honesty it is a valid issue for ATI card purchasers - if bankruptcy hits the drivers might stagnate - we need only think of the recent BFG closing as an example where end users were sometimes or often "left high and dry".

So that's my constructive criticism, I think end users can look at that and think about it, and perhaps moderate themselves with that information processed.

-
Maybe it will have an opposite effect and ATI card(amd) owners will really hammer it on since they realize "it might mean saving the company. LOL Just thought of that.

I give up.

Good luck for all of us on the Cayman release hopefully 4d shaders are true and even though I have had my "problems" with the suppression and lack of frankness I cited above it would be really nice to see a different shader architecture emerge on ATI cards and actually have something NEW there - so this will be ( if the shaders are actually the new 4d) the first exciting ATI release for me since the HD2900.

[SiliconDoc]

You can always properly set your monitor up via your actual monitor settings, not driver panels. If you did, you can likely clear those issues right up by adjusting your monitors sharpness levels slightly. Since I done this on my monitor, text is actually slightly crisper than with my ATI card. Colour and gamma has never been a problem for me because I always properly adjust my monitor settings and don't use the crap presets.

Exactly correct and is exactly what I was explaining to my friend when I read the less than convincing "links" that were provided concerning the 2d comparison statements by the other commenter.

I would like to say this though: A long time ago, there was an ATI Mach 32 pci videocard with I believe 512 ram on it that had some absolutely BEAUTIFUL 2D rendering, and a business artist and friend of mine wound up with it and when we tried to replace it we wound up pulling the alternate card ( also an ATI ) and putting that wonderful mach32 back in.
I also saw some impressive Matrox (pci) solutions, that nowadays are really too slow. Way back then I didn't see Nvidia(3dfx) cards that displayed in 2D as well.
Since the alternate ATI card was not up to snuff, I suppose there could be some sort of exceptions around still - not sure what those would be and manufacturing seems to be much more standardized, but I suppose it is possible.

[blindbox]

I have one simple question. Are you the same SiliconDoc that has been trolling anandtech's ATI reviews?

He got banned.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2849/?all=true

Some fanboyism example.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2745/?all=true

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2689/?all=true