Radeon HD 6850 & 6870 reviews...

[Dimitriman]

I'm waiting for Bulldozer and Sandybridge for my next system purchase when I'll do a full upgrade... Or a big market collapse.

[kadozer]

Well the hype is dead but this thread is still interesting to read through

PS: All the "AMD drivers suck and Nvidia has less problems"= tech world version of Obama birthers and flatworlders

[cegras]

Now THIS we can agree on.

I'm one of the biggest "sit and wait" advocates on this site, but we all have friends who just have to have the newest toys.

Only reason I got my GTX 460 was because someone wanted my 4850(to crossfire with his) and made me an offer I could refuse, and I got it for a STEAL. Reason I had the 4850? Someone wanted to buy my 8800GTX to SLi it, and I actually made money on that deal. If it wasn't for these occurrences I'd still happily be using my old 8800GTX. I'd have liked these cards to be beasts, if for nothing else, because someone wants me to build them a system with a 460 1 GB wants to buy mine, and it would've been a solid chance for a free upgrade.

None the less, looking forward to Cayman(whatever AMD decide to name it, I'm done speculating that) and seeing what it brings to the table. If they price it right and release it before I build that PC, it may still end up in my system.



A lot of people actually do buy a card at best buy and have them install it there... Yes, there ARE people that are that computer illiterate. I remember when my buddy chris bought a radeon 9800pro over the x800pro because "the number was higher". Luckily, he brought it to me to install, and I MADE him take it back.

Having essentially 5870 performance for $100 less isn't exciting? The 68xx series 'mid end' slot almost directly into the old 58xx series. That's a mid-end high-end exchange.

[Sadasius]

Well now that we know what they little guys are I am awaiting the freaks of GPU power.

[Mad Pistol]

Personally, seeing how powerful the 6870 is compared to my current 5870, I'm really tempted to give my fiance my faster (and much cooler running) 5870 to replace her current 4870. Then, I'll get 2 6870's and slap them into my system.

5870= roughly $370 currently

2x 6870 = $520, but you get a 80% performance gain!


Talk about breathing new life into my system without breaking the bank!


I do want to wait for Cayman to hit the market though. That should shake up the GTX 480's current spot.

[zerazax]

I do want to wait for Cayman to hit the market though. That should shake up the GTX 480's current spot.

Lets just put it this way. Barts XT is rated at 151W and is between 5850 and 5870 performance.

Cayman XT is rated at > 225W and is larger than a 5870's die and has more architecture changes/add-ons.

Cayman XT is going to be a beast...

[DilTech]

Having essentially 5870 performance for $100 less isn't exciting? The 68xx series 'mid end' slot almost directly into the old 58xx series. That's a mid-end high-end exchange.

A mid to high-end exchange is the 4850 matching the 8800gtx. Or the GTX 460 beating the GTX 285... Or the 6600GT matching the 9800XT... Or the 7600GT beating the 6800Ultra. Again, don't get me started on the 9500/9600 from ATi or the GeforceTi4200 and it's sheer abilities.

I mean, there's models of the GTX 460 that match a GTX 470 in performance out of the box. We've had the ability the match the $350 price range at $200 for awhile now.

So no, I'm still not excited, because frankly this card isn't doing anything we haven't already seen since the summer. I just expect more out of a "next generation" part I suppose. Either that, or I'm getting to the point that I am no longer easily impressed. I'm just use to next gen mid-range cards that actually meet or BEAT the pre-existing high end.

[Johnny87au]

Having essentially 5870 performance for $100 less isn't exciting? The 68xx series 'mid end' slot almost directly into the old 58xx series. That's a mid-end high-end exchange.

Not as good as the 5870s but not far behind, fail thing is though they only come in 1gb cards.. Im gonna wait for there high end gpu's next year!

[blindbox]

A mid to high-end exchange is the 4850 matching the 8800gtx. Or the GTX 460 beating the GTX 285... Or the 6600GT matching the 9800XT... Or the 7600GT beating the 6800Ultra. Again, don't get me started on the 9500/9600 from ATi or the GeforceTi4200 and it's sheer abilities.

I mean, there's models of the GTX 460 that match a GTX 470 in performance out of the box. We've had the ability the match the $350 price range at $200 for awhile now.

So no, I'm still not excited, because frankly this card isn't doing anything we haven't already seen since the summer. I just expect more out of a "next generation" part I suppose. Either that, or I'm getting to the point that I am no longer easily impressed. I'm just use to next gen mid-range cards that actually meet or BEAT the pre-existing high end.

Patience, fun times next month.

Barts is good and all, but it's the same old performance. Love the enhancements AMD did though.

[Johnny87au]

Patience, fun times next month.

Barts is good and all, but it's the same old performance. Love the enhancements AMD did though.

true that, lets see how nvidia and amd battle it out with there high end products!!

[Yvese]

true that, lets see how nvidia and amd battle it out with there high end products!!

Hopefully the battle will be so fierce that we'll see the 6970 for only $349

[DilTech]

Hopefully the battle will be so fierce that we'll see the 6970 for only $349

:::edit:::

That would remind me of the days before the 8800GTX... Remember the x1900xt/x1950xt? Practically identical performance to the x1900xtx/x1950xtx for only about $300.

[tajoh111]

:::edit:::

That would remind me of the days before the 8800GTX... Remember the x1900xt/x1950xt? Practically identical performance to the x1900xtx/x1950xtx for only about $300.

Competition needs to happen for a 6970 at 350 or less. Barts is bigger than juniper and is 80 dollars more expensive than it and in a couple tables is the new midrange(replacement for same area as juniper). Cayman is rumored to be even bigger than the 5870 and the price of the 5870 was 399, so I am expecting something around 500 dollars.

[spursindonesia]

Competition needs to happen for a 6970 at 350 or less. Barts is bigger than juniper and is 80 dollars more expensive than it and in a couple tables is the new midrange(replacement for same area as juniper). Cayman is rumored to be even bigger than the 5870 and the price of the 5870 was 399, so I am expecting something around 500 dollars.

Juniper is exactly half Cypress, so if Cayman is double of Bart (2240 SP 112 TMU 64 ROP 512 bit @500 mm^2 2 GB VRAM), and score 16.000-17.000 3DMark Vantage Xtreme, i think US$ 500 price tag is well worth every centz of it. Oversimplification at its best form, i thought this forum members aren't that ignorant ?

Your pessimism and negativism toward AMD graphic division is just more and more amusing by day, LOL.

US$ 249 at the very least for Bart --> debunked
US$ 500+ for Cayman --> Interesting huh ? One month isn't such a long wait i presume, LOL.

[Johnny87au]

Hopefully the battle will be so fierce that we'll see the 6970 for only $349

hahaha u made my day!

[tajoh111]

Juniper is exactly half Cypress, so if Cayman is double of Bart (2240 SP 112 TMU 64 ROP 512 bit @500 mm^2 2 GB VRAM), and score 16.000-17.000 3DMark Vantage Xtreme, i think US$ 500 price tag is well worth every centz of it. Oversimplification at its best form, i thought this forum members aren't that ignorant ?

Your pessimism and negativism toward AMD graphic division is just more and more amusing by day, LOL.

US$ 249 at the very least for Bart --> debunked
US$ 500+ for Cayman --> Interesting huh ? One month isn't such a long wait i presume, LOL.

First off, this is simply a rude post. Are you trying to get in a flaming war with such a smartass post?

I might slightly pessimistic(which in this case is saying AMD is acting like a business rather than a charity) but I tend to layoff the personal attacks unless it is provoked. I think the only thing I called you is optimistic and I have always left the provoking smiley faces out.

249 is close enough to 239 honestly, I think your kind of splitting hairs on that one. The more optimistic people were thinking barts xt was going to be 199.

I'm not allowed to have pessimistic speculation about AMD(and I remember you were talking about the freedom of speculation), but everyone including their dogs are allowed to have it for NV? Heck I am probably more pessimistic about NV than AMD lately. I said I am likely to buy antilles even if it comes out at 650 or 700, I like AMD cards as the one I am using currently is an AMD/ATI card. It seems like your singling out my pessimism to one company to make me something I am not.

I been talking about NV being completely ed until they make a new architecture. I think my pessimism for NV graphic division is just as strong if not stronger.

I don't think 499 is really that pessimistic about Cayman. There are a lot of rumors that suggest it is biggest chip ever for AMM. The price of AMD midrange has jumped and the cayman series in general has a new moniker(the 69xx series) to likely justify the new pricing(as barts was shifted so it could be priced higher).




I think this old chart gives us alot of hints about pricing as it's we take in the name shift into account it was accurate for Barts.

That being a barts xt being around the 5830 price(which was 239 at launch).

The chart also suggest cayman is going to priced higher than the 5870.

The pricing for the 6870 is fair for what it is and its not really a huge bargain considering they could have sold it for much lower considering the chip size. I think AMD knows they have the momentum, and as a result, this round is all about making money.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

The gtx 460 only picked up 5.5% and it was basically the best priced/best performing champ. To me, this is a sign NV has lost alot of respect and as a result, AMD doesn't have to be nearly as kind with it pricing. People I think right now prefer the AMD name more than the NV name. It already has 80+ percent of the directx 11 marketshare and since AMD is selling pretty much only directx 11 cards, its more than comfortable with the marketshare it has because it is the dominant shareholder. It doesn't need to worry about pricing their cards aggressively for strong competition because as the gtx 460 has shown, even when the competition has better pricing/performance, the AMD brand is selling better. The stronger branding of nvidia has allowed NV to survive for a while(post g80) and make money, but for directx 11, has really been AMD round, they know it and I think unless their is competition, they are going to cash in like they won the lottery.

If you make inferences about last generation and the supply and cost of the 5870. It makes little business sense to sell cayman xt for 350. They are going to have just as little quantities, no competition is in site unless gf100 really surprises and it for marketing reasons is armed with the new 6970 name to make it seem like a bargain compared to the 5970(cayman won't be $700 dollars).

This might make AMD sound pessimistic because they kind of sound like dicks for pricing, but they are a business and I think any company, especially a company so in need of money, is going to do whatever they can to make it.

Honestly, holy epic dogs poop. Cayman scoring 16,000-17,000 in vantage xtreme is far far to optimistic. And alot more unreasonable than what you consider me being pessimistic. A 5970 scores 13,000 and this is the same node they are making cayman on. No wonder you consider what I say pessimistic when your so ridiculously optimistic.A 5970 black edition that cost 1000 dollars only scores 15,5k.

Cayman doesn't need such a score to be priced at 500 dollars, it just need to significantly beat the gtx 480 and consume less power(this is a given) doing it. Both are very achievable. I think it's amazing to also think that I wouldn't consider performance for AMD to price their card 500 dollars and simply label me is ignorant, that just an insult. I can start seeing the leak score of x12000 being true now and that type of performance can already command a 500 dollar price tag and perhaps a bit more. The more this competition get's lopsided, the closer cayman xt will creep from 450 to 600 dollars(which I think is the absolute max they can charge for the top cayman). There could be cheaper cayman(maybe a low clocked a decent amount of shaders disabled for 350-400) but the top cayman is going to be pretty expensive.

[Das Capitolin]

I feel compelled to add my two cents, especially after wasting six hour of test time and scrapping my entire Sapphire Radeon HD 6850 and CrossFire reviews because of sample 'doping'.

1120-Core "Fixed" Radeon HD 6850 Review Samples Shipped to Media

I'm not going to say it was intentional, but the mere fact that nobody at Sapphire or AMD said anything despite being told of the problem a week before launch is rather alarming.

[Mad Pistol]

Cayman XT will probably be around 75-80% of the speed a 5970 is. That being said, a dual chip solution based on Cayman Pro or Cayman XT will be extremely fast, and it will probably be a Tessellation monster as well. Just seeing the improvements in tessellation performance on the 6850 and 6870 is great. They're now at least competitive, even if Nvidia still has the edge. Overall performance is better than the GTX 460 though. The 6870 is also faster in Far Cry 2 than the GTX 460 AND the 5870!!! That's a game that has always favored Nvidia cards, and somehow, ATI has created a card that is simply stunning on that game... Now, I'm not suggesting anything, but perhaps we will see similar performance gains in other TWIMTBP titles. If so, there is seriously good reason for nvidia to be shaking in their boots at the moment.


http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon...6870-review/16



Remeber, this is the game that Nvidia used to demo it's first Fermi cards. The 6870 runs away with it compared to the GTX 460 and HD 5870. Plus, the HD 6870 is only 7 frames shy of the GTX 295! What did AMD do to make these cards perform so well on this game? Even the lowly 6850 beats the HD 5870!!!

[spursindonesia]

Phew, long post there mate ? Appreciate the effort, but so much pessimism can only take you so far, let's just say it's very very irritating.

Why i call you "somewhat" ignorant -not making direct, personal accusation right ? You make a STRAIGHT analogy beetween Northern Island pricing structure vs Evergreen one, spesifically beetween Juniper vs Bart MSRP launch prices and their correlation with & implication toward their bigger brothers, Cypress and Cayman. Well fella, they will certainly NOT be exactly comparable, since Bart doesn't exactly replace Juniper in AMD's market segmentation:



Fact that the competitive nature of DX 11 scenery has changed, nVidia now have competing products, affecting AMD pricing structure & strategy to some degree. Bart WILL NOT be an exact half Cayman like Juniper was to Cypress, the 40 nm process & AMD graphic div. own principle won't allow that. Yes, when launched, Cayman might stand up there on its own as the king of the hill of GPU chip, doesn't mean AMD will have all the leverage to price it at such unacceptable level of US$ 500+ like you suggested & believed. On its launch day, Bart XT is already priced reasonably @US$ 239, and one month from now, with the advent of AIBs in house designed board, getting it to US$ 219-229 level won't be all that difficult (if TSMC 40 nm production permitted). While Cayman will be AMD fastest single chip, it won't be its highest end product, there WILL be a dual Cayman for Antilles card later on.

Even the optimist of fanATic doesn't think Cayman will be more than 50% faster against Bart, pricing it @US$ 500+ has very little merit in it, and the way AMD priced Bart cards recently, your pessimism is just so unfounded, and clearly can be regarded as an annoying negativism toward AMD. Just look at the slide, Cayman will only move upward a little against Cypress segmentation speaking, a drastic launch price jump from US$ 379 of Cypress to US$ 500+ Cayman will simply be a total fail on AMD part, should that scenario really happen. US$ 500+ Cayman XT value in the mass market will be wiped by crossfire Bart XT or SLI GTX 470, creating animosity among its follower+destroying the goodwill created in the past, and nVidia will have a field day for their marketing dept.

AMD won't forever be supply constrained by TSMC 40 nm process, AMD has performance & cost leadership when HD 5870 launched vs GTX 285, yet your unfounded negativism didn't happen back then when AMD was actually being supply limited with Cypress chip for HD 58xx generation. AMD can easily priced HD 5870 @US$ 449, HD 5850 @US$ 359 and still lead the price/performance contest against GTX 285, didn't happen, did it ? You forget the nature of AMD graphic division ever since ATi was bought by AMD. Their focus is beating nVidia strong market domination in graphic market, especially in consumer graphic where it has the most chance in achieving that goal. Their very competitive pricing strategy wasn't based on charity, LOL, but the longterm viability & survivability against its nemesis demand it that way. AMD might just reach parity in overall discrete graphic market & quite dominant in DX 11 market with their headstart entrance, but nVidia is still the have of graphic industry, with its great finance situation, strong R&D, and super profitable professional graphic market domination.

Pricing Cayman XT @US$ 500+ will not be in AMD's best interest and i don't think they would be as foolish or evil as you pictured in your posts. Perhaps expecting it under US$ 400 is too much optimism for your taste, but US$ 429-469 is a very very fair pricing suggestion for Cayman XT, if the opinion comes from people that bear no negativism toward AMD. Personally, i believe Cayman XT launch price will be doubled of Bart XT street price at that moment.

Okay, if you find my assesment of your unbalanced negativism toward AMD insulting, i apologize. But i will put my credibility where my mouth is. If Cayman XT was launched for US$ 500+ like you suggested, i will stop posting in XSys forum for straight SIX months from the moment the official, correct info announced. If not ? Well, then perhaps i shouldn't apologize so early. Later .

[kuroikenshi]

Okay, if you find my assesment of your unbalanced negativism toward AMD insulting, i apologize. But i will put my credibility where my mouth is. If Cayman XT was launched for US$ 500+ like you suggested, i will stop posting in XSys forum for straight SIX months from the moment the official, correct info announced. If not ? Well, then perhaps i shouldn't apologize so early. Later .

I will be waiting to see the resolution of this more than the anticipation of the release of cayman, however I don't think you will stop posting anytime soon

[StAndrew]

I know the 460GTX beats the stock clocked 6870 when overclocked (FERMI scales very well with clocks). And I know the 6870 overclocks very well. My question is, how well does the 6870 scale when overclocked?

[zerazax]

Supposedly the biggest gains come from opening memory bandwidth

[zanzabar]

@tajoh, ati/amd would never use a non-symetric buss they would have to change from a direct access to a token ring model to do that and that would defeat the purpose of changing the buss to wider in the 1st place, it will ether be a 256 or a 512bit


also with the 68xx was it ever confirmed the scalier count per physical shader to be less than 5

[tajoh111]

Phew, long post there mate ? Appreciate the effort, but so much pessimism can only take you so far, let's just say it's very very irritating.

Why i call you "somewhat" ignorant -not making direct, personal accusation right ? You make a STRAIGHT analogy beetween Northern Island pricing structure vs Evergreen one, spesifically beetween Juniper vs Bart MSRP launch prices and their correlation with & implication toward their bigger brothers, Cypress and Cayman. Well fella, they will certainly NOT be exactly comparable, since Bart doesn't exactly replace Juniper in AMD's market segmentation:



Fact that the competitive nature of DX 11 scenery has changed, nVidia now have competing products, affecting AMD pricing structure & strategy to some degree. Bart WILL NOT be an exact half Cayman like Juniper was to Cypress, the 40 nm process & AMD graphic div. own principle won't allow that. Yes, when launched, Cayman might stand up there on its own as the king of the hill of GPU chip, doesn't mean AMD will have all the leverage to price it at such unacceptable level of US$ 500+ like you suggested & believed. On its launch day, Bart XT is already priced reasonably @US$ 239, and one month from now, with the advent of AIBs in house designed board, getting it to US$ 219-229 level won't be all that difficult (if TSMC 40 nm production permitted). While Cayman will be AMD fastest single chip, it won't be its highest end product, there WILL be a dual Cayman for Antilles card later on.

Even the optimist of fanATic doesn't think Cayman will be more than 50% faster against Bart, pricing it @US$ 500+ has very little merit in it, and the way AMD priced Bart cards recently, your pessimism is just so unfounded, and clearly can be regarded as an annoying negativism toward AMD. Just look at the slide, Cayman will only move upward a little against Cypress segmentation speaking, a drastic launch price jump from US$ 379 of Cypress to US$ 500+ Cayman will simply be a total fail on AMD part, should that scenario really happen. US$ 500+ Cayman XT value in the mass market will be wiped by crossfire Bart XT or SLI GTX 470, creating animosity among its follower+destroying the goodwill created in the past, and nVidia will have a field day for their marketing dept.

AMD won't forever be supply constrained by TSMC 40 nm process, AMD has performance & cost leadership when HD 5870 launched vs GTX 285, yet your unfounded negativism didn't happen back then when AMD was actually being supply limited with Cypress chip for HD 58xx generation. AMD can easily priced HD 5870 @US$ 449, HD 5850 @US$ 359 and still lead the price/performance contest against GTX 285, didn't happen, did it ? You forget the nature of AMD graphic division ever since ATi was bought by AMD. Their focus is beating nVidia strong market domination in graphic market, especially in consumer graphic where it has the most chance in achieving that goal. Their very competitive pricing strategy wasn't based on charity, LOL, but the longterm viability & survivability against its nemesis demand it that way. AMD might just reach parity in overall discrete graphic market & quite dominant in DX 11 market with their headstart entrance, but nVidia is still the have of graphic industry, with its great finance situation, strong R&D, and super profitable professional graphic market domination.

Pricing Cayman XT @US$ 500+ will not be in AMD's best interest and i don't think they would be as foolish or evil as you pictured in your posts. Perhaps expecting it under US$ 400 is too much optimism for your taste, but US$ 429-469 is a very very fair pricing suggestion for Cayman XT, if the opinion comes from people that bear no negativism toward AMD. Personally, i believe Cayman XT launch price will be doubled of Bart XT street price at that moment.

Okay, if you find my assesment of your unbalanced negativism toward AMD insulting, i apologize. But i will put my credibility where my mouth is. If Cayman XT was launched for US$ 500+ like you suggested, i will stop posting in XSys forum for straight SIX months from the moment the official, correct info announced. If not ? Well, then perhaps i shouldn't apologize so early. Later .

Don't you think that chart is already showing cayman to be more expensive than cypress? $500 dollars or 479 is not that unreasonable a price. Nvidia does it and they have to because their yields are so bad and their chips are so large.

I still don't see why raising the price to maximize profit is considered really that pessimistic about a company? Its simply natural, especially if supplies are limited and the demand is there(its Christmas time pretty soon). I think your mistaken my pessimism for being pragmatic.

I think your thinking too much of AMD good will. Much of the value pricing they have had lately has been to do lately with strong competition. Any business will take advantage of another if they show signs of weakness in a competitive market. I think AMD is in the perfect position to do that.

Lets get this straight, your calling me ignorant and think I am using simply juniper/cypress pricing scheme as my only evidence. WTF,I have presented so much other evidence.Tables, charts, rumors of chip size, naming, competition conditions, history and yes, barts xt pricing(this was the first time a rv940 part was named and priced like this). You simply ignoring this evidence is by definition .......

There are so many signs that cayman xt is going to be more expensive than cypress and this is ok, they are a business. However me as the consumer, I would rather pay less than more. If I was a stock holder, I would want them to charge more.

My original response was to someone saying the 6970 was going to be 350 dollars. Your personal thoughts are cayman xt is going to be priced double barts xt or $478. I said the price is going to be around 500 dollars? Your estimate is closer to my 500 dollar price than this person 350 dollar price and because of this 22 dollars your going ballistic when your own guts are far closer to what I am suggesting. Don't you think my suggesting pricing of a 6970 at 500 dollars is more likely than the 6970 at 350 dollars, given the charts and size of cayman?

"US$ 500+ Cayman XT value in the mass market will be wiped by crossfire Bart XT or SLI GTX 470"

Two 5770 outperformed a 5870 and it didn't stop the 5870 from costing more than two of those cards by about 100 dollars(with scalping) and I am not sure how long NVidia wants to sustain a 250 dollars gtx 470. Not to mention $379 was not the bargain your making it out to be for the 5870. The gtx 295 was 499 and the 4870x2 was 399. Pricing it at 449 would have made the reviews substantially less favorable, as some reviewers were clearly not very impressed like anandtech. A 80 dollar price jump would have turned the positive reviews into meh ones, and the meh reviews into negative ones.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3587

"The easiest kind of product for us to write about is the kind that’s clearly superior to its competition. The hardest kind to write about is the kind that’s stuck in the middle. For the 5870, we have the latter case."

AMD/ATI already has the dominance in the market(80%+). That older directx 10 market share doesn't matter anymore because they no longer sell those cards. They don't need to put up crazy aggressive pricing, at this point because they already accomplished the gain market share thing.

Nvidia priced their cards crazy expensive(600+) when they had the lionshare of the market. It might be difference market conditions, but something around 500 dollars is possible as people were paying 700 dollars for the 5970 and they were still sold out.

Honestly, if you think of me as pessimistic. Why don't you get so annoyed when you read NVidia pessimism which I regularly do, yet you don't seem to notice as much. There is 100x times more on this board and honestly its far more pessimistic in general. (people want nvidia to go bankrupt, a couple people wanted the CEO to die and people get happy when they make bad products).

[Lanek]

I know the 460GTX beats the stock clocked 6870 when overclocked (FERMI scales very well with clocks). And I know the 6870 overclocks very well. My question is, how well does the 6870 scale when overclocked?

good question, but until reviewers do a complete review of stock OC cards,or OC vs OC ( and not stock 6870 vs 875mhz GTX460 as many review ) or user report it for us, it will be not easy to respond it ...